ATH Knockout QF1: Cactus Col vs Teamshadowclan

Bounty Hunter

The votes are still being counted to see who will be in the final quater final Vs Waltersobchek but we now begin the 1st QF match up with they other person who got a bye into this round in Cactus Col as he faces the winner of our opening match Teamshadowclan.

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details, the 1st match's thread or if any are needed or check out last years competition.

Q. This is a question some of you probably thought might get asked at some point, to put it simply... What to do with Zack Ryder?

What would you do with the WWE Internet champion long island iced Z himself Zack Ryder, if you had the chance to book for him? and why in turn would you be Zack's booking browski of the week as apposed to your opponent?

good luck and dont forget, take care, spike your hair WWYKI!

Cactus Colm

WOO WOO WOO!

What to do with Zack Ryder?

As he stands, short term he has a character that is comedy gold, but long term could be career suicide, and will likely never get him above the level of mid card goof. Of course, Santino already has that market cornered in WWE. So what to do with Zack Ryder. My plan would be to start a gradual change from his character now, into a much more serious wrestler. For the sakes of this I’m going to make the assumption that a recent rumour I heard is true, and that Mick Foley is returning to the WWE.

Mick Foley returns to Raw as either Commissioner, or as the GM. It doesn’t have to be Mick Foley, but preferably it would be, mainly because of his goofy nature, and being from Long Island. After Foley is revealed as GM, we get segments where Foley and Ryder interact. Ryder (with the Internet Championship over his shoulder) boasts about matches he had on WWE Superstars, and begs for matches on Raw against any one, and of course advertises his Z! True Long Island Story web show. We get this for maybe 3 or 4 weeks, Foley checks out his youtube videos, and we see some highlights on Raw.

The 5th week Foley gives Z a match, against Jack Swagger (basically somebody with talent, who’s at a relatively high level, but not quite a main eventer, as Foley is GM, this can also mix in with a feud Swagger is having, and be seen as Foley punishing him). We all know what Ryder is capable of, and gave us one of the best matches against Christian that ECW had seen. Here we have a chance to showcase what Ryder can do, both chaps go all out. As Swagger has underestimated Zack, he has a fit and leaves the ring, taking a ten count rather than risk losing properly. This is enough to impress Foley, and he promises we’ll see more of Z in the coming weeks.

Ryder and Foley’s segments continue for the next few weeks, with Ryder getting a match on Raw. These matches will be shorter than the swagger match, but will give Zack a chance to get out and build up a win streak. Then we get a surprise, Foley has decided to recognise the Internet Championship as an official title, and presents Z with a new official belt. Out comes Santino, he wants the belt. This will lead us into a two month feud between Zack and Santino. Those two alone would be enough to give several classic comedy moments, but throw in Mick Foley, and the sky is the limit. In the end, Santino wins the belt, it can be kept, or it can be dropped and let fade away.

This loss marks the beginning of the end of Long Island Iced Z. He’s down, he starts losing more matches, and Foley becomes too busy to deal with him, so he’s lost his bro. When he’s at his lowest ebb, along comes CM Punk, the ultimate manipulator. Taking Ryder under his wing, (bringing him into the Nexus, or a new stable) Punk transforms him from the ultimate broski, into a much more serious wrestler, taking away the rough comedic edges that would otherwise hold Ryder back. Ryder can stay with the stable mid to long term, becoming Punk’s number 2, before eventually leading to a feud with Punk which will establish Ryder in the upper mid card, and give him a platform to push into the main event, as he turns face, he can re-introduce elements of his bro-ness, but do it on a much more serious level.

Now I can’t say why this is better than my opponents (as I haven’t seen his first). But I will tell you why I think my way works, comedy gimmicks have limited shelf lives, the wrestlers involved have tough times evolving beyond the gimmick. Santino, and Eugene are prime examples of talented wrestlers being held back by successful comedy gimmicks. If Zack Ryder isn’t careful he could be just another Scotty Too Hotty. So with my idea we make the most out of his gimmick, get our laughs, and then before it gets too old, we have him drop it, and become a much more serious wrestler under Punk. Of course this is a risk, but it should allow Ryder at least a chance of breaking out of the mid card.

Lord TSC

First off, I'll say that I agree with Cactus Colm's idea to match up Zack Ryder and Mick Foley. The potential for a feud between the two is incredible. However I have got to say I disagree with how you've gone about setting the story up. To me, you've not gone big enough or long-term enough. So what I'm going to do first is outline how I'd set the story up between them, and then I want to address your point about Ryder's comedy character.

Starting off, I've got to paint the big picture. For me, Wrestlemania should have a big theme this year, one that has already been set up to some degree by the one match already announced. So far, we know that John Cena is going to face off against The Rock, so why not shape the entire event around the idea of Attitude Era vs Modern Era. Around young verses new. There's plenty of big matches that could fit into this theme. Punk vs Austin is already being teased somewhat, both on Raw last night and over Twitter for several weeks. For me, the two fighting would be a dream match, and Austin has been making waves about one last match. Undertaker could be portrayed as another "older" guy, and someone like Del Rio, Morrison or another "younger" could face him, bringing up how he's only been fighting HBK and HHH, other older guys at Mania as of late, not giving anyone fresh a chance. Christian could be positioned as a guy who was there during the Attitude Era but only got his chance now, and could face anyone on either side. The entire show would be based around a small group of people wanting to hog the limelight and refusing to step down. Rock, Austin, Taker, they could all attract the old fan back for the big show, and Cena, Punk, Miz et al could be representing the new generation.

Right at the bottom of the card though could be another match. Mick Foley vs Zack Ryder.

This wouldn't be a main event level match. It would not be the serious hardcore brawls we've grown to love from Foley. It could be the Lawler vs Cole match (or what that match should have been). A quick, light hearted match to keep the crowd happy.

Starting the build, I'd continue on as normal, as how they are dealing with Ryder now. I'd start having Ryder pop up on Raw with more cameos, much as how he has been with Cena. But I'd start to let him get a few words in, trying to advertise his show, trying to get seen but always having him cut off by the end of the segment.

Then after a few weeks, he gets a match on Raw. Ryder vs Kofi, non-title match. Ryder picks up the wiin over Kofi with some help from whoever Kofi is actually feuding with. Ryder thinks this is his big break, that he's finally going to get on television more and get some chances. But the week after, he goes back to only scraping appearances, invading other people's segments and promos in a bid to be seen.

As weeks go on, this becomes an obsession. Ryder is desperate for TV time. He starts getting more and more annoyed, and more and more annoying to the other wrestlers, interupting them during interviews, pushing into other people's feuds. On Youtube, he's bragging about his win over the US Champ as if he's amazing, but now he starts to notice something else. Everyone's attention is on The Rock, on Stone Cold, on other old guys who won't go away and are taking up TV time. HIS TV time. And he promises to take action.

On Raw, veterans start getting attacked backstage. Arn Anderson is found unconscious. As the cameras rush to see whats happened, Ryder is there, acting concerned. You know the deal with these types of segments; wrestlers, typically of Ryder's position, are looking concerned as the injured party is taken away. It happens for a few weeks, each week someone else getting hurt. And Ryder is always in the background. Not really being acknowledged but obviously there. But getting on television.

I agree with Colm's decision to have Foley back as a GM figure and obviously with the attacks happening on his show, he starts to investigate. Over the weeks, he gets closer and closer, but he can't figure out who is attacking the legends. All this builds up to the reveal via admission that it was Ryder, sick of being kept out of the limelight by older wrestlers who refuse to let the new generation through. Ryder is right and completely justified in feeling annoyed. He's working his ass off, building a following, and WWE won't even let him wrestle. Meanwhile, Foley, Rock, Austin, they keep coming back and back, getting exposure they don't need, all before buggering off back to whatever else they want to do. And Ryder is sick of it. He says he is the future of WWE. And they are the past.

The attacks now become more visible, as Ryder now lures the legends to the ring and starts attacking them there, racking up wins over people he's obviously superior than; he's young, fit and fast, and the legends are no match for him. Come the Royal Rumble, he promises to win, but is eliminated quickly by Jerry Lawler, making him furious; another old-timer costing him his shot.

He faces Lawler, king of spotlight hogging, at Elimination Chamber, with Cole pointing out Ryder has realised what Cole knew all along about Lawler. Ryder wins and decides to set his sights on one more legend, the one running the show. The one who gets to appear on Raw several times a night while he fights to appear once. The GM, Mick Foley. In a bid to get on Mania, he challenges Foley and the match is accepted. The result is ultimately decided by the fans reactions over the previous few weeks; if Ryder is getting serious heat, then he wins. If the crowd don't care, Foley wins for the feel good factor for the older fans before Rock's ultimately destined loss to Cena.

I also want to address the idea of making Ryder more serious at the behest of his gimmick. I disagree with the thought that his current gimmick is holding him back. Colm suggests he could go the same way as Scotty, but I disagree. Ryder's gimmick is unique in WWE and has gotten him over. The only reason he's viewed as a comedy act is cause all he's doing at the moment is losing. If he was given time and big wins, there's no reason his gimmick could not continue. The core of the character is his arrogance and cockiness, and there's no reason that couldn't take him to a higher level. He needs to refine it, sure, but that can be achieved via picking up some wins, adding some credibility to the arrogant words. Furthermore, adding this hunger to get on television adds a depth to the character and adds a desire. THAT's what can take him to the next level. Getting rid of any current trait of his character would murder him, sending him into a sea of clones from which he currently stands out from, and that would be the biggest mistake of all in Colm's plans...

Cactus Colm

First off, I'll say that I agree with Cactus Colm's idea to match up Zack Ryder and Mick Foley. The potential for a feud between the two is incredible. However I have got to say I disagree with how you've gone about setting the story up. To me, you've not gone big enough or long-term enough. So what I'm going to do first is outline how I'd set the story up between them, and then I want to address your point about Ryder's comedy character.

I would say that I set him up for long term success, while you basically maintained the status quo ...

Starting off, I've got to paint the big picture....

....This wouldn't be a main event level match. It would not be the serious hardcore brawls we've grown to love from Foley. It could be the Lawler vs Cole match (or what that match should have been). A quick, light hearted match to keep the crowd happy.

The Lawlor vs Cole match? Well first off you have the placement of the match wrong, first match on the card should be a decent fast paced encounter to get the fans going. Foley is not capable of a decent fast paced encounter at this late stage of his career. Maybe, he can get back into some kind of shape. Comedy matches should be mid card, to give people a bathroom break. And that is all this match would be, time to go for a piss.

Starting the build, ......... if Ryder is getting serious heat, then he wins. If the crowd don't care, Foley wins for the feel good factor for the older fans before Rock's ultimately destined loss to Cena.

Legend killing? Arn Anderson, maybe bring in Ricky Steamboat, Sgt Slaughter, and whoever’s getting put into the hall of fame. Y2J did the legend killing gimmick at wrestlemania just a couple of years ago, it’s old hat.

Certainly I wouldn’t be a fan of a comedy character (which is how you keep Ryder if I’m reading it right) going beating up veterans and legends just for a quick fun two minute match as pay off. If you’re gonna have these people getting beaten up, veterans losing, it should be for a good strong build to a decent match.

I also want to address the idea of making Ryder more serious at the behest of his gimmick. I disagree with the thought that his current gimmick is holding him back. Colm suggests he could go the same way as Scotty, but I disagree. Ryder's gimmick is unique in WWE and has gotten him over. The only reason he's viewed as a comedy act is cause all he's doing at the moment is losing. If he was given time and big wins, there's no reason his gimmick could not continue. The core of the character is his arrogance and cockiness, and there's no reason that couldn't take him to a higher level. He needs to refine it, sure, but that can be achieved via picking up some wins, adding some credibility to the arrogant words. Furthermore, adding this hunger to get on television adds a depth to the character and adds a desire. THAT's what can take him to the next level. Getting rid of any current trait of his character would murder him, sending him into a sea of clones from which he currently stands out from, and that would be the biggest mistake of all in Colm's plans...

I think this is where we differ most, I feel that for Ryder to not only survive in WWE long term, but to find success, this character of his has to evolve beyond it’s comedic roots. We all love Santino Marelli, but when the day comes that he is released the reaction will be “ oh well, yeah, that makes sense”. He’s been playing essentially the same character for three years now, sometimes face, sometimes heel. In that time he hasn’t moved up the card at all, he’s stayed just where he is. That is the comedy character’s downfall. Edge and Christian had to walk a fine line between comedy (not nearly as goofy as ryder is) and cockiness, as a tag team. But as they progressed up through the card, the comedic aspects of their characters disappeared more and more. Sure Christian is funny, but we won’t be seeing him train in a chicken suit to lose weight any time soon.

With how I push Ryder, we make the most out of the character, getting him stories with Foley and Santino, but then before he becomes stale, we evolve the character through hooking up with Punk. We get a more serious Zack Ryder, take away some of the goofiness, and all of a sudden we have a serious competitor, it certainly doesn't mean he's a clone, or the same as everybody else.

Lord TSC

I would say that I set him up for long term success, while you basically maintained the status quo ...

I guess that is more for the rest of the readers to decide, however I would argue that my plan books Ryder in an angle which leads up to Mania, and has potential for a long term character. Yours focuses on a shorter period of time and strips him of what makes Zack Ryder so loved by the internet fanbase, without giving the rest of the fanbase any real reason to accept him. Putting him with Punk won’t do as much as you hope; for example, does anyone take Otunga or McGullicuty seriously even with their partnership with Punk?

That’s a major thing that has to be considered in this debate though. Will people still care about Ryder if he drops his gimmick and becomes just another wrestler? Sure, WWE may be more inclined to push him higher if he drops the idea of being the internet’s darling, but will the crowd get behind him? Will those who love him still love him if he becomes serious? And do you really think WWE will be willing to give him a sustained push if his own fanbase deserts him then and no new ones get behind him?

Besides, I disagree I maintain the status quo. I’ve outlined a long term angle which turns Ryder from a goofy jobber to someone desperate to get on TV and prove himself, willing to do anything to get that chance at fame.

The Lawlor vs Cole match? Well first off you have the placement of the match wrong, first match on the card should be a decent fast paced encounter to get the fans going. Foley is not capable of a decent fast paced encounter at this late stage of his career. Maybe, he can get back into some kind of shape. Comedy matches should be mid card, to give people a bathroom break. And that is all this match would be, time to go for a piss.

To point out, I don’t think it should open the show. I said it should be the bottom of the card. Edge vs Del Rio this year was a main event, at the top of the card, but it opened the show. Meanwhile the divas matches tend to be bottom of the card but get higher in match placement. So I agree. It should be midway through. My point is it should not be hugely focused on compared to other matches. In advertising the event, it should be lower down the list of priorities, compared to other matches going on.

Legend killing? Arn Anderson, maybe bring in Ricky Steamboat, Sgt Slaughter, and whoever’s getting put into the hall of fame. Y2J did the legend killing gimmick at wrestlemania just a couple of years ago, it’s old hat.

Certainly I wouldn’t be a fan of a comedy character (which is how you keep Ryder if I’m reading it right) going beating up veterans and legends just for a quick fun two minute match as pay off. If you’re gonna have these people getting beaten up, veterans losing, it should be for a good strong build to a decent match.

A couple of points here though. It’s easy to point out the legend killer gimmick has been used before, and it’s been used far more often than just by Jericho. I’ll admit that. However it’s an attempt to give him a proper, structured story with a beginning, middle and an end. Your proposals are far more bland that my proposal to repeat the legend killer idea; you have Santino and Ryder feuding but more for the sake of it than for any real character development reasons. The only character development you’ve outlined is, ironically, to have a partnership with Punk which strips Ryder of his character and replace him with a bland, serious guy who we already have dozens of on the roster.

I’m not saying keep him a straight comedy character. I’m saying keep the character as it is, with the catchphrases, the arrogance and the attitude, but start having him win matches over people who...
1. Fans respect
2. Won’t be hurt by a loss.
Those two things combined would help Ryder get over as a more serious heel, and suddenly instead of being laughed at, people are booing his catchphrases and his attitude. He’s not an out-and-out comedy character because of what he’s doing; he’s one because of how others are currently reacting to him. He’s one because the other wrestlers are laughing at him. If they stop laughing, he isn’t a comedy character, but he can retain his characteristics.

And I’m not proposing the veterans losing should lead to a bad match. I’m saying it should lead to a good story-based match with a feel good ending. In fact, let me add to my original angle. The ending should come when the legends return and reunite, and team up to beat the hell out of Ryder, crowds cheering as the legends celebrate. That would give a payoff to the story, a real feel good moment and give Ryder enough fuel to cut promos about for months to come.

I think this is where we differ most, I feel that for Ryder to not only survive in WWE long term, but to find success, this character of his has to evolve beyond it’s comedic roots. We all love Santino Marelli, but when the day comes that he is released the reaction will be “ oh well, yeah, that makes sense”. He’s been playing essentially the same character for three years now, sometimes face, sometimes heel. In that time he hasn’t moved up the card at all, he’s stayed just where he is. That is the comedy character’s downfall. Edge and Christian had to walk a fine line between comedy (not nearly as goofy as ryder is) and cockiness, as a tag team. But as they progressed up through the card, the comedic aspects of their characters disappeared more and more. Sure Christian is funny, but we won’t be seeing him train in a chicken suit to lose weight any time soon.

With how I push Ryder, we make the most out of the character, getting him stories with Foley and Santino, but then before he becomes stale, we evolve the character through hooking up with Punk. We get a more serious Zack Ryder, take away some of the goofiness, and all of a sudden we have a serious competitor, it certainly doesn't mean he's a clone, or the same as everybody else.

You said it best. He needs to evolve. I just disagree that that much needs to change. Santino hasn’t moved up the card but that’s not because of who he is; it’s because WWE continually have me loosing in short squash matches, with no chance to show off his abilities. That’s not the characters fault, it’s the bookers. Look at the Royal Rumble and the crowd reaction when Santino, without changing in the slightest, had the crowd on their feet, cheering him on and roaring approval. As with Ryder, the character would only need minimal changes. What needs real changes are who his opponents are and how much offence he gets.

Same with Ryder. His character doesn’t need to change drastically. Just who he stands opposite in that ring and how he is booked during that match. Ryder can evolve and keep a lot of the aspects of the Jersey Shore gimmick. In fact, it’s the gimmick which sets him apart and makes him stand out, and I believe it would be career suicide to change any part of it too much.

Cactus Colm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I guess that is more for the rest of the readers to decide, however I would argue that my plan books Ryder in an angle which leads up to Mania, and has potential for a long term character. Yours focuses on a shorter period of time and strips him of what makes Zack Ryder so loved by the internet fanbase, without giving the rest of the fanbase any real reason to accept him. Putting him with Punk won’t do as much as you hope; for example, does anyone take Otunga or McGullicuty seriously even with their partnership with Punk?

You see I would argue that my plan has better long term prospects than yours. My way there is a good 5 to 6 months before Ryder hooks up with punk (that’s about 2 months building relationship with Foley, two months as foley’s buddy proper, feuding with Santino over Internet Championship, at last a month of losing following this, then Punk steps in to rebuild Ryder). When I said Punk takes Ryder under his wing, I meant to imply it was a sort of mentor relationship. Not just the lackey / stablemate relationship that Otunga and McGullicuty have with Punk. More along the lines of Evolution.

That’s a major thing that has to be considered in this debate though. Will people still care about Ryder if he drops his gimmick and becomes just another wrestler? Sure, WWE may be more inclined to push him higher if he drops the idea of being the internet’s darling, but will the crowd get behind him? Will those who love him still love him if he becomes serious? And do you really think WWE will be willing to give him a sustained push if his own fanbase deserts him then and no new ones get behind him?

Besides, I disagree I maintain the status quo. I’ve outlined a long term angle which turns Ryder from a goofy jobber to someone desperate to get on TV and prove himself, willing to do anything to get that chance at fame.

Don’t forget, this is professional wrestling (even if it is WWE) .... so I agree with what you’re saying, WWE may be more inclined to push him higher if he drops the internet darling schtick. Will the crowd get behind him? I don’t see why not, the higher up the card he goes, the longer matches he’ll be able to appear in, the greater chance he can show us what he can do in the ring. Look at Daniel Bryan and all he has achieved with his complete lack of a fun gimmick. Then compare that again with Santino, who is reputed to be a pretty good wrestler, but we don’t see this because he’s booked as a comedy wrestler. Even as a heel. Rico Constantino, another good wrestler, handicapped by a comedy gimmick.

I would even go so far as to suggest that Ryder would already be several rungs higher on the card if it weren’t for his gimmick dragging him down. His match with Christian on ECW could have been a break out match. But why push a goof?

To point out, I don’t think it should open the show. I said it should be the bottom of the card. Edge vs Del Rio this year was a main event, at the top of the card, but it opened the show. Meanwhile the divas matches tend to be bottom of the card but get higher in match placement. So I agree. It should be midway through. My point is it should not be hugely focused on compared to other matches. In advertising the event, it should be lower down the list of priorities, compared to other matches going on.

My mistake there so ....

A couple of points here though. It’s easy to point out the legend killer gimmick has been used before, and it’s been used far more often than just by Jericho. I’ll admit that. However it’s an attempt to give him a proper, structured story with a beginning, middle and an end. Your proposals are far more bland that my proposal to repeat the legend killer idea; you have Santino and Ryder feuding but more for the sake of it than for any real character development reasons. The only character development you’ve outlined is, ironically, to have a partnership with Punk which strips Ryder of his character and replace him with a bland, serious guy who we already have dozens of on the roster.

I think even Santino faced off against a couple of legends at one point! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2385z2yNok

Santino Vs Ryder for the Internet Championship? Bland? I think not! My plan might not have the detail of yours, but it does have a structure, The Wooing of Mick Foley, the Bromance between Zack and Mick, The recognition of the Internet Championship, the Feud between Santino and Zack, Zacks and Mick's descent into broken bro's, and CM Punk's rebuilding Ryder. Ultimately this will lead to a feud between the two.

I don’t know why taking away the comedic elements of his character automatically makes him a bland, serious guy? You can soften the comedic elements, take away the goofiness, and still retain a character who is fun to watch. You can have The Rock, instead of Rocky Miavia.

I’m not saying keep him a straight comedy character. I’m saying keep the character as it is, with the catchphrases, the arrogance and the attitude, but start having him win matches over people who...
1. Fans respect
2. Won’t be hurt by a loss.
Those two things combined would help Ryder get over as a more serious heel, and suddenly instead of being laughed at, people are booing his catchphrases and his attitude. He’s not an out-and-out comedy character because of what he’s doing; he’s one because of how others are currently reacting to him. He’s one because the other wrestlers are laughing at him. If they stop laughing, he isn’t a comedy character, but he can retain his characteristics.

And I’m not proposing the veterans losing should lead to a bad match. I’m saying it should lead to a good story-based match with a feel good ending. In fact, let me add to my original angle. The ending should come when the legends return and reunite, and team up to beat the hell out of Ryder, crowds cheering as the legends celebrate. That would give a payoff to the story, a real feel good moment and give Ryder enough fuel to cut promos about for months to come.

Well, I would agree that keeping him as he is, he would best work as a heel. The kids can boo him, the IWC can love him, but he’ll never get out of the midcard, and nobody will care too much when he’s released. It would be a great moment when the vets and legends unite to kick his ass though. But, I think I’d much rather see him in a 15+ minute match against Christian or CM Punk.

You said it best. He needs to evolve. I just disagree that that much needs to change. Santino hasn’t moved up the card but that’s not because of who he is; it’s because WWE continually have me loosing in short squash matches, with no chance to show off his abilities. That’s not the characters fault, it’s the bookers. Look at the Royal Rumble and the crowd reaction when Santino, without changing in the slightest, had the crowd on their feet, cheering him on and roaring approval. As with Ryder, the character would only need minimal changes. What needs real changes are who his opponents are and how much offence he gets.

Same with Ryder. His character doesn’t need to change drastically. Just who he stands opposite in that ring and how he is booked during that match. Ryder can evolve and keep a lot of the aspects of the Jersey Shore gimmick. In fact, it’s the gimmick which sets him apart and makes him stand out, and I believe it would be career suicide to change any part of it too much.

I loved that moment with Santino, the surprise that he was still in it, the sudden “no way!”, the tease that maybe Santino might actually win it! Enjoyed it a lot. And I also remember the next day, logging onto boards (and other wrestling sites) and reading the disgust from so many people who thought that it weakened the match, that it took away from Del Rio’s victory, and basically just crapping on it because Santino is a goof (a word I’ve used too much, but one I think fits).

You say it’s career suicide to change Ryder’s gimmick, I say it’s suicide to keep it too much the same. (Either way ... good luck!)

Lord TSC

While you have a lot of good points Colm, I’m going to focus on one. I do this to avoid providing the same points again cause I worry it is turning into a circular argument. I’ve made my thoughts on several of your refutations already known so I won’t waste time reiterating the same things. Rather, I shall instead focus on one final point as my closing argument.

You said...

I would even go so far as to suggest that Ryder would already be several rungs higher on the card if it weren’t for his gimmick dragging him down.

I think ultimately this is where we disagree. You argue that Ryder’s gimmick is holding him back, as if the Jersey Shore character is what is preventing him from ascending into a more serious and long term role on Raw and WWE as a whole.

However I would argue that if it were not for that gimmick, we would not be discussing Zack Ryder at all. Why do people care about Ryder? Is it because he has been putting on classic matches on a consistent basis? It strikes me that there’s only one match we can point to, and which you do point to continuously (vs Christian). Can we say it is because he has been in brilliant angles or feuds on television? Again, no. The entire point of this question is that Ryder is not being used, so we cannot judge him based on his abilities to carry a story.

At the moment, all we can judge him on is the character that he has worked on and gotten over himself. But would we even be talking about him if not for the character? Do you think it’s likely we will see a question based on how one would book Curt Hawkins, DH Smith, The Usos or any other of the number of guys who don’t appear on television?

THE ONLY REASON PEOPLE CARE ABOUT ZACK RYDER IS BECAUSE OF HIS CHARACTER/GIMMICK. And yet you suggest his character is the thing holding him back? As if it’s his character that’s actually damaging him when, without it, no one would give a damn about the guy.

No, the character is vital, and should not be altered drastically. If not for the character, Ryder would not be on the ladder at all. Chances are he would have been wished well in his future endeavours and would have faded into obscurity. To get rid of the character after he has moulded it and created something that obviously gets people talking and discussing it would be a horrible idea.

It strikes me, therefore, that while we agree on a lot of things, this debate comes down to a basic line.
*Either you agree with Colm and think that Ryder should get a short term run with the character and then ditch it, wasting all the hard work being put into it and stripping him of the thing that made him special and stand out. The thing people love and the thing which has made this debate possible.
*Or you agree with me and think that the character should be developed, evolve but stay true to what’s got Ryder on the ladder in the first place. That's what I have aimed to do. Not change it to something generic but to evolve it and build on the hard work already put into it. By giving him the fame-hungry, TV-obsessed aspect of the character, he could remain exactly how we love him now but also make him more credible in the eyes of the general fanbase.

To strip Ryder of the Jersey Shore gimmick would be akin to taking Even Bourne’s SSP off him, or having Sheamus shave, tan and speak properly. It would be akin to asking Stone Cold not to drink and swear. It would make Ryder just another guy, and that’s not what WWE or the industry needs.

WWE doesn’t need another generic guy, especially one who, let’s face it, is not that tall or muscular and thus would be unimpressive. WWE needs characters. WWE needs gimmicks. WWE needs Z! True Long Island Story. WWE needs Zack Ryder to be Zack Ryder and not a CM Punk mentored, serious guy. Have them. Have too many of them. WWE needs something fresh and original and Zack Ryder, in his current form provides that.

Thank you for reading.

Bounty Hunter

75% to 25% in the vote, well played Cactus but this year its Teamshadowclan progressing to the next round.