Discussion on bullying

easychair

New thread on bullying started following on from this post - JMG


While in no way is bullying to be condoned, part of the reason to be in school is to learn. And that includes learning about how to handle and deal with bullies. Teachers and pupils in school are bullied for many reasons, not just for being gay. What is important is to learn how to deal with the bully, and not to try to look into the reasons why the bully is bullying.

In all walks of life after school, there will be bullies, which is why it is important for schools to help their pupils learn how to deal with and handle a bully.

If some teachers are afraid to tackle bullying, then this shows the teacher involved has not learned how to handle and cope with a bully, and needs guidance and teaching on how to do so. It might be more productive for their unions to give them that help and support, rather than marching to show they are giving a "strong message", which is code to mean they are not actually doing anything.

Bullying is horrible, but to try to divide bullying into two groups,homophobic and non homophobic bullying, misses the point and further divides gay and non gay people. Bullying itself is the problem, and the supposed cause of the bullying, (ie homophobic bullying or non homophobic bullying) is irrelevant. The cause of bullying is never relevant, and it is the bullying itself which is the issue to be tackled.

diddlybit

easychair wrote: »

Bullying is horrible, but to try to divide bullying into two groups,homophobic and non homophobic bullying, misses the point and further divides gay and non gay people. Bullying itself is the problem, and the supposed cause of the bullying, (ie homophobic bullying or non homophobic bullying) is irrelevant. The cause of bullying is never relevant, and it is the bullying itself which is the issue to be tackled.

The cases of the bullying is relevant however in the case of LGBT students as it is created by social and cultural prejudices and bigotry. Unless people's attitudes are changed, this type of bullying will continue. I see your point though, a lot of bullying is quite mindless and about power, but it can't all be group into one hemogounos category.

For example:

Case 1: Kid is bullyed because some leader of a clique has decided that he/she doesn't like her. Rest of them follow suit. Bullying for the sake of it.

Case 2: Kid is bullied because he/she displayed gender varient behavior or may be suspected of having a non-normative sexuality. Leader of clique notices this and justifies bullying with prejudice passed on from parent or guardian figure recounting sterotypes aboout f***ots or dykes that he or she has listened to. Kid grows up, may continue to hold these inherited beliefs and pass them onto his or her kids. Cycle continues.

Rates of suicide and depression are much higher in LGBT youth which to me, justifies the fact that it is a specific problem that she be tackled on it's own.

There is also the ubiquitous *That's so gay" i.e. crap that is repeated in the venacular of today's teenagers. I know that if that had have been around in school when I was a kid, it probabaly would have really upset me.

easychair

I agree bullying is horrible. I don't agree that the reasons for bullying are relevant, as it is the bullying itself which is the problem. Bullys always find reasons to bully weaker individuals, but the reasons are irrelevant, as it is their bullying behaviour which is the problem.

Further, the more we create differences between gay and straight people, the more the differences will persist. Lets not divide everything into a gay and non gay issue. The issue of bullying is a universal issue, and should be used to forge further links with everyone else in trying to eradicate and educate, rather than using it as another "gay or non gay" issue.

Bullying is the issue, and not the supposed cause of the bullying.

diddlybit

easychair wrote: »

Bullying is the issue, and not the supposed cause of the bullying.

I still don't understand how the cycle of bullying can stop if the causes are treated. It seems a bit like putting a band aid on a huge wound. I support the introduction of better bullying policies in schools, but punishing one set of bullies that will just be replaced with another set, is solving any problems.

It's not just LGBT kids, it's also issues of racism and class prejudice, which are prejudices that children do not develop of their own accord. These are beliefs that are inherited from social and cultural sources. Unless larger problems are tackled, these forms of bigotry will continue.

People will always bully weaker people, but how does one tackle this? Make power less seductive? Give self-esteem lessons to everyone?

apache

easychair wrote: »

I agree bullying is horrible. I don't agree that the reasons for bullying are relevant, as it is the bullying itself which is the problem. Bullys always find reasons to bully weaker individuals, but the reasons are irrelevant, as it is their bullying behaviour which is the problem.

Further, the more we create differences between gay and straight people, the more the differences will persist. Lets not divide everything into a gay and non gay issue. The issue of bullying is a universal issue, and should be used to forge further links with everyone else in trying to eradicate and educate, rather than using it as another "gay or non gay" issue.

Bullying is the issue, and not the supposed cause of the bullying.

i agree with this. you should not categorise it.
it will turn into a hate crime next

i was bullied in primary school not for being gay but for being intelligent and i guess a nerd. it caused me huge stress.
what i am trying to say is bullying is bullying and it hurts and should not be sectioned off. one persons situation is no greater than anothers.

as a result i went a bit mad in secondary and became the popular one.

oh and as for pride i subconsciously put in for the week off work like i always do but i really can't be bothered. the people marching there certainly don't represent me!
maybe i'm getting older. most people don't care if you are gay or not and those that do will have problems with most things in life so why care?

i find the parade embarrassing now. its funny when i was a teenager and in my early twenties i thought it was the business.
youth is folly.

any lovely lesbians would like to go away for the duration of it with me holed up in a log cabin in the wilderness?
i'm a good catch now

Ambersky

On the handling of homophobic bullying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrJxqvalFxM

Come on Get Up, Stand Up, Hold hands with whoever you like
Its Pride and Community that stops bullies
March in Pride and have some fun at the same time.

easychair

I don't think slogans will stop bullying. Bullying has been with us for centuries, and well never stop it, and can only respond to it. Thats why it's more important to teach individuals how to react and respond to a bully, rather than sloganising or marching to show support, but which is of no practical help when it comes to being bullied.

Ambersky

Bullies are cowards they pick on what they see as easy targets or vulnerable individuals.
They also rely on the dynamics of the crowd where you are less likely to get someone to step out of a crowd to help in any situation than you are to get help from an individual passing stranger.
By joining together and standing up against bullying we break this cycle.
Standing together really works, it is doing something.
All the changes that have been made in recent years in equality legislation, legalisation and supports have come from people coming together and believing they can change things for the better, and they have.
I have seen and experienced bullies backing off when the vulnerable target was supported.
More on the international Stand Up Campaign
http://www.standupday.com/08/participants/index.php?target=pages&page_id=intro

The Basics:

What? International STAND UP to Bullying Day is a special bi-annual event in which people across the world who have signed a special “pledge shirt” join together in wearing them to:

1) Send a loud, non-confrontational message of resistance to bullies
2) Identify themselves to victims as a source of support willing to help
3) Draw attention to the effects of bullying, and stimulate passive bystanders into action

What? The stand is taken globally; with pledge shirts and services being made available to schools and workplaces in 25 different countries. All registration takes place online.
How? Each participant must pledge themselves and their community members by signing their name to the back of a special pledge shirt. Participants are then notified before each STAND to make sure they wear it throughout the day during each event. (Stay tuned)

easychair

Of course standing up as a group will deter the bully. Unfortunately, bullies would rarely attack where this is likely and usually pick the time, place and individual where standing up together is unlikely or impossible.

It might be a mistake to think that bullies are not clever or devious, as often they are both. Bullies are also tenacious and often play a long and subtle game, and it's not usually the case where a bully will target someone, they will then stand up with a group and face off the bully, and the bully then is "defeated".

The more likely response from the bully is to bide his time and wait until he can again target the victim when he is alone, or in a different situation, and if the only response from the victim is to stand up as a group, then this will be useless when he is not in a group situation, or the group he is with is not aware of the stand up as a group thing.

Bullies can be very subtle, and while the whole stand up as a group thing sounds great, it's now really effective in combatting a bully who can be devious, clever and play a long and subtle game.

One of the most valuable lessons I learned in earlyish life was how to cope with and handle a bully, and as a result I have not fallen victim to a bully for many years. In work, for example, it simply wouldn't have been possible to stand up as a croud, or in individual situations, and I've also stood up for colleagues who were unable to handle the office bully.

While it's a lovely idea, to stand up as a crowd isn't practical in many situations which are created by bullies.

Ambersky

Why put down a technique because it doesnt work in every situation.
It doesnt have to work in every situation.

Easychair says
Of course standing up as a group will deter the bully. Unfortunately, bullies would rarely attack where this is likely and usually pick the time, place and individual where standing up together is unlikely or impossible..

No I have seen bullying in public, taunting, taking things and throwing them around, pushing, spitting on backs, laughing at, sneering, writing things on articles, etc.
A peer group standing up for an individual getting bullied is effective in many situations particularly at the beginning of a bullying situation.
Its also useful for the individual being bullied to get a good ego boost, everyone feels better when they know they arent alone.
Bullying distroys a persons self esteem and can make them feel even more vulnerable and unable to handle the situation effectively.
Having a stronger self steem and knowing you are not alone and have people you can go to, helps in any kind of bullying situation even the ones you have to deal with when the bully thinks you are alone.
The point is does the person being bullied feel alone.

Todays liveline programme was talking about a situation where a parent went to a school with her daughter who had bruises on her legs from being kicked by a particular boy.
The principal and teacher dealt with it immediately and brought him before the whole class.
Bullying thrives on secrecy it cant exist out in the open.
Sometimes people just need a little help to even feel confident enough to bring it out into the open and thats where friends can come in useful.
I say Stand Up against bullying and Stand Together to have fun.
Maybe even do a bit of marching.;) You never know you might enjoy it.

easychair

Ambersky wrote: »

Why put down a technique because it doesnt work in every situation.
It doesnt have to work in every situation.

.

That's the point, it doesn't work in every, or even many, situations. Just because I point that out doesn't mean I am putting down a technique. Or putting it up. Or shaking it about. I am merely pointing out that, as a technique to stop bullying, it is pretty limited.

I'd prefer to learn how to deal and cope with a bully myself, rather than be dependent on having a crowd at the ready every time I face a bully.

Ambersky

Easychair saying that a technique or idea is

is pretty limited

doesn't work in every, or even many, situations

isn't practical

is of no practical help

is just a tiny bit of a rejection or a put down of an idea, wouldnt you?

You have put forward the idea of the individual learning to handle bullying themselves
Saying

it's more important to teach individuals how to react and respond to a bully

Why cant you accept both ways of doing things, individually and collectively.
Some people like to have support and some people like to do things alone or individually, is that ok.
Both ways can work.

easychair

Ambersky wrote: »

Why cant you accept both ways of doing things, individually and collectively.
Some people like to have support and some people like to do things alone or individually, is that ok.
Both ways can work.

Identifying practical problems is not to reject an idea!

Chuchoter

In my own opinion, I think we need schools to give more attention to gay teens in general, not just bullying and especially not randomly marching and doing nothing. I think SPHE components and GSA type things would be more helpful because if I'm honest, one of the reasons I don't like the stand up campaign is that its kind of demanding pride out of a group of people who are routinely ****ed over. Its all great if you're really OK in yourself with being gay, but if you're not basically you're left behind. On top of that, it also expects that there is some sort of general acceptance of gay people among that age group and I honestly don't think that exists in most places. In most places, you're kind of on your own.

Ambersky

There is also great work being done by GLEN, BeLonG To and the teachers unions making progress in seeing to it that LGBT youth do not feel so alone and in changing the atmosphere in schools to make them more accepting of Diversity.

The Stand Up campaign is useful not only targeting LGBT youth but also in training straight youth to be more aware and willing to act up or say something in defence of someone whether or not they are actually gay.
Being bullied because of the perception you are gay is enough, you dont have to be brave and gay and all Out there.

easychair says
Identifying practical problems is not to reject an idea!

In what way do you not reject the idea, are there ways you accept it or can say something positive about it.

The SPHE components needed to have teachers willing and able to deal with the issues and frankly they needed work too.
The LGBT teachers needed support and to feel safe within their schools in order to be able to provide valuable input to help out in the inplementation of such courses and to deal with homophobic bullying.
Homophobic bullying was let slide and simply not dealt with when it was not individually named and included along with the other kinds of bullying mentioned and training given for.
As I say great work is being done. Its not one method versus another they are all making progress working together to make change happen and thats a good thing.

crayolastereo said
In my own opinion, I think we need schools to give more attention to gay teens in general

There is a lot of work being done on just that, gay teens in general.
The Stand Up campaign came up as a result of the feedback on the need to do more, to do actions in support of LGBT youth.
It is only one component and any other suggestions of things that can be done are welcome.
Especially welcome are people who are willing to get in there and take part in actually doing something.
I think the people who have been doing all this work should be congratulated and deserve our support and encouragement.

Here is a list of some of the resources being made to teachers, schools and students.

LGBT students in post primary schools:Guidance for Principals and School Leaders. Department of Education and Science and GLEN
http://www.glen.ie/attachments/schools_guidance.PDF

10 Things you should know about LGBT students. 5 Things your school can do.
DES and GLEN
http://www.glen.ie/attachments/d37a0412-955b-403f-9d82-95dd7ee5253d.PDF

Including LGBT students in school policies : Guidelines for Principals
http://www.glen.ie/attachments/Including_LGB_Students_in_School_Policies.PDF

Supporting LGBT Lives: A Documumentation Study
http://www.glen.ie/attachments/562cac69-09f9-4042-aa10-74c3d5f6ce03.PDF

Valuing Visibility : An exploration of how sexual orientation issues arise and are addressed in Post Primary schools.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=72692041

Chuchoter

Any straight people I know who saw that video nearly died laughing which I don't think was the desired effect and all of the things done by Belongto and GLEN and such, while really great, don't 'have' to be followed. They are all optional and many don't seem to reach all that many schools. The department needs to not just issue guidelines or launch video campaigns and so on and so forth but say concretely, you need to recognize that gay teenagers exist. We have bullying guidelines, we have all this negative stuff but nothing positive. There was a week or two last year where someone else in the school put up a couple of small posters that while not focusing on bullying, were about 1 in 10 and things like that and if I'm honest, those were way more helpful to me than any antibullying campaign. They only give the effect that the only thing gay teenagers ever do is get bullied and kill themselves.

Ambersky

crayolastereo says
we have all this negative stuff but nothing positive.

You mean guidelines and anti bullying programmes, not all the negative stuff thats in this thread. Its the department and GLEN and BeLonG To and the teachers unions that are providing the negativity. Is that what you mean.

Thats what Im hearing in this thread - all this negative stuff -.
Im looking for a little chink of positivity, something good to be said about all the work that is being done to make schools better places for LGBT students.
Of course things are still bad for some people and there is more to be done, suggestions and help are always welcome.
Im here sticking up for a little positivity.

At the beginning of the thread

easychair said
If some teachers are afraid to tackle bullying, then this shows the teacher involved has not learned how to handle and cope with a bully, and needs guidance and teaching on how to do so. It might be more productive for their unions to give them that help and support, rather than marching to show they are giving a "strong message", which is code to mean they are not actually doing anything.

I'm demonstrating that the unions are providing such guidance as well as a strong message by marching.

easychair also says
The cause of bullying is never relevant, and it is the bullying itself which is the issue to be tackled.

But crayolastereo says
The department needs to not just issue guidelines or launch video campaigns and so on and so forth but say concretely, you need to recognize that gay teenagers exist.

recognise not recognise? Talk about Dont talk about.

It seems at first there were complaints that to deal with LGBT issues was creating division and we shouldnt mention it at all

easychair says
to try to divide bullying into two groups,homophobic and non homophobic bullying, misses the point and further divides gay and non gay people.

and then no one was doing enough for LGBT visibility.

Crayolastereo says
I think we need schools to give more attention to gay teens in general, not just bullying and especially not randomly marching and doing nothing.

all this everyone else is doing nothing!

I think it is a fair point crayolastereo brings up that we need to also hear about the positive side to LGBT youth in schools and the diversity they bring and if you read some of the links I posted you will see its not all about bullying.
For example
5 things school leaders can do
10 things you should know

I would hope that crayolastereo or anyone could concede to me that we need also to hear about the positive side to the work being done for LGBT youth, including the anti bullying campaign in schools.

Most of this stuff has to be voluntary but we do also have equality laws that guarantee your safety and right to an education.
Any school that does not provide this can be sued.
The schools are only beginning to realise this and they are afraid of it thats partly why there is such a flurry of information and directives on LGBT issues in schools.
So do remember this if you have any complaints particularly about bullying, you can threaten to sue.

Crayolastereo finally says someone did something positive

someone else in the school put up a couple of small posters that while not focusing on bullying, were about 1 in 10 and things like that and if I'm honest, those were way more helpful to me than any antibullying campaign.

Presumably by someone else crayolastereo means someone I wouldnt be talking about like the teachers unions, the department of education, BeLonG To or GLEN. Or maybe you mean someone else as in you didnt do anything yourself.
I wonder who that someone else was?
Anyway it did a lot of good, nameless and all as they may be, good was done.
Yay!!!! someone said someone did something positive.

A lot of work has gone into supporting LGBT youth in recent years and believe it or not just being able to mention the existence of LGBT youth let alone put up posters without them being torn down is real progress.
And that progress didnt just magically happen.
It wasnt caused by people keeping their heads down and being nice or handling things on their own and not mentioning LGBT issues.
People have put their own jobs on the line and stuck their heads out so that schools would be better places for everyone.
Its not perfect.
It may not have hit your school yet.
But the fact that all this work is being done is something positive.

Chuchoter

I'm aware that my generation are doing a hell of a lot better than people who've been through the education system before me but that still doesn't make it perfect and it doesn't mean we don't get to have an opinion on things that happen. We shouldn't just be grateful for anything we get given. Obviously optional anti-bullying campaigns are vital and a big step in the right direction but they mean little in a context where its still acceptable for a school to behave like it has no LGBT students until they're being attacked on the premises, if even that. That's what I mean by all negative things. Portraying gay teenagers as real people with real lives would be in my own opinion more effective.
The posters were put up by another student I presume or maybe a teacher, either way they were all taken down after about a week. I also appreciate that if it was a teacher, they were taking quite a risk by standing up in that respect, even if it was done so anonymously.

Ambersky

Who composed, published and distiributed the poster?
Was it a hand written piece by some brave individual or
Was it perhaps published by one of the groups who, up to now according to this thread, have not been doing anything positive.

Ok as you say its not perfect
your generation is doing a lot better
you dont have to be grateful for just anything
you do get to have an opinion

And here is the sentence with somethng positive without being followed by the word but minimising the good done in the
positive part.

crayolastereo says
I also appreciate that if it was a teacher, they were taking quite a risk by standing up in that respect, even if it was done so anonymously.

Yay something positive has been done and something positive has been said about it.

I have a suggestion how about people here putting together the kind of poster they would like to see in schools and maybe we can get put it forward for publishing.

Chuchoter

I never said Belongto and Glen have never done anything positive. The posters in question were from older campaigns by belongto, someone obviously had it lying around the house and put it up. The organizations are doing positive work, that doesn't mean there aren't things that could be changed and I feel progress is painstakingly slow and there are several groups really not pulling their own weight, like the department and the unions. Belongto and Glen could probably get a lot more done with more help.

I'd like to see poster campaigns closer to the ones a few years ago that were 'She's gay and we're ok with that' or whatever it was, but more colorful and more focusing on everyday things:leaving cert, girlfriend/boyfriend stuff, friends, parties. I think sending out a message that you aren't alone and there's room for you in society is far more inspiring than anything else.

Ambersky

crayolastereo says
We have bullying guidelines, we have all this negative stuff but nothing positive

crayolastereo also says
I never said Belongto and Glen have never done anything positive.

Things that you see in schools from BeLonG To and GLEN are there because of the co operation between them and the Unions and the Department.
They work hand in hand, not in opposition.
Im sure they would be interested in feedback from young people on how their efforts are appreciated or could be improved upon.
They would be especially appreciative of any posters or work, individuals or groups like this forum could get together on and actually produce.
If you would like to pass them on to me I could see to it that they get it.

Fbjm

I know I might get some hate for this, but why don't kids just not tell everyone that they're gay?

Aard

Usually because they're not entirely sure themselves at the start. By the time they notice, they've been bombarded with messages that it's not normal at best and that it's downright evil at worst.

Chuchoter

Ambersky wrote: »

Things that you see in schools from BeLonG To and GLEN are there because of the co operation between them and the Unions and the Department.
They work hand in hand, not in opposition.
Im sure they would be interested in feedback from young people on how their efforts are appreciated or could be improved upon.
They would be especially appreciative of any posters or work, individuals or groups like this forum could get together on and actually produce.
If you would like to pass them on to me I could see to it that they get it.

I know the work is worthwhile, I meant positive in a literal, rainbows and unicorns sense.
If it was between unions and the department it would be in every single school, not just the odd progressive comprehensive.

Fbjm wrote: »

I know I might get some hate for this, but why don't kids just not tell everyone that they're gay?

Really? You're really asking that? Maybe its the drip feeding of **** you get about it from birth, unsupportive home environments, homophobic environments at school, bullying, losing friends etc etc

Ambersky

Ok rainbows and unicorns are literal

I meant positive in a literal, rainbows and unicorns sense.

but your doubting me

If it was between unions and the department it would be in every single school, not just the odd progressive comprehensive

Are you not getting the feeling that maybe I know something about this and maybe I am somewhat involved in this co operation.
"Like" I do know cos I was there, like, at the meetings, like, in the union.

there are several groups really not pulling their own weight, like the department and the unions.

Its not the unions and the departments fault.

We dont have to be working against one another.

Fbjm

crayolastereo wrote: »

I know the work is worthwhile, I meant positive in a literal, rainbows and unicorns sense.
If it was between unions and the department it would be in every single school, not just the odd progressive comprehensive.


Really? You're really asking that? Maybe its the drip feeding of **** you get about it from birth, unsupportive home environments, homophobic environments at school, bullying, losing friends etc etc

Um, well as far as I see they wouldn't lose friends, have unsupportive home environments etc if they didn't tell people. So you're really enforcing my point.

Fbjm

Aard wrote: »

Usually because they're not entirely sure themselves at the start. By the time they notice, they've been bombarded with messages that it's not normal at best and that it's downright evil at worst.

That's a good point, never thought of it that way. Ok, here's an anecdote. All throughout secondary school there was this guy who was gay, though nobody really cared. There were a few openly gay people, but my point is, would they not notice that their behaviour wasn't the norm? Hanging out with girls, putting on that weird voice etc.

Chuchoter

Fbjm wrote: »

Um, well as far as I see they wouldn't lose friends, have unsupportive home environments etc if they didn't tell people. So you're really enforcing my point.

Sorry I think I misread what you said, are you asking why they don't tell everyone or why they do tell everyone?
If you stay in the closet you're stuck lying to everyone all the time and constantly stressed. Then a lot of people (like me) try to stay in the closet and just fail miserably at it because people like gossip.


@Ambersky: I had guessed that you were somehow involved in the organizations in question. I respect the work of GLEN and Belongto, I just take issue with their approaches to things. If the department and unions really cared more would be done. Just as a case in point, the only reason I or any of my friends from schools in the surrounding area know about the stand up campaign is because it went around as a joke on Facebook. It was never mentioned in any of our schools. As a student who isn't out and isn't prepared to deal with any more of the crap that goes with being open to everyone, there's not a huge amount I can do about homophobia because just like Belongto, you are asking a level or pride from me I simply can't give you because of circumstances beyond my control.

rainbow kirby

Fbjm wrote: »

I know I might get some hate for this, but why don't kids just not tell everyone that they're gay?

Some just aren't ready to come out (even to themselves) when they are in secondary school.

Aard

Fbjm wrote: »

That's a good point, never thought of it that way. Ok, here's an anecdote. All throughout secondary school there was this guy who was gay, though nobody really cared. There were a few openly gay people, but my point is, would they not notice that their behaviour wasn't the norm? Hanging out with girls, putting on that weird voice etc.

Many if not most gay guys don't act that way. They're just like any other guy (sports/computers/drinking, shmoking and fighting...) except that they like guys instead of girls.

Ambersky

crayolastereo
I appreciate your honesty and despite what people say about it being much easier to be a young LGBT person nowadays I do think that the changes have also brought with them their own difficulties.
When I was in school, as a student, no one even knew the word gay let alone what it ment.
Myself and another girl looked up the word homosexual in the dictionary.
That degree of invisibility had its difficulties making it difficult to figure out if you were gay or not, without ever having seen anyone on television or real life who was gay. So there was nothing to compare yourself with.
On the other hand we were able to go over to each others houses and it was expected that girl friends would sleep together without it even crossing anyones mind that there might be anything else in it.
Now its an issue and young people have to hear the word GAY being used in a derogatory way even before they, or the users understand what the word means.

You mentioned the Stand Up campaign being sent around on Facebook as a laugh but you know no matter who stands up in whatever way there are going to be people who laugh at it.
Some will be laughing to be one of the crowd, some will be laughing to hide their own embarassment, some to hide their own sexuality and some just because they are immature.
They will grow out of it, hopefully, when you are confident and comfortable in your own sexuality you dont need to laugh at others, its a sign of insecurity really.
Also of course the video is emotional, soppy even and boys in particular cant be seen to be moved by that. I dont understand boys but thats not my problem.
I do know a lot of people who were moved by the video and yes a lot of them are in tredy comprehensives but good for them. I celebrate anywhere there are positive changes especially if they are willing to work to spread those changes around.

The fact that lots of the stuff we have been talking about hasnt even been mentioned in your school is a problem probably with the homophobia of individual teachers.
Teachers need a lot of work.
They can be among the most conservative, know it all, bossy people around. Again;)
Thats why its so brave for the teachers to be marching in Pride.
Some of them will be risking their jobs to do so.
Those of us who will be there are doing it for ourselves, our right to be who we are without fear and for our students so that they can have positive role models, someone to possibly talk to and someone who can deal with some of the bullying a little better than it has been.

I dont blame you for not being out in a school that isnt supportive.
In schools that have a policy of using inclusive language, including the possibility that someone might have a same sex partner in ordinary conversation, include LGBT issues positively in sex ed and has Out teaching staff, it is a bit easier and you would be supported.
Some brave individuals are able to come out even in non supportive environments but not everyone is the same.
These things dont happen overnight, someone has to start them and they are usually laughed at in the beginning, it happens little by little and the next thing you know someone is saying So What Your Gay, I Dont Know What All The Fuss Is About.
Eventually when it OK people start saying they dont know what all the fuss is about and they forget all the hard work that went into making it that way.

Im sure you have heard this before but It Does Get Easier.
The bit you have to watch out for is the internalised homophobia, you will probably spend a lot of time getting that out of your system.
Internalised homophobia is when the voices stop calling names and laughing but you start to do the job for them, putting yourself down, believing you are less than, settling for less than you deserve,putting down other gays for one reason or another just to distance yourself from them, or just plain feeling ashamed.
Pride is the antidote to all that, whatever kind of Pride you choose, be it waving flags in a pink tutu, or just feeling it gently inside.
Take your time, go gently on yourself and it wont be long before you are out of school and there is so much ahead of you.

Sorry if I was a bit hard on you, demanding more positivity than you can give.
I hope challenging you helps you develop your own ideas and flexes your brain rather than puts you down.
Youll have a better chance of not reacting to all the negativity when you leave school and get a wider choice of company you keep
You do fight hard and it shows strength, youll be Ok.

I would like it if we could support all efforts being made to create better school environments.
Its easy to put things down but its difficult to come up with real soloutions.
It can be difficult when a particular approach workes for you individually to translate that into a programme that will help others be able to do what you are able to do.
Also there is a lot of either/or thinking going on as in either this approach works or this approach works, if one works the other doesnt.
Individuals can try different approaches and groups can attempt something that doesnt change everything or work for everyone but does some good for some, and its all ok.
But there are people who are interested in hearing about new ideas, new approaches and as I said especially interested in anyone or any group who could put something concrete together that would help, posters, videos, etc.

PS I think you can be part of BeLonG To, as in go to some meetings etc without being Out.
Its all part of a process everyone has to go through, surely they would understand.

Fbjm

crayolastereo wrote: »

Sorry I think I misread what you said, are you asking why they don't tell everyone or why they do tell everyone?
If you stay in the closet you're stuck lying to everyone all the time and constantly stressed. Then a lot of people (like me) try to stay in the closet and just fail miserably at it because people like gossip.


@Ambersky: I had guessed that you were somehow involved in the organizations in question. I respect the work of GLEN and Belongto, I just take issue with their approaches to things. If the department and unions really cared more would be done. Just as a case in point, the only reason I or any of my friends from schools in the surrounding area know about the stand up campaign is because it went around as a joke on Facebook. It was never mentioned in any of our schools. As a student who isn't out and isn't prepared to deal with any more of the crap that goes with being open to everyone, there's not a huge amount I can do about homophobia because just like Belongto, you are asking a level or pride from me I simply can't give you because of circumstances beyond my control.

Neither, I'm suggesting they don't.

Locker10a

Ahhh im really worried now im doing my Leaving Cert (Should be studing) So this is the end of 2nd Level education for me! And i loved school! Never experianced anything near whats mentioned on this thread! Have never been bullied ! While im not officaly "out" i might as well be! And still i got along well with everyone never had a word said to me!
Now i know people would be saying stuff behind my back but no one really cared ! Have loads of friends and lovely teachers! The reason i feel worried is i feel ive had it to easy at school! compared to everyone else, hope this dosent mean il get my share of bulling experiance at 3rd leval:(

Annasopra

No locker 10a - 3rd level is in my experience much more tolerant and liberal than 2nd level

apache

Locker10a wrote: »

Ahhh im really worried now im doing my Leaving Cert (Should be studing) So this is the end of 2nd Level education for me! And i loved school! Never experianced anything near whats mentioned on this thread! Have never been bullied ! While im not officaly "out" i might as well be! And still i got along well with everyone never had a word said to me!
Now i know people would be saying stuff behind my back but no one really cared ! Have loads of friends and lovely teachers! The reason i feel worried is i feel ive had it to easy at school! compared to everyone else, hope this dosent mean il get my share of bulling experiance at 3rd leval:(

i think it is very important to share positive stories like this. i can't stress it enough.
i am out in my everyday life. work/friends/family/social but never make a point of it. i personally do not see the relevance.
however i had the mother of all days in work today.
i work with quite a few lesbians and gays but very few of us are out. people come to me with ask me stupid ignorant questions constantly and i get bored very easily. :rolleyes:
they only ask me because they know i will not get offended and am easy to talk to. i do get offended sometimes but sure what can you do? all i can do is try and educate them. well i know they say it to my face instead of behind my back like they do the others which i do appreciate.

but i have realised that you cannot educate some people. in fairness what have people being exposed to about being gay? they have little life experience in this subject and can only gauge what they see in the media.

in fairness now all a lesbian needs is a good ride from a man to turn her and there is always someone to provide such services :rolleyes:

i like these people as people not for their views and vice versa. therefore as long as we get on as people that is all that matters. that is the vital key to education and awareness.
i think you need to shine as a person first. your sexuality is secondary to this.

i don't think that shoving gay rights in peoples faces is the way to go. i have nothing to prove.
i believe most of our prejudices lie within ourselves.

edit - i have also noted that a lot of active users of these boards are in their teens/twenties. would i be right in that observation? that may be a contributing factor also.

wonderfulname

Fbjm wrote: »

I know I might get some hate for this, but why don't kids just not tell everyone that they're gay?

So far I've been keeping out of this discussion but I figured I'd jump in on this point. "Gay bullying" as we're calling it, isn't just the traditional bulling of "oi, he likes boys, bate him". It comprises of a few other issues as well. One of which is passive, its the use of gay slurs, gay related words being banded around as insults etc etc. Look at some of the distressed thread that are started here by young people in the closet, afraid to come out because their friends call every crap thing in their lives "gay", to the point the poor closeted person thinks they would hate them too. They have no concrete proof that their peers are homophobic, just that bloody usage. So really, whether they're out or not, our society will see to it that its highly likely LGBT kids come out of school with some baggage surrounding their sexuality, even more so that it will be great.

Another thing on this, being invisible doesn't help anyone, it has the opposite effect. When people have no factual knowledge and no first hand experience they rely on a vague position they have gained by process of osmosis throughout their childhood years, a short lifetime of funny looks at certain people, tuts at gay tv characters, maybe certain family members not being talked about builds into an overall negative perspective which a young person can't quantify, and which can be informed, and changed so long as the silence does not continue. Even the ones who've been stuck with severe homophobia growing up can stand on their own two feet and formulate their own opinions if given the tools, however if they're stuck with silence they really are screwed.
When I came out in secondary school I was dealing with the former kind, in fact I never even noticed it until I came out to one friend. I never linked the slang "gay" with the sexuality, but I did start picking up on peoples actual crazy perceptions, if you like girls, you like ALL girls (not a nice one in a boarding school), a general position of gay people being less than, vague concept that being gay was some sort of disease, other loose crap. At some point it was decided some other girl was bi, I have never seen a group of people act like such ravenous vultures as my peer group did that day, and they were not by any means all that homophobic - it was like the ICA on speed or something. I came out that day, tore them to shreds and then took questions. That crap never happened again in my time at that school because those kids knew what gay was.
I went to two more schools, came out to two different peer groups, stood my ground and answered questions. Without fail it had a result of reducing homophobia in younger years and all but removing it from my own, not because they were afraid of offending, because I answered their questions and they finally formed an opinion where they previously had not been given the material to do so. It would even filter down, become self policing, they were no longer afraid to talk about it.

In all three schools staff treated me like a grenade had just landed in their midst and they had but a few seconds before they'd find out if it were a dud or not. Sexuality was not talked about, end of. In transition year I used to mention it for a laugh, because it gave teachers heart attacks. They should have been the ones answering kids questions, not me. They were supposed to be the educators. They should be fully equipped to deal with the kinds of questions teens have surrounding their identity, fully equipped to speak on it if necessary, and required to host that kind of discussion now and then.

I am certainly not advocating every queer teen in the country come out, I know a lot for whom that couldn't have gone worse, who were hounded out of school or who still have massive mental issues as a result of the remainder of their time there, so please don't take that message from what I said. I'm saying that if kids are educated, as they are bloody well supposed to be in school, in a serious and concise manner, the vast majority of the negative behaviours and attitudes towards LGBT youth will cease. Special school rules won't help, they could even backfire, sitting everyone around and making them watch that belongto ad won't help, information will.

apache

wonderfulname wrote: »

So far I've been keeping out of this discussion but I figured I'd jump in on this point. "Gay bullying" as we're calling it, isn't just the traditional bulling of "oi, he likes boys, bate him". It comprises of a few other issues as well. One of which is passive, its the use of gay slurs, gay related words being banded around as insults etc etc. Look at some of the distressed thread that are started here by young people in the closet, afraid to come out because their friends call every crap thing in their lives "gay", to the point the poor closeted person thinks they would hate them too. They have no concrete proof that their peers are homophobic, just that bloody usage. So really, whether they're out or not, our society will see to it that its highly likely LGBT kids come out of school with some baggage surrounding their sexuality, even more so that it will be great.

Another thing on this, being invisible doesn't help anyone, it has the opposite effect. When people have no factual knowledge and no first hand experience they rely on a vague position they have gained by process of osmosis throughout their childhood years, a short lifetime of funny looks at certain people, tuts at gay tv characters, maybe certain family members not being talked about builds into an overall negative perspective which a young person can't quantify, and which can be informed, and changed so long as the silence does not continue. Even the ones who've been stuck with severe homophobia growing up can stand on their own two feet and formulate their own opinions if given the tools, however if they're stuck with silence they really are screwed.
When I came out in secondary school I was dealing with the former kind, in fact I never even noticed it until I came out to one friend. I never linked the slang "gay" with the sexuality, but I did start picking up on peoples actual crazy perceptions, if you like girls, you like ALL girls (not a nice one in a boarding school), a general position of gay people being less than, vague concept that being gay was some sort of disease, other loose crap. At some point it was decided some other girl was bi, I have never seen a group of people act like such ravenous vultures as my peer group did that day, and they were not by any means all that homophobic - it was like the ICA on speed or something. I came out that day, tore them to shreds and then took questions. That crap never happened again in my time at that school because those kids knew what gay was.
I went to two more schools, came out to two different peer groups, stood my ground and answered questions. Without fail it had a result of reducing homophobia in younger years and all but removing it from my own, not because they were afraid of offending, because I answered their questions and they finally formed an opinion where they previously had not been given the material to do so. It would even filter down, become self policing, they were no longer afraid to talk about it.

In all three schools staff treated me like a grenade had just landed in their midst and they had but a few seconds before they'd find out if it were a dud or not. Sexuality was not talked about, end of. In transition year I used to mention it for a laugh, because it gave teachers heart attacks. They should have been the ones answering kids questions, not me. They were supposed to be the educators. They should be fully equipped to deal with the kinds of questions teens have surrounding their identity, fully equipped to speak on it if necessary, and required to host that kind of discussion now and then.

I am certainly not advocating every queer teen in the country come out, I know a lot for whom that couldn't have gone worse, who were hounded out of school or who still have massive mental issues as a result of the remainder of their time there, so please don't take that message from what I said. I'm saying that if kids are educated, as they are bloody well supposed to be in school, in a serious and concise manner, the vast majority of the negative behaviours and attitudes towards LGBT youth will cease. Special school rules won't help, they could even backfire, sitting everyone around and making them watch that belongto ad won't help, information will.

what a fantastic post wonderfulname! *blows a big kiss*
i know its a lot more complicated for each individual and that cannot be taken away. (i know it!) only come out when you are ready and never before. there is no point doing it any other way. but when you do it do it with style and confidence. and stick to your guns. life gets easier.
my only regret was that i worried and stressed about what other people thought for such a long time. many years were wasted. noone should live their life that way.

but in saying that i do realise it is a process that most of us have to go through.

Ambersky

Wonderfulname
It seems you were very aware at a young age and able to handle the situation you found yourself in.
You say that information in schools would help. What kind of information would you like.
What do you think young people in school need to hear.
How would you like that information to be delivered.

wonderfulname

Ambersky wrote: »

Wonderfulname
It seems you were very aware at a young age and able to handle the situation you found yourself in.
You say that information in schools would help. What kind of information would you like.
What do you think young people in school need to hear.
How would you like that information to be delivered.

The whole way we approach the issue has to change. Currently we're in a situation where everyone is backed into a corner and nothing can be done. When you combine the governmental, legal and religious forces acting on teachers, regardless of their own personal beliefs you can see why they aren't going to get into the topic. Straight off the bat something needs to be done to alleviate these pressures somewhat, my own personal preference in this would be smothering the religious aspect and strengthening the position of the department, a nice first step in that would be doing something about that section 37.

I am aware that the curriculum of some of the social subjects says something about LGBT people, however I have yet to hear of any of it being taught and I have no idea what it entails. So bear that in mind if what I say is actually supposed to be happening.

The first thing that should be covered, which is something largely ignored, is the actual core concepts of gender and sexuality, what they are, what they mean. Then the ideas of spectrums and fluidity within these concepts, and only then, when those concepts are understood and discussed at length, should anyone start talking about LGBT people specifically. When those core concepts are understood there's really very little else that needs covering. Why variants exist perhaps, to the best of our knowledge. All the questions I've ever been asked bar one or two exceptions would be answered by an understanding of sexuality as a concept, and indeed gender, because much of the stigma stems from gender perceptions; Why are you gay, how do you know, when did you know, were you ever straight, do you want to shag every girl in this room right now, do you want to be a guy, are bi people greedy, do they like boys and girls the same, why are gay men girly, if gay men want to be with girly men and gay women want to be with manly girls why aren't they just straight etc. etc. etc. From my perspective a lot of the questions asked of transpeople fall back on the same thing. We make the mistake of answering these questions individually, and as though they are about someone else, almost some separate race of people. When you talk about the underlying concepts, which affect everyone, you benefit everyone, giving them a greater understanding of themselves and others. Anybody with half a brain realises that it makes no sense to persecute someone for a part of them that's in you too.

As for how it should be taught, it should be both delivered and discussed, like anything of that sort really, provide a group with some concrete information and use it as a platform for conversation. But before that is done teachers need to be empowered to partake in such a thing, and most of them need to get the same lesson. School boards need to learn that their place is not in deciding what is and isn't taught, or indeed what is and isn't morally acceptable. Outside of the classroom there needs to be the channels for anyone who is bullied, or anyone who is having a hard time to have a chance to speak with someone, I know they are supposed to be there but they aren't. Schools need to gain a clear ethos of equality.

And that ladies and gentlemen, that second giant wall of text I'm after contributing, is why you never ask my opinion on anything! :P