Alcohol Laws

mdodd92

Hi there,
just wanted to get peoples' opinion and advice on a minor incident.
Earlier tonight at about 11pm I was walking home after stopping in to work (pub) to collect a crate of beer. About 70 yards down the road there was an unmarked garda car parked up with 2 gardai inside. They got out as i walked past and without saying a word they took the crate off me. I argued with them stating that i wasn't drinking in public and that i was on my way home and I was of legal age (19) but they were having none of it. And then when i asked if i would be able to claim the drink back if i went down to the station and produced i.d. (which i showed them at the time but they ignored) they just told me that it would be destroyed. I argued further saying that they can only take the alcohol if I'm drinking in public, intend to drink in public or intend to sell in public (I know my rights) but one of them shook their head and told me that they can take alcohol off anybody they wanted and could destroy it. I just wanted to know if this was true because it seems like a bit of a dodgy law.

parsi

If what you're saying is true then take a trip down to your local barracks and ask to speak to the local Superintendent and state your case in a calm and clear manner.

If this doesn't happen or produce results then take yourself off to www.gardaombudsman.ie/ and lodge a complaint there.

If of course there's more to this story then think carefully before other people's time is wasted.

Esel

mdodd92 wrote: »

..without saying a word they took the crate off me..

Seriously? Not a word?

I would have thought they could not seize the alcohol unless you were actually drinking some. I can't see the average Joe walking home from the off-licence having their purchase seized....

pulpfictionost

thats so bogus, an old friend of mine came back from germany on tuesday, wednesday night we went on the tear, and on the way to the pub we brought 2 cans each with us, we were pretty wrecked already but halfway through the first can a garda walks up behind us and stops us, i thought "aww crap were gonna have to pour out the drink", but he just said, make sure you finish them before the next bin and throw them in it, then he watched us go to the next bin, down out beers and walk off.

As for your question, take parsi's advice

Shield

I'm always cautious with these type of "I was walking up the street..." threads because in most cases (not saying it applies to you OP), a vital piece of information has been omitted. We don't give legal advice on the forum, or indeed, anywhere on this site, so the best thing to do would be to adopt parsi's approach if you want the matter taken seriously and dealt with fairly.

mdodd92

Thanks for your help guys. I'm going to go down to the station tomorrow and complain and I think my Dad knows a few of the lads down there so I think he might tag along. If that doesn't work out I'll take parsi's advice. Not sure if it will help though because a few of my friends have had trouble with them aswell. A while back two of my friends were walking home from a night out and they met two gardai from the same station. One of my mates was pretty drunk and the other was sober and the gards told him they would take our drunk friend home. The next day when he came out he was bruised down the side of his ribs and had had his head split open and he said the two gards hit him with their torches. When he went down to the station with his Dad they just said he fell and refused to elaborate any further. Not sure if I'm allowed to name the station but a lot of people have had trouble with them bullying people and everyone is sick of it!

Shield

This is the kind of thing has to be reported or it will continue. No upstanding member of AGS would stand by that kind of thuggery.

The Garda Ombudsman is there for a reason and there are bad apples in every barrel. All it takes is one bully to give an entire district a bad name.

mcgarrett

Shield wrote: »

This is the kind of thing has to be reported or it will continue. No upstanding member of AGS would stand by that kind of thuggery.

The Garda Ombudsman is there for a reason and there are bad apples in every barrel. All it takes is one bully to give an entire district a bad name.

Saying your cautious about the "walking down the street" stories and then referring to the incident as thuggery is quite unfair when we are getting a one sided story.

In a lot of towns there are local bye laws that prohibit the carrying of alcohol unless the bottles or cans are in closed boxes or carry bags, a beer crate may not be suitable.

MagicSean

Haven't both you and your work committed an offence by engaging in an off licence sale after 10p.m. ?

mdodd92

No I had payed for the crate when i was in work the day before but i didn't want to walk home with it then so I collected it last night. It was all legal.

mdodd92

Oh and it was a closed box of 20 bottles so there shouldn't have been a problem.

MagicSean

mdodd92 wrote: »

No I had payed for the crate when i was in work the day before but i didn't want to walk home with it then so I collected it last night. It was all legal.

I don't think it works that way. If that was the case off-licences and pub could give out booze on credit throughout the night and arrange for people to pay during the legal hours.

mdodd92 wrote: »

Oh and it was a closed box of 20 bottles so there shouldn't have been a problem.

It doesn't matter if they are opened or closed. Section 4 of the Public order Act gives the power to seize alcohol wether it's open or closed.

McCrack

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I don't think it works that way. If that was the case off-licences and pub could give out booze on credit throughout the night and arrange for people to pay during the legal hours.



It doesn't matter if they are opened or closed. Section 4 of the Public order Act gives the power to seize alcohol wether it's open or closed.

Only if a person is engaging in threatening, insulting or abusive behaviour or is being disorderly. The OP on face value wasn't engaging in any of this behavour so on the face of it the Gardai acted outside their power.

OP if what you are saying is truthful I would suggest you contact the Garda Ombudsman to make a complaint. I would not suggest contacting a senior Garda officer. The Ombudsman is impartial and independent.

MagicSean

McCrack wrote: »

Only if a person is engaging in threatening, insulting or abusive behaviour or is being disorderly. The OP on face value wasn't engaging in any of this behavour so on the face of it the Gardai acted outside their power.

I've yet to meet someone that admits to this straight away. But if the op feels agrieved he should certainly go to the Ombudsman.

Locust

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

It doesn't matter if they are opened or closed. Section 4 of the Public order Act gives the power to seize alcohol wether it's open or closed.

Where does it say that under Section 4 of the Public Order Act?
Intoxicatin Liquor Act 2008
Section 14.— “Power to seize intoxicating liquor in possession of person under age of 18 years, etc.

37A.— (1) This section applies where a member of the Garda Síochána believes with reasonable cause that—

(a) a person under the age of 18 years is in a relevant place alone or accompanied by another person,

(b) a bottle or container which contains intoxicating liquor is in the possession of the relevant person or the accompanying person, and

(c) such intoxicating liquor (whether in whole or in part) has been, is being, or is intended to be, consumed by the relevant person in such relevant place or another relevant place.

(2) Where this section applies, the member may—

(a) seek an explanation from the relevant person or, as appropriate, the accompanying person, as to all or any of the matters to which the relevant belief relates, and

(b) do one or more of the following, if such person fails or refuses to give such an explanation or if such an explanation is given, and in either case the member remains of the relevant belief:

(i) request such person in possession of the bottle or container to immediately give it to the member (or to another member of the Garda Síochána accompanying the member) and at the same time as the request is made give to such person a warning in ordinary language that a failure or refusal to comply with the request may lead to the seizure of the bottle or container or to his or her arrest or to both (or words to the like effect);

(ii) if such person fails or refuses to comply with the request, seize, detain and remove, without warrant, the bottle or container with the use, if necessary, of such force as is reasonable in the circumstances;

(iii) request the relevant person to provide the member with his or her name, address and age.

MagicSean

Locust wrote: »

Where does it say that under Section 4 of the Public Order Act?
Intoxicatin Liquor Act 2008
Section 14.— “Power to seize intoxicating liquor in possession of person under age of 18 years, etc.

37A.— (1) This section applies where a member of the Garda Síochána believes with reasonable cause that—

(a) a person under the age of 18 years is in a relevant place alone or accompanied by another person,

(b) a bottle or container which contains intoxicating liquor is in the possession of the relevant person or the accompanying person, and

(c) such intoxicating liquor (whether in whole or in part) has been, is being, or is intended to be, consumed by the relevant person in such relevant place or another relevant place.

(2) Where this section applies, the member may—

(a) seek an explanation from the relevant person or, as appropriate, the accompanying person, as to all or any of the matters to which the relevant belief relates, and

(b) do one or more of the following, if such person fails or refuses to give such an explanation or if such an explanation is given, and in either case the member remains of the relevant belief:

(i) request such person in possession of the bottle or container to immediately give it to the member (or to another member of the Garda Síochána accompanying the member) and at the same time as the request is made give to such person a warning in ordinary language that a failure or refusal to comply with the request may lead to the seizure of the bottle or container or to his or her arrest or to both (or words to the like effect);

(ii) if such person fails or refuses to comply with the request, seize, detain and remove, without warrant, the bottle or container with the use, if necessary, of such force as is reasonable in the circumstances;

(iii) request the relevant person to provide the member with his or her name, address and age.

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána suspects, with reasonable cause, that an offence under this section or under section 5 or 6 is being committed, the member concerned may seize, obtain or remove, without warrant, any bottle or container, together with its contents, which—


(a) is in the possession, in a place other than a place used as a dwelling, of a person by whom such member suspects the offence to have been committed, and


(b) such member suspects, with reasonable cause, contains an intoxicating substance:


Provided that, in the application of this subsection to section 5 or 6 , any such bottle or container, together with its contents, may only be so seized, obtained or removed where the member of the Garda Síochána suspects, with reasonable cause, that the bottle or container or its contents, is relevant to the offence under section 5 or 6 which the member suspects is being committed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0004.html#sec4

Zambia

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána suspects, with reasonable cause, that an offence under this section or under section 5 or 6 is being committed, the member concerned may seize, obtain or remove, without warrant, any bottle or container, together with its contents, which—
(a) is in the possession, in a place other than a place used as a dwelling, of a person by whom such member suspects the offence to have been committed, and
(b) such member suspects, with reasonable cause, contains an intoxicating substance:
Provided that, in the application of this subsection to section 5 or 6 , any such bottle or container, together with its contents, may only be so seized, obtained or removed where the member of the Garda Síochána suspects, with reasonable cause, that the bottle or container or its contents, is relevant to the offence under section 5 or 6 which the member suspects is being committed.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0004.html#sec4

That is all very well but in the case described the reasonable cause is terrible.

If the alcohol was seized on the reasonable grounds that the person was under 18 yet no conversation or request for proof of age took place.
EDIT Or proof of age was shown and ignored

I dont see how you can justify reasonable grounds to seize. Plus if the offence took place was there a plenty notice or details taken for action at a later time. You cant just seize items of the public. Without any due process at all.

EDIT Op are you sure these were Gardai were you robbed by two plain clothes bloke in a Mondeo?

Zambia

Zambia wrote: »

That is all very well but in the case described the reasonable cause is terrible.

If the alcohol was seized on the reasonable grounds that the person was under 18 yet no conversation or request for proof of age took place.
EDIT Or proof of age was shown and ignored

I dont see how you can justify reasonable grounds to seize. Plus if the offence took place was there a plenty notice or details taken for action at a later time. You cant just seize items of the public. Without any due process at all.

EDIT Op are you sure these were Gardai were you robbed by two plain clothes bloke in a Mondeo?

We know nothing about this story other than the OP's version. Gardaí do not just take booze off of people without a good reason. Maybe they are know to the Gardaí in question and has been in trouble in the past drinking outside / causing public order problems.

As said earlier, there is probably more to this story than already posted. In my opinion it should probably be closed as the OP's question has been answered.

Shield

foreign wrote: »

...the OP's question has been answered.

Thread closed for this reason.