Spread of AIDS in Africa

Penn

I'm starting a new thread on this so as not to be off-topic in the "Increase in enrollments to the Priesthood" thread. I'm quoting and replying to a post made by ISAW.

ISAW wrote: »

The point was about the catholic church position. the RCC would say "don't have sex with anyone other than you partner in a loving relationship ". It is a bit like saying "dont carry guns other than to protect yourself from someone invading your country" Saying "If you are going to have sex with someone you just met use a condom " is to them like saying "if you are going to shoot at someone anyway use a silencer and ask them to wear body armour as the chances of them being killed are significantly reduced by silencers and body armour "

But people obviously know the Catholic Church's position on this matter, but they continue to engage in such activities. ABC: Abstinence, Be faithful, and Condoms. Three factors which can significantly reduce the spread of AIDS. If people aren't being abstinent, and are not being faithful to their partner, then condoms are the next line of defence.

ISAW wrote: »

It is the number one cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa. Older men having sex with young girls. If that behaviour was removed the AIDS epidemic would be halted.

Surely the number one cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa is sex, not just older men having sex with younger girls. And like I said, if they aren't being abstinent or faithful, they should use condoms.

Rape is a violent crime try telling a feminist "the age or sex of the rapist does not matter" and they will tell you it is done mostly by men and it does matter.

Rape is a different matter entirely. Obviously, it's done mostly by men, and is a very serious crime. I can't see what relevance it has here though.

ISAW wrote: »

Just as wearing body armour would reduce the chance of being shot or stabbed. Surely we are better off telling people not to use knives and guns? than saying that if they are going to risk killing someone they should take precautions?

But that approach clearly isn't working. If abstinence and being faithful to your partner was working, AIDS would largely only be able to spread through blood, either genetically or infection. But that isn't the case, and as such, condoms should be made available wherever possible. To halt the spread of AIDS, as many forms of defence should be made available as possible, and it cannot be denied that condoms are a legitimate form of defence.

ISAW wrote: »

Anyway the point is the church position is valid and accepted by Catholics. To say it iosnt is a myth. Such myths wont change the rate of people joining the priesthood if they are aware it is a myth.

I agree, the Church method is valid. But so are condoms, and if someone decides not to follow the catholic method of abstinence and faithfulness, another method, such as condoms, should be made available to them.

Finnbar01

Barrington wrote: »

Surely the number one cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa is sex, not just older men having sex with younger girls. And like I said, if they aren't being abstinent or faithful, they should use condoms.

I saw on Sky news yesterday where an african woman was complaining about rich older men and women following and 'buying' sex with poorer younger people.

I agree, the Church method is valid. But so are condoms, and if someone decides not to follow the catholic method of abstinence and faithfulness, another method, such as condoms, should be made available to them.

Condoms are available to them.

Monty Burnz

Unless the Catholic Church is going to argue that people in Africa have a lot more sex, then it seems that there is some factor that means that infection rates are dozens of times higher in Africa than in Europe. In Europe, where the power of the church is broken, the condom message/safe sex message has been hammered home since the 80s. What happened in Africa?

jhegarty

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Unless the Catholic Church is going to argue that people in Africa have a lot more sex, then it seems that there is some factor that means that infection rates are dozens of times higher in Africa than in Europe. In Europe, where the power of the church is broken, the condom message/safe sex message has been hammered home since the 80s. What happened in Africa?

Which countries in Africa does the Church control ?

South Africa has one of the highest HIV rates, but it less than 10% Catholic.

Monty Burnz

jhegarty wrote: »

Which countries in Africa does the Church control ?

I never said that the CC controlled any countries in Africa - the point is that they were safely ignored here when they railed against condoms. Were they listened to in Africa?

Penn

Finnbar01 wrote: »

I saw on Sky news yesterday where an african woman was complaining about rich older men and women following and 'buying' sex with poorer younger people.

Again, I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, or that it isn't a problem. My point is that AIDS is spread through sex, not just sex between an older man and younger woman.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Condoms are available to them.

But to what extent are they being used due to the strict line on contraception which the Catholic Church has taken? And are condoms available from the Catholic missionaries which many people in Africa turn to for help?

lmaopml

Barrington, when the Pope was speaking he was commenting on the situation that is unique to Africa. Where having sex with a virgin is in some instances is seen as a cure for AIDS, where pharma have sold thousands of faulty condoms to the general public...

You must remember, the Pope is speaking to Catholics. As far as I remember ( this was a topic of discussion a while ago ) Catholics actually have the lowest instances of AIDS in Africa.

Also, if a guy or girl really want to go out and have sex with someone, or multiple people - do you seriously think he or she gives a damn about what the Pope said?

If they are not going to Abstain in the first place then it follows that they don't really care what the Pope said.

The Pope is actually right that giving people condoms doesn't necessarily protect them from getting AIDS or indeed from passing it on to others - in particular when they have multiple partners, it's playing Russian roulette with ones life and others too.

mdebets

While I don't agree with the Vatican in the prohibition of condoms, I think making the this prohibition responsible for the spread of HIV in Africa is laughable.
The church also prohibits sex outside of marriage. Now if people would follow the the Vatican's advice, the spread of HIV in Africa would only be through blood transfusion and shared drug use.
However they clearly don't follow rule 1 (don't have sex outside marriage). Why would you think that they then think 'well, I better follow rule 2 (don't use condoms), as the church forbids this'.
The problem is understanding the problem (how HIV spreads) and the non affordability of condoms for most of the poor in Africa.
Where the church might have some responsibility in this area is in sex education. If they would going about and explaining to people how it works and how HIV spreads, this would be helping towards the spread of HIV.

Monty Burnz

mdebets wrote: »

While I don't agree with the Vatican in the prohibition of condoms, I think making the this prohibition responsible for the spread of HIV in Africa is laughable.

I don't think anyone is arguing that. I think the point is that this is just one element of the problem, but it's one where the CC has behaved in an irresponsible way.

gigino

The worlds population has exploded from approx 1 billion 200 years ago to 8 billion now. This continued population growth has massive implications for the worlds sustainability, natural resources, climate change etc. With regard to contraceptoion / population control, it's another area where the CC has behaved in an irresponsible way. I suppose most Catholics nowadays do not listen to the Church when it talks about condoms / contraceptives...

ISAW

Barrington wrote: »

I'm starting a new thread on this so as not to be off-topic in the "Increase in enrollments to the Priesthood" thread. I'm quoting and replying to a post made by ISAW.

Already discussed in A&A seven months ago:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

Having deconstructed all the arguments brought up by athiests the thread was closed because of my debating style. a similar discussion on the atheists agenda resulted in me being banned from the politics forum ( not for breaking any rules mind you - just for my posting style) . Apparently I am too forensic and analytical and post too much to a thread. The train of the atheist agenda one day is flying merrily along and another is a "trainwreck".
Please don't blame me if I reply to seven or eight other people who are anti christian and say they hate the Church and I am just on my owneio replying to each and every fallacy and contradiction they bring up.

So off you go and have at me on the condoms issue. whether or not you or I agree with it the Church has a valid position.

georgieporgy

Well then, by promoting the spread of Aids in Africa by refusing to say condom use is beneficial, at least the church has to be applauded for doing its bit in reducing population numbers.:rolleyes:

No1J

Addressing sexual issues in Africa or any other 3rd world country is very difficult due to customs and traditions. Asking an African man to ware a condom when he wants to have sex is a bit like Irish men being asked to use the rhythm method, in principle fine, in reality unlikely.
There is a belief in parts of Africa (or are they using this as a sick reason) that Aids can be cured by having sex with a virgin as this will take away the disease. hence sex with very young girls is considered a cure and as you can imagine open to huge pressure on poor people.

Monty Burnz

georgieporgy wrote: »

Well then, by promoting the spread of Aids in Africa by refusing to say condom use is beneficial, at least the church has to be applauded for doing its bit in reducing population numbers.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately it doesn't reduce them in a sustainable way - it just wipes out the adults primarily, leaving teenagers to raise children. You can imagine the consequences for levels of eductation etc., although I'd argue that an educated populace is never too healthy from a religious point of view.

georgieporgy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Unfortunately it doesn't reduce them in a sustainable way - it just wipes out the adults primarily, leaving teenagers to raise children. You can imagine the consequences for levels of eductation etc., although I'd argue that an educated populace is never too healthy from a religious point of view.

But I read in the paper that lots of kids are born with the virus. Plus,a lot of the kids will die from starvation and neglect.

That's all good for the number crunchers. every little bit helps.

What should we do? establish hospitals and schools? (OMG! isn't that what they do)

Or just give em condoms (like UNESCO) and say play with these.

ISAW

Barrington wrote: »

But people obviously know the Catholic Church's position on this matter, but they continue to engage in such activities.

People know the church attitude on murder and rape and still engage in that too. That does not invalidate the church position what is your point?

ABC: Abstinence, Be faithful, and Condoms.

Not the church position!

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/catholic_church_aids_africa.html
If the hypothesis that Catholic doctrine spreads HIV and AIDS, we would expect to see increased infection rates in countries that contain more Roman Catholics. Instead, we find decreased HIV rates in Catholic-dominated countries (although the trend is not statistically significant). The idea that Roman Catholic teaching encourages the spread of HIV is not confirmed by the demographics.

Three factors which can significantly reduce the spread of AIDS. If people aren't being abstinent, and are not being faithful to their partner, then condoms are the next line of defence.

Surely the number one cause of the spread of AIDS in Africa is sex, not just older men having sex with younger girls.

Well there is drug use as well but go and read the thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68589871&postcount=60

Edit you can find the report in google books under
South African National HIV Prevalence, Incidence, Behaviour and Communication Survey, 2008

And like I said, if they aren't being abstinent or faithful, they should use condoms.

If the Church says "rape is wrong" you are claiming that people will rape women anyway and if they use a condom that somehow makes it better? The church position is that you should not do something wrong.

Rape is a different matter entirely. Obviously, it's done mostly by men, and is a very serious crime. I can't see what relevance it has here though.

But that approach clearly isn't working. If abstinence and being faithful to your partner was working, AIDS would largely only be able to spread through blood, either genetically or infection. But that isn't the case, and as such, condoms should be made available wherever possible. To halt the spread of AIDS, as many forms of defence should be made available as possible, and it cannot be denied that condoms are a legitimate form of defence.

The church position was and is that irresponsible behaviour is the root cause i.e. people having sex with multiple partners etc. and condom use wont change this in the slightest.

If anything saying "use a condom" increases such behaviour.

I agree, the Church method is valid. But so are condoms, and if someone decides not to follow the catholic method of abstinence and faithfulness, another method, such as condoms, should be made available to them.

And if they want to get condoms they can. the RCC does not make the laws for African countries. they only advise on moral behaviour. Similarly the RCC can say "guns should not be available" If people want to get guns and fund child armies then the RCC can't stop them doing that all they can do is say it is wrong and discourage it.

ISAW

georgieporgy wrote: »

Well then, by promoting the spread of Aids in Africa by refusing to say condom use is beneficial, at least the church has to be applauded for doing its bit in reducing population numbers.:rolleyes:

The Church position is condom use is not a solution to AIDS. It is a valid position.

georgieporgy

ISAW wrote: »

The Church position is condom use is not a solution to AIDS. It is a valid position.

I'm in total agreement with you ISAW.

(note I added a :rolleyes:)

ISAW

Barrington wrote: »

Again, I'm not saying that that doesn't happen, or that it isn't a problem. My point is that AIDS is spread through sex, not just sex between an older man and younger woman.

True they just happen to be the demographuc having the greatest effect. It is also spread by homosexuals having sex but unlike inter-generation sex of older men and younger girls that is not one of the main vectors. Of course if I highlighted homosexuals people would complain about that because they are not the main vector. You cant have it both ways . You cant complain when I highlight the main vector and then say it isn't the only vector.

But to what extent are they being used due to the strict line on contraception which the Catholic Church has taken? And are condoms available from the Catholic missionaries which many people in Africa turn to for help?

This isn't an argument about contraception, It is about condoms and AIDS. Frankly it is nonsense to say that the Catholic Church are all for an older man with AIDS having sex with a young girl and not using a comndom because it is a contraceptive. They are against that man having sex with her full stop! Now if it was an monogamous relationship and the man had HIV they might not object ot the condom being used. Bhut the point is how did the older man get HIV in the first place. The problem the church has highlighted is irresponsible behaviour in having sex with multiple partners particularly older men with young girls. Condoms dont change that!