Cronyism Alive and Well

BESman

This might belong in the politics forum, but I am raising the issue of cronyism in everyday life, as opposed to politics.

An article in today's Irish Independent has revealed that TDs and ministers are still giving cushy jobs to their friends and relatives. I thought cronyism would die with the last FF government but looks like I was naive.

Cronyism really bugs me because its not just in politics, its everywhere in this country. Nearly everyone employed where I work got the job through family or some other connection. Achieving something on your own merit is a rarity these days.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-break-cronyism-pledge-by-giving-jobs-to-family-members-2667551.html

Edited version below which gives details of the appointments made.

Irish Independent Article June 07 2011

A survey by this paper found that at least 25 TDs -- out of 166 in the Dail -- had hired family members.

Training and Skills Minister Ciaran Cannon has hired his wife as his secretary and his brother-in-law as one of his drivers. The job of personal secretary to the minister, held by Mr Cannon's wife Niamh Lawless, comes with a salary of between €23,000 and €47,000. The civilian driver's post comes with a €35,000 salary.

Junior agriculture minister Shane McEntee's daughter and sister are job-sharing his personal assistant post, splitting the €44,000 salary between them.

Kerry North's Arthur Spring -- who worked as a parliamentary assistant for his uncle Dick -- has now hired his brother Graham as his own parliamentary assistant, a post with a salary of between €41,000 and €52,000. Mr Spring last night defended the appointment, and said his brother was "the best person for the job".

Labour's Kathleen Lynch, a junior health minister, employs her husband Bernard as her personal assistant; junior enterprise minister Sean Sherlock's sister works in his office; and super-junior minister Willie Penrose employs his brother, Johnny.

Other TDs who have also hired family members include:
> Fine Gael Waterford TD Paudie Coffey, whose wife Suzanne is his part-time secretarial assistant.
> Fine Gael Louth TD and county football manager Peter Fitzpatrick, whose daughter Grace is his secretarial assistant, a position that comes with a salary of around €23,000.
> Fianna Fail Laois-Offaly TD Sean Fleming employs his wife Mary as his part-time parliamentary assistant.
> Independent TD Mattie McGrath has his daughter Triona and niece Kathy sharing the job of his parliamentary assistant.
There was acute embarrassment within Fine Gael when the Irish Independent previously revealed that Kerry South TD Brendan Griffin -- who had promised during the election campaign to give up half his salary -- hired his wife Roisin as his secretarial assistant, his cousin Tommy Griffin as his parliamentary assistant and helped another cousin, Matt Griffin, get his old council seat.
Another TD, Dublin North's Alan Farrell, also caused embarrassment when he hired his wife Emma Doyle as a parliamentary assistant, although he later claimed that this was a temporary appointment.

- Fiach Kelly Political Correspondent

Gunsfortoys

This won't get as many hits as an x-factor thread OP.:rolleyes:

Dangerous Man

The only thing that's shocking about any of this is that there are people in Ireland who thought things would change by electing a different shower of rats to the ones there before. Nepotism, 'cronyism,' backhanders, jobs for the boys, nixers, digouts, strokes, etc are absolutely ingrained into Irish culture. The people you are voting for are the same people down the road who operate the quarry, or who own the small building company etc.

It's something that's wrong not just with the political class alone - it's an Irish problem. It's acceptable in politics because it's accepted everywhere else. Think about it - do you think politicians would behave as they do if they didn't see or feel their behaviour was replicated elsewhere?

Naikon

Dangerous Man wrote: »

The only thing that's shocking about any of this is that there are people in Ireland who thought things would change by electing a different shower of rats to the ones there before. Nepotism, 'cronyism,' backhanders, jobs for the boys, nixers, digouts, strokes, etc are absolutely ingrained into Irish culture. The people you are voting for are the same people down the road who run the operate the quarry, or who own the small building company.

It's something that's wrong not just with the political class alone - it's an Irish problem. It's acceptable in politics because it's accepted everywhere else. Thing about it - do you think politicians would behave as they do if they didn't see or feel their behaviour was replicated elsewhere?

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

-the who

BESman

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

This won't get as many hits as an x-factor thread OP.:rolleyes:

Sure that show is filled with it. Tulisa is Simon's brother's girlfriend's niece.

Dangerous Man

Naikon wrote: »

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

-the who

Exactly. Those damned drug-filled hippies with their guitars and their hair and their attitude were right.

BESman

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Exactly. Those damned drug-filled hippies with their guitars and their hair and their attitude were right.

I hate when hippies are right.

The Scientician

I think there's a distinction to be made between a company's owner hiring someone they know to work in their company, and the doling out of publicly-paid jobs or contracts to friends of elected officials.

One leads to a loss or misuse of the public's money. The other does not. If a business owner wants to hire her own incompetent son to run her company that's her prerogative. If an elected official does similar, it's everybody's business. When an elected official does anything in an official capacity it is meant to be to the benefit of those who've elected them, not themselves and their families/friends.

(Of course, there are other problems with private company nepotism. For example, when it comes up against gender equality legislation.)

I don't see the problem, might as well give work to someone you know rather than some random person. We have nearly all benefitted from knowing people when it comes to getting a job, it's not like it's a rare thing.

BESman

The Scientician wrote: »

I think there's a distinction to be made between a company's owner hiring someone they know to work in their company, and the doling out of publicly-paid jobs or contracts to friends of elected officials.

One leads to a loss or misuse of the public's money. The other does not. If a business owner wants to hire her own incompetent son to run her company that's her prerogative. If an elected official does similar, it's everybody's business. When an elected official does anything in an official capacity it is meant to be to the benefit of those who've elected them, not themselves and their families/friends.

(Of course, there are other problems with private company nepotism. For example, when it comes up against gender equality legislation.)

Agreed. Still annoys me though whether its public or private. I think a lot of larger companies have proper HR policies and ethical guidelines now which set out standard hiring procedures that prevent nepotism and the like. Not sure how well this works in practise.

In public appointments, completely unacceptable and I'm shocked by the ease with which these TDs and ministers have placed their friends and relatives into these positions. Surely there must be protocols and procedures for these kind of appointments which prevent a TD/minister from putting whoever he feels like into the job. What about competence and suitability?

My name is URL

They're not really breaking any laws or rules though. For all anyone knows, the people hired are well suited to the jobs. Can anyone here honestly say that they wouldn't do the same provided the person is suitable for the role they're given?

Micky Dolenz

does it really annoy you or does it annoy you that you don't know anyone that can get you a cushy number?

As long as there are people in the world, it will nearly always be a matter of who you know.

The Scientician

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

does it really annoy you or does it annoy you that you don't know anyone that can get you a cushy number?

In the public sector, if a job, any job, is actually a cushy number it shouldn't exist, or at the very least, shouldn't pay as much. That's quite apart from who's hired to do the job. :pac:

RockinRolla

Of course things won't change with new faces - same system, what did anyone expect? The fact of the matter is that people don't want change (would someone please think of the children folk), they want to go back to the good old days. Only problem is, it's completely unsustainable. We can't borrow money forever - in all honesty, the only reason we're being made pay this back now is because the government wants to borrow more. It should seem like a problem suited to a first class student but that's the reality of the situation. Essentially, this new government, as with the last one have no idea's and will continue to swap and change policies and attitudes depending on what the Irish people feel that particular day. It's not a great plan, but it's a sure-fire way to keep their seats, which is the fundamental goal of any political party.

Labour are completely irrelevant at this stage - Gilmore would of been better to buy a saddle so that Kenny could ride him in comfort. Shane Ross and the other Independents are hypocritical. That is, they can complain all day about the poor being at the wrong end of the stick, but by God, they won't refuse another payday. Our public sector is completely out of control - overstaffed and underperforming. The only real change will come when the ECB goes bust and the Euro, as a currency falls on it's head. Ireland will retreat to the punt and not a day too soon. Sadly, the longer we hold out, the greater the pain will ultimately be. In principle, I'm all for water charges, but to slap a tax on it for the sole purpose of paying back the Europeans is what I unequivocally oppose. I believe and have noted the vast scare-mongering coming from all corners of the mainstream media concerning default - nothing could be further from the truth. If it's a compelling growth story, we'll get attention. These people are not interested about grudges, they're in it for the money.

Others complain about regulation or lack of it in our banks. This is also a great fallacy. It wasn't deregulation that got us here, it was the bailing out of them. In a true capitalist society, those private institutions would have gone tits up, and their remains bought on the market - end of story. Now, we find ourselves in this situation propping up zombie banks with our personal wages we could have spent on our children, our bills and our expenses. It's a depressing position but unfortunately the 'yesmen' that pass for "professionals" and "politicians" in this country will not be the one's to do it. They truly believe in Europe and their fanatacism is well out in the open. People will say I'm going too far, but it's the truth. We're being mugged left right and centre in this country. It's a difficult place to get by but there are easier ways to approach this problem. In fact, we could all be over and done with this period of our history if we had the right people in Dail Eireann. We must roll back the state. My only concern is when we do, how much damage will ultimately be done...

BESman

Anabelle Elegant Mound wrote: »

I don't see the problem, might as well give work to someone you know rather than some random person. We have nearly all benefitted from knowing people when it comes to getting a job, it's not like it's a rare thing. I know I have.

My name is URL wrote: »

They're not really breaking any laws or rules though. For all anyone knows, the people hired are well suited to the jobs. Can anyone here honestly say that they wouldn't do the same provided the person is suitable for the role they're given?

You're right in that its not rare, its widespread.

I think it depends on the kind of job. If you own a shop and you hire your nephew to stack shelves and the like, that seems fine to me. As you say, better to give employment to someone you know than a complete stranger.

If its a high paying, somewhat skilled job, lets say a supervisor on a factory floor, I think it is then unfair that the person gets this job through being a relative or otherwise. The job requires competence and should be open to suitable candidates for application. Of course the relative or friend might be suitably qualified and competent but they should have to compete for the job under normal circumstances.

The underlying principle here is that cronyism or nepotism (or whatever best describes it) prevents the most suitable person for the job from getting it. It presents the risk of a less suitable, less qualified and less competent person obtaining a position by virtue of their relationship with the employer through birth or otherwise. This is unfair.

There is a whole other can of worms here in relation to elitism and social class and the perception that the wealthy and those in positions of power look after their own. I do not wish to present a Marxist position here, but I do think there is some credence to this and it is definitely more difficult for those without connections to make it in the world. For this reason, I have huge admiration for "self-made" successful people and those that achieve things on their own merit and not because of who they know or who they are related to.

hondasam

The Scientician wrote: »

In the public sector, if a job, any job, is actually a cushy number it shouldn't exist, or at the very least, shouldn't pay as much. That's quite apart from who's hired to do the job. :pac:

Just as well Public sector jobs are not cushy so.

Naikon

hondasam wrote: »

Just as well Public sector jobs are not cushy so.

Most lower paid positions, probably not. Once you move up the ladder though, incompetance and job security goes through the roof.

BESman

Naikon wrote: »

Most lower paid positions, probably not. Once you move up the ladder though, incompetance and job security goes through the roof.

The things you hear...its actually kind of scary.

I used to know someone workingdo nothing in Revenue.

hondasam

BESman wrote: »

The things you hear...its actually kind of scary.

I used to know someone workingdo nothing in Revenue.

what did you hear that scared you ?

Naikon

BESman wrote: »

The things you hear...its actually kind of scary.

I used to know someone workingdo nothing in Revenue.

True. There are some real horror stories out there. Personally, I would not brand every PS worker as a deadbeat. That is unfair imo. That is like saying every person on the dole is a cheat. Beyond stupidity. Still, you can't say there isn't a large majority of idiotic civil servants about. Abuse of power will always be too strong for some.

BESman

hondasam wrote: »

what did you hear that scared you ?

Turn up for work at any hour.

Got about 35 days annual leave.

10 - 15 days sick leave on top of this - PAID.

Seemed to spend the day emailing friends and doing very little actual work.

Basically, this person would be fired in the private sector but had no discernible skills which would enable employment in the private sector.

And as Naikon says, this is just one example. I am not branding all PS workers as lazy or incompetent and I hope this thread doesn't turn into a Private vs Public sector row. A lot of PS workers do a great job, particularly nurses and all emergency service workers.

Naikon

BESman wrote: »

Turn up for work at any hour.

Got about 35 days annual leave.

10 - 15 days sick leave on top of this - PAID.

Seemed to spend the day emailing friends and doing very little actual work.

Basically, this person would be fired in the private sector but had no discernible skills which would enable employment in the private sector.

And as Naikon says, this is just one example. I am not branding all PS workers as lazy or incompetent and I hope this thread doesn't turn into a Private vs Public sector row. A lot of PS workers do a great job, particularly nurses and all emergency service workers.

Don't forget that fat pension. You should be judged on your performance, not merely the number of years worked. The problem with PS jobs in general, is that there are no real incentives towards increased productivity. Some workers will abuse this to extreme levels. You won't find a salesman in the public sector!

Nurses and other critical workers are vastly underpaid for the work they carry out. I agree with that.

UrsCanB

Has anyone else seen this shocking article in the Daily Mail re Kathleen Lynch? Makes the cronyism seem tame! Why are the other papers ignoring this? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2005451/Bernard-Lynch-serves-assistant-junior-minister-wife-served-year-bars.html

RichieC

NEWS FLASH!



NOT.

dsmythy

The Scientician wrote: »

I think there's a distinction to be made between a company's owner hiring someone they know to work in their company, and the doling out of publicly-paid jobs or contracts to friends of elected officials.

One leads to a loss or misuse of the public's money. The other does not. If a business owner wants to hire her own incompetent son to run her company that's her prerogative. If an elected official does similar, it's everybody's business. When an elected official does anything in an official capacity it is meant to be to the benefit of those who've elected them, not themselves and their families/friends.

(Of course, there are other problems with private company nepotism. For example, when it comes up against gender equality legislation.)

So how do we know all the above appointments are incompetant people?