Degree subject compliance

MoneyMilo

Today I got an email from the Dean of Arts telling me I cannot graduate with my joint major degree (History&Politics) as I did one more History subject (5 credits) than Politics. I seemed to have lost track of all my different credits so basically I had to have done one more Politics subject instead. **** times.

I can't get a reply until after June 27th it seems...

Anyone know what the procedure for this is or what I will have to do?? Thanks

Gae

MoneyMilo wrote: »

Today I got an email from the Dean of Arts telling me I cannot graduate with my joint major degree (History&Politics) as I did one more History subject (5 credits) than Politics. I seemed to have lost track of all my different credits so basically I had to have done one more Politics subject instead. **** times.

I can't get a reply until after June 27th it seems...

Anyone know what the procedure for this is or what I will have to do?? Thanks

Have you spoken to the Programme Office? I presume they'll still let you graduate - just not with the joint major. Maybe the modules you chose fits some major/minor combination.

liamygunner29

That's mad. Think I may be in similar situation next year, can you let me know what happens?

parker kent

You might have to do an extra module to redress the imbalance. I say might as only the programme office will be able to tell you for sure.

There really should be more checks and balances to stop people taking the wrong amount of credits.

MoneyMilo

Programme Office can't tell me anything more than the email. Whether it's correct or not, dropping me with the bombshell that 'I cannot graduate etc' and then telling me I can't get clarification until the 27th takes the piss. If they can tell me this now, then they could have told me directly when I still had a chance to correct things, rather then the copious emails they send you with general registration info.

The fact is yes, I should have been more alert, but the SIS system let this happen. It safeguards against timetable clashes and restricts you in other different ways, but not this? You could argue that quite a few of my history subjects have been quasi-politics and vice-versa anyway.

littlefriend

Sorry to hear that OP.

Does anyone know where the requirements are listed? Had a look there and can't find it. I'm doing Arts and going in to 3rd year so want to make sure all is ok w/ my registration.

thanks

OneOfThem Stumbled

MoneyMilo wrote: »

Programme Office can't tell me anything more than the email. Whether it's correct or not, dropping me with the bombshell that 'I cannot graduate etc' and then telling me I can't get clarification until the 27th takes the piss. If they can tell me this now, then they could have told me directly when I still had a chance to correct things, rather then the copious emails they send you with general registration info.

The fact is yes, I should have been more alert, but the SIS system let this happen. It safeguards against timetable clashes and restricts you in other different ways, but not this? You could argue that quite a few of my history subjects have been quasi-politics and vice-versa anyway.

That sounds complete bull****. You were in the joint major program and if you completed all your modules you should be awarded the joint major.

Just wondering OP: did you take any electives in Politics. If so you should be able to say: look! Here's an extra 5 credits in Politics - happy?

This should particularly be the case if you have any elective in politics from stage 2 (i.e. second or third year)

spudington16

MoneyMilo wrote: »

The fact is yes, I should have been more alert, but the SIS system let this happen. It safeguards against timetable clashes and restricts you in other different ways, but not this? You could argue that quite a few of my history subjects have been quasi-politics and vice-versa anyway.

I'm sorry to hear you're in this situation, OP. It's incredible that UCD can drop a bombshell like that on you, then refuse to talk to you for several weeks.

However, in fairness to SIS web, it's not its role to police the classes you take, and how that choice affects the make-up of your degree - that's your own personal responsiblity. The system's role is to prevent timetable clashes and ensure you've taken enough credits overall - that's it.

Zephyr91

That sounds really REALLY crap and unfair.

So I'm going into second year Arts can I just ask something? I'm doing Irish and English. So I assume that I'd have to do 10 Irish modules, 10 English module, and 4 electives throughout 2nd / 3rd year. But what if one of my elective modules happens to be an English module, meaning I'd technically be doing more English modules than Irish ones. Is this a problem? Would I be in the same situation that the OP is in?

Sorry if this is a stupid question and sorry for temporarily taking over your thread.

parker kent

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

That sounds complete bull****. You were in the joint major program and if you completed all your modules you should be awarded the joint major.

Just wondering OP: did you take any electives in Politics. If so you should be able to say: look! Here's an extra 5 credits in Politics - happy?

This should particularly be the case if you have any elective in politics from stage 2 (i.e. second or third year)

But it is not BS. A joint major means you have to do 50 credits in each subject, so the OP did not complete all their modules. It may sound harsh, but people are made aware of this when they start stage 2.

I did say earlier there should be more effort made to prevent this from happening, but it is your degree after all.

LUPE

It sounds fair enough. Do you really deserve a degree anyway if you can't follow simple instructions?

xxzaraxx

MoneyMilo wrote: »

Today I got an email from the Dean of Arts telling me I cannot graduate with my joint major degree (History&Politics) as I did one more History subject (5 credits) than Politics. I seemed to have lost track of all my different credits so basically I had to have done one more Politics subject instead. **** times.

I can't get a reply until after June 27th it seems...

Anyone know what the procedure for this is or what I will have to do?? Thanks

I got the same email today... devastated

supernutrino

xxzaraxx wrote: »

I got the same email today... devastated

Why?
What difference does it make except to make one major and another minor? Surely you can still graduate?

WeeBushy

supernutrino wrote: »

Why?
What difference does it make except to make one major and another minor? Surely you can still graduate?

Because for a major/minor degree you need 60 credits for your major and 40 for the minor. They both have a 55/45 split.

supernutrino

WeeBushy wrote: »

Because for a major/minor degree you need 60 credits for your major and 40 for the minor. They both have a 55/45 split.

So they need to go back and do other stuff to compensate?
In that case will have a 60-45 split can you graduate with 5 more than you should have done?

WeeBushy

supernutrino wrote: »

So they need to go back and do other stuff to compensate?
In that case will have a 60-45 split can you graduate with 5 more than you should have done?

It's not entirely clear, as parkerkent has already said, only the programme office will know exactly what they have to do.

But it appears like they will have to take an extra module so to make up the shortfall, and will then graduate with an extra module, which is why it will cost more. Extra credits don't affect the GPA of the stage or degree, however.

parker kent

supernutrino wrote: »

Why?
What difference does it make except to make one major and another minor? Surely you can still graduate?

Well they obviously wanted a joint major. Plus as is said above, they don't meet the requirements for a major/minor either.

This happens every year.

supernutrino

WeeBushy wrote: »

It's not entirely clear, as parkerkent has already said, only the programme office will know exactly what they have to do.

But it appears like they will have to take an extra module so to make up the shortfall, and will then graduate with an extra module, which is why it will cost more. Extra credits don't affect the GPA of the stage or degree, however.

So its like leaving cert subjects only calculating the top 6 for points, regardless of how many subjects you do.
I had assumed the SIS would flag any anomalies with this sorta thing when your registering modules, if it does not then it should.
Better go over my own degree and make sure everything balances out to avoid this next year..

WeeBushy

supernutrino wrote: »

So its like leaving cert subjects only calculating the top 6 for points, regardless of how many subjects you do.

No, the 120 credits earned in Stage 2 are what make up your degree GPA. In this instance they are 5 credits short in one of their joint majors. Therefore what will probably/might happen is that they will return next semester to do one more module (and this is possible in others instances as well), earning the extra 5 credits to have a joint major (50 credits in each subject). It will appear on their transcript and will mean they have earned 50 credits in both majors, however the extra module taken next semester will not count towards their degree GPA.

supernutrino wrote: »

I had assumed the SIS would flag any anomalies with this sorta thing when your registering modules, if it does not then it should.
Better go over my own degree and make sure everything balances out to avoid this next year..

Well that is not the purpose of SIS, and it is made clear to students at the beginning of Stage 2 that it is their responsibility to ensure their degree choices are correct. However in saying that there should be more effort on UCD's part to ensure that this situation does not occur as its a very costly mistake.

supernutrino

WeeBushy wrote: »

No, the 120 credits earned in Stage 2 are what make up your degree GPA. In this instance they are 5 credits short in one of their joint majors. Therefore what will probably/might happen is that they will return next semester to do one more module (and this is possible in others instances as well), earning the extra 5 credits to have a joint major (50 credits in each subject). It will appear on their transcript and will mean they have earned 50 credits in both majors, however the extra module taken next semester will not count towards their degree GPA.



Well that is not the purpose of SIS, and it is made clear to students at the beginning of Stage 2 that it is their responsibility to ensure their degree choices are correct. However in saying that there should be more effort on UCD's part to ensure that this situation does not occur as its a very costly mistake.

Could have fooled us its not the purpose of SIS.
When your registering for modules it tells you what your requirements etc are you need to do x options x elective x core.

IF you follow those requirements and then UCD turns around and says you didn't do it right whos fault is that yours or ucd?

WeeBushy

supernutrino wrote: »

Could have fooled us its not the purpose of SIS.
When your registering for modules it tells you what your requirements etc are you need to do x options x elective x core.

IF you follow those requirements and then UCD turns around and says you didn't do it right whos fault is that yours or ucd?

I'm not trying to fool anyone, what I was saying is that its not the purpose of SIS to ensure you have chosen the correct amount of credits for a joint major or major/minor etc. Therefore, as harsh as it is, its your fault.

supernutrino

WeeBushy wrote: »

I'm not trying to fool anyone, what I was saying is that its not the purpose of SIS to ensure you have chosen the correct amount of credits for a joint major or major/minor etc. Therefore, as harsh as it is, its your fault.

They sure hide that well, I've been here a few years now and ive always thought the SIS would warn you of taking too much of x or too little of y same way it does timetable clashes, your number of credits and defects are even displayed on the right hand side.
You could easily be led to think the SIS warned you of such things.
If thats not what its for then honestly what the **** IS it for?

I had nothing "made clear" to me otherwise, other than a throwaway generic disclaimer.

Its amazing to me that we have the technology to prevent errors like this easily but UCD just doesn't use it.
Typical UCD, tryina avoid responsibility instead of using good management.

WeeBushy

This (http://www.ucd.ie/acshs/registration10_stage2_generalinfo.pdf) was linked to in an email sent to students last summer.

From that link:

The Registration System
During Registration, BA Stage 2 students see the entire 120 credit Stage 2. As you move through your Stage you will see what you have completed as well as what you have to complete. The details of the registration screens will be explained elsewhere but you will have to be clear about what you need to do. This is where this document is important. It is important that you give this part of the process your full attention and that you engage fully with it. You have the primary responsibility to ensure that you meet the requirements for the Stage and the degree overall. The registration system will only record the choices you have made, it will not police them. Your compliance with degree regulations is checked only when you complete 180 credits (240 credits for International Students) and you will not graduate unless you have met the requirements of the degree.
Just because the registration system allows you to do something, does not mean that you are meeting the requirements of the degree.

It is your responsibility to ensure that you have completed sufficient credit in each subject to satisfy the requirements of your major/minor as appropriate e.g. if you are taking a Joint Major in History and English, you must have completed 50 credits from the History Joint Major structure and 50 credits from the English Joint Major structure.

Essentially we are responsible for ensuring that our choices comply with our degree. And that's the way it should be, we're adults after all.

In saying that it absolutely needs to be made more clear to students and flagged more visibly as it is an unfortunate and shitty situation to find yourself in, like the OP.

spudington16

WeeBushy wrote: »

This (http://www.ucd.ie/acshs/registration10_stage2_generalinfo.pdf)Essentially we are responsible for ensuring that our choices comply with our degree. And that's the way it should be, we're adults after all.

In saying that it absolutely needs to be made more clear to students and flagged more visibly as it is an unfortunate and shitty situation to find yourself in, like the OP.

I think that UCD was perfectly open and direct on this one; your quote displays that. It's not UCD's fault if students choose to ignore warnings like this or what one poster described as "generic disclaimers".

This, for once, isn't an instance of poor management by UCD, as suggested by a poster - it's carelessness and finger-pointing by students who can't handle something as basic as module selection and are now looking for a scapegoat.

I feel bad for them, but it's on them and no-one else.

parker kent

UCD are not hiding anything, it is made clear in several instances that SIS will not ensure that your choices are degree compliant. The onus is on the student. Should they feel unsure, go to the programme office.

Maybe if people were less careless about a "throwaway generic disclaimer" they would notice that.

WeeBushy

Yeah I agree completely with the two of you. When I was saying it needs to be flagged better, I was thinking of something along the lines of a notice similar to the one in the link, 'It is your responsibility to ensure that you have completed sufficient credit in each subject to satisfy the requirements of your major/minor as appropriate', that should be placed as a last reminder before you go into the module registration section in SIS.

Ultimately, your degree = your responsibility to ensure it is in order.

*btw, this not a dig at the OP at all. I feel sorry for them and it is a terrible situation in which to find yourself.

parker kent

I agree with you with everything there. The OP has my sympathy and obviously made a genuine mistake.

supernutrino

spudington16 wrote: »

I think that UCD was perfectly open and direct on this one; your quote displays that. It's not UCD's fault if students choose to ignore warnings like this or what one poster described as "generic disclaimers".

This, for once, isn't an instance of poor management by UCD, as suggested by a poster - it's carelessness and finger-pointing by students who can't handle something as basic as module selection and are now looking for a scapegoat.

I feel bad for them, but it's on them and no-one else.

I never thought it was a mystery that you needed 50 and 50 for a joint major, just didn't know the exact ratio if any for a major/minor.

My puzzlement is why SIS, which is clearly capable of monitoring numbers of electives required and deficits etc, can't simply flash in red on the side "you have chosen an excess number of sociology modules" the same way it says "you have a 5 credits defecit for stage 2" and the like.
It would be a very simple modification.

Something being your responsibility does not mean you should receive no warning when your making a mistake, that kinda thinking is just spiteful.
Its your responsibility to ensure you have your fees paid, you still get a warning email saying "if your fees are not paid by x date a hold will be placed on your account"
Its your responsibility to ensure you have library books back on time, theres still a system to remind you of the dates and time they're due back.
Its students ultimate responsibility to make sure they've enough credits for completing a stage, yet SIS still warns them if they haven't done it.
It's students responsibility to make choose the right ratio of options to cores to electives, yet SIS still helps them make that choice more accurately, because thats what it was designed for, it was designed to make things easier in one area (otherwise we'd just do it manually), so I see no reason why it can't make things easier in another area and flash a warning if you choose excess modules in a subject.

Zephyr91

I completely agree with supernutrino.

Sierra Oscar

You may as well drop off an email to the Education Officer explaining the issue, worth a shot.

parker kent

It may not be as easy as you think for SIS to do what many here would like it to do. Think of many courses there are in UCD. Think of how many combinations of subjects available. It would be an enormous job to design SIS in a way that would track whether each person was fulfilling the needs for their course.

It is far easier for the person doing the course to track whether they are fulfilling the criteria for their course.

Raphael

supernutrino wrote: »

It would be a very simple modification.

As a matter of interest, is that claim based on actual knowledge, or are you just assuming it would be easy to do with absolutely no understanding of how the SIS backend works?

supernutrino

Raphael wrote: »

As a matter of interest, is that claim based on actual knowledge, or are you just assuming it would be easy to do with absolutely no understanding of how the SIS backend works?

It's not a claim, its a fact. The system already keeps track of module deficits so it therefore knows how many modules your taking, thus it could easily keep track of surpluses, as well as highlight this more visibly.
If a system central to a universitys functioning could not do something as simple as count, then we would need a new system.

This attitude is typical of bureaucrats in every organization, list the reasons and exuses why you can't do something and why its not your problem, instead of being constructive and trying to figure out how it can be done.

parker kent

supernutrino wrote: »

It's not a claim, its a fact. The system already keeps track of module deficits so it therefore knows how many modules your taking, thus it could easily keep track of surpluses, as well as highlight this more visibly.
If a system central to a universitys functioning could not do something as simple as count, then we would need a new system.

This attitude is typical of bureaucrats in every organization, list the reasons and exuses why you can't do something and why its not your problem, instead of being constructive and trying to figure out how it can be done.

This is exactly why UCD admin staff often feel like banging their heads on a table. Your posts about "bureaucrats" are getting laughable at this stage.

What you think is a simple task would be a mammoth undertaking.

spudington16

supernutrino wrote: »

It's not a claim, its a fact. The system already keeps track of module deficits so it therefore knows how many modules your taking, thus it could easily keep track of surpluses, as well as highlight this more visibly.

If a system central to a universitys functioning could not do something as simple as count, then we would need a new system.

This attitude is typical of bureaucrats in every organization, list the reasons and exuses why you can't do something and why its not your problem, instead of being constructive and trying to figure out how it can be done.

Ok, in relation to your first point: you still haven't demonstrated any familiarity with the running/programming of the system to justify your opinion that it would be a simple job to upgrade SIS web so it could police degree composition compliance. It could well be a mammoth job, but no-one in this thread appears to know exactly either way.

With regard to your second point, it comes down to you castigating the University because an undergraduate (more than likely an adult) went through three or four years of his degree without checking that he was in a position to graduate with the degree he wanted. An honours degree isn't a minor undertaking; he was careless, end of.

supernutrino

Ok, in relation to your first point: you still haven't demonstrated any familiarity with the running/programming of the system to justify your opinion that it would be a simple job to upgrade SIS web so it could police degree composition compliance. It could well be a mammoth job, but no-one in this thread appears to know exactly either way.

You don't need to know the ins and outs of the sytem to know a computer counting the number of 5's on someones file is not a mammoth task, cop on would ye :rolleyes: How many times do i need to say it THE SYSTEM ALREADY KEEPS TRACK OF THIS STUFF and notes deficits, so clearly it can note a surplus as well and highlight it.

With regard to your second point, it comes down to you castigating the University because an undergraduate (more than likely an adult) went through three or four years of his degree without checking that he was in a position to graduate with the degree he wanted. An honours degree isn't a minor undertaking; he was careless, end of.

I never mentioned the OP once.

Heres a challenge: try reading what I actually wrote instead of arguing with text that is not there.

My ACTUAL second point was that there tends to be a very conservative "heres why we can't do it" attitude in organizations with a lot of admin, instead of a "how can we" attitude. If people always desperately scrambled for reasons why they can't improve x y z, instead of looking for ways they can, nothing would ever improve.

It is not a radical suggestion to say a system that already highlights credit deficits should highlight surpluses too, only someone with a lazy and inflexiible attitude would kick up a storm over such a modest suggestion.

Reminds me of HSE staff saying its not their job to screw in a light bulb and creating a big issue over it, even though doing it would take 2 seconds and cause no hassle at all.

parker kent

There is a difference between noting a credit deficit and what you are talking about.

You have zero knowledge of what happens behind the scenes in UCD, so your "can-do" attitude posts are ridiculous. Oh wait I forgot that all UCD staff do is sit around and think of ways to blame students.

supernutrino

Ok were gonna go back to basics for you to spell this out, that you work in a university is pretty amazing given your complete lack of basic reasoning skills.

If a computer can note a deficit, (as it already does) its keeping track of the number of modules you are taking.
If it has the capability of highlighting that your only taking 45 (a deficit), then it has the capability of highlighting that your taking 55 (a surplus).
You have to go through this same system to enroll to the 55th module so the system knows your taking 55, displaying this in red on the right the same way it does when you are not taking enough is a very simple proposition, its using the same existing functions the system has to tell you something slightly different.

It already counts your modules, I'm saying it should display the number as a warning for a surplus the same way it does for you when you don't have enough.

In fact it would be better if it blocked you from taking an excess number of modules, but I suppose you'd tell me next that computers don't have that kind of function and the universe would collapse in on itself if we tried that?
I suppose the accommodation system prevents you from taking a second room by black magic?

You are getting hysterical insisting a system that already does something can't do it, I've seen some pretty brain dead assertions in this site before, but never a denial that something that already exists can be done (in a slightly different version)

I've given you thourough explanations of why this is a simple thing to sort, yet all you have given me is snotty answers that it can't be done without saying why.



You just have an attitude problem and you need to sort it, or find another job maybe in the HSE where being an excuse generator is a job qualification.

parker kent

supernutrino wrote: »

If a computer can note a deficit, (as it already does) its keeping track of the number of modules you are taking.
If it has the capability of highlighting that your only taking 45 (a deficit), then it has the capability of highlighting that your taking 55 (a surplus).

Keeping track of how many modules you have signed up for is completely different to tracking whether those modules are compliant with your degree choice. Everybody uses credits and as such it is easy to implement.

However, not everybody has the same degree, masters etc. You are simply not comparing like with like. SIS just understands that a student has selected a 5, 10, 15 credit etc module. It doesn't track whether the module is compliant with that individual students degree choice. I am not working in IT so I don't know how simple or difficult it would be to implement that change. But given the enormous permutations and combinations involved, I am saying that I imagine it would be difficult. The system would not just have to track whether you have added another module, but whether that module is compliant with your previous and potential future module choices.

I've pretty clearly never said that it can't be done. What I have continually said is that it is in all likelihood a difficult task. Given you have zero knowledge of implementing such a change in a system used by around 20,000 people, I'm not sure how you are so insistent that it is simple. That is not me "having an attitude problem". So please don't infer that I have said something I have not said.

spudington16

The above post saved me a long reply; supernutrino still hasn't demonstrated any new specific knowledge to support his assertion that this would be a simple fix.

Raphael

I'm locking this thread, because one party involved isn't listening to reason. I'll leave it to the viewer to infer which party that is.