BBC3 Our War 2100 tonight

Wicklowrider

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01175hg

Might Interest some people here.

" Series marking the ten-year anniversary of the war in Afghanistan, telling the story of the conflict through the words and pictures of the young soldiers themselves"

jonniebgood1

This was interesting for many reasons. There seemed alot of soldiers did not return for a second tour.

If I can be excused for being slightly philosophical I thought one of the soldiers near the end of the program showed one of the big problems with this type of imbalanced (in terms of power) war. It was also some bravado but one of the returned soldiers commented that if they were to lose 1 of their regiment that they would kill 30 to 40 Afghan soldiers. This was closely followed with a comment about 'an eye for an eye'. So that equates to 1 British life =30/40 Afghan lives. This is a reflection of the wider conflicts in both Afghanistan and Iraq in terms of the casualties where native casualties are glossed over whilst British/ American casualties are dwelt on.

Fratton Fred

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This was interesting for many reasons. There seemed alot of soldiers did not return for a second tour.

If I can be excused for being slightly philosophical I thought one of the soldiers near the end of the program showed one of the big problems with this type of imbalanced (in terms of power) war. It was also some bravado but one of the returned soldiers commented that if they were to lose 1 of their regiment that they would kill 30 to 40 Afghan soldiers. This was closely followed with a comment about 'an eye for an eye'. So that equates to 1 British life =30/40 Afghan lives. This is a reflection of the wider conflicts in both Afghanistan and Iraq in terms of the casualties where native casualties are glossed over whilst British/ American casualties are dwelt on.

I would say that is simply a reflection on war itself, not a reflection on one life being more important than another.

Surely the "You hurt me, I'll hurt you more" attitude is how wars are won.

Teangalad

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This was interesting for many reasons. There seemed alot of soldiers did not return for a second tour.

If I can be excused for being slightly philosophical I thought one of the soldiers near the end of the program showed one of the big problems with this type of imbalanced (in terms of power) war. It was also some bravado but one of the returned soldiers commented that if they were to lose 1 of their regiment that they would kill 30 to 40 Afghan soldiers. This was closely followed with a comment about 'an eye for an eye'. So that equates to 1 British life =30/40 Afghan lives. This is a reflection of the wider conflicts in both Afghanistan and Iraq in terms of the casualties where native casualties are glossed over whilst British/ American casualties are dwelt on.

Did he say Afghan soldiers??? they are allies of the British and Americans...

LondonIrish90

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This was interesting for many reasons. There seemed alot of soldiers did not return for a second tour.

If I can be excused for being slightly philosophical I thought one of the soldiers near the end of the program showed one of the big problems with this type of imbalanced (in terms of power) war. It was also some bravado but one of the returned soldiers commented that if they were to lose 1 of their regiment that they would kill 30 to 40 Afghan soldiers. This was closely followed with a comment about 'an eye for an eye'. So that equates to 1 British life =30/40 Afghan lives. This is a reflection of the wider conflicts in both Afghanistan and Iraq in terms of the casualties where native casualties are glossed over whilst British/ American casualties are dwelt on.

These are the first hand views and raw emotions of the men who have served on the front line. Being fair, who's life do you think matters more to a British platoon commander? The 19 year old from his home city who he has been fighing and living with for the last 5 months, or the taliban fighter doing his best to either shoot or blow up any British soldier he sees?

If he thinks one British life is far more important, I don't think I will argue with him. I've never experienced war so I don't think it is right for me to criticise the way a soldier reacts in those most testing and desperate of circumstances.

PatsytheNazi

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This was interesting for many reasons. There seemed alot of soldiers did not return for a second tour.

If I can be excused for being slightly philosophical I thought one of the soldiers near the end of the program showed one of the big problems with this type of imbalanced (in terms of power) war. It was also some bravado but one of the returned soldiers commented that if they were to lose 1 of their regiment that they would kill 30 to 40 Afghan soldiers. This was closely followed with a comment about 'an eye for an eye'. So that equates to 1 British life =30/40 Afghan lives. This is a reflection of the wider conflicts in both Afghanistan and Iraq in terms of the casualties where native casualties are glossed over whilst British/ American casualties are dwelt on.

In a gun battle the Brits would kill 30 to 40 Taliban for one Brit - almost laughable, Bravo Two Zero time :rolleyes:

LondonIrish90

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

In a gun battle the Brits would kill 30 to 40 Taliban for one Brit - almost laughable, Bravo Two Zero time :rolleyes:

Considering that the British have fast air, attack helicopters, heavy artillery to call on, its not that speculative a figure.

If you ever read books accounting events in Helmand you will realise just how many taliban can be taken out in a single contact.

R.Dub.Fusilier

i watched it and found it an interisting view of the ordinary soldier on the ground. from the point of view of a British soldier i can understand an eye for an eye .
IMO what comes accross from most first hand accounts of war , aside from death and destruction, is the ordinary soldier fighting for the man beside him and not fro the cause of the actual cause of the war.

BlastedGlute

That sure is an old hat user name there r.d.fuzzy!

I would never take the words of one soldier as an overview of the entire context of the afghan theatre. Unless that was from an officer or someone who truly feels the pressure of the top brass, has lost men but has survived himself/herself. Sometimes younger privates can get a bit carried away with their thoughts and try to project an image if unflinching aggression but in reality this is most certainly not always the way. Contacts can often be very timid and frustrating, there's certainly no Rambo like 30-40 kill count for a single loss to the troop/section,but I do remember in the early days if the conflict that some figures were this high,but it's not regular. Besides the British army as a general rule for regular forces will not engage when odds are not 3:1 for ISAF:Taliban. There was a young man receiving an award from the queen recently, I forget exactly what award it was right now but his description of his war experience afterwards was interesting, he noted that he could count on both hands the amount if bad days he had in Afghanistan, and that the rest were just having a good laugh with your mates. A clear sign of a troop that was tasked with simply patrolling around a FOB or even bastion itself. On the other hand if your troop is tasked with long range recon patrols which see you out on patrol for up to 40 days,sometimes more, sleeping next to your transport every night and getting resupply rations and ammo drops to keep you out there, then that's not a whole lot of fun with your mates and is not something your likely to relish. It's a highly stressful environment but it really depends on your role. So as above, you simply can't take the words of a few recruits to stand for what the entire uk contingent of ISAF forces is experiencing.

Redbhoy1969

What I found most interesting was the young Company Commander writing such a detailed letter home to the dead soldiers family on the grounds that he was afraid the inquest wouldnt answer any questions the family had ref their son/brother dying.Certainally a long way from a telegram or a uniform turning up with little or no details.

RMD

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

In a gun battle the Brits would kill 30 to 40 Taliban for one Brit - almost laughable, Bravo Two Zero time :rolleyes:

They're dealing with an extremely inferior, poorly trained and poorly armed group. They've an extreme advantage in the weapons at their disposal including Apache helicopters and Fast Air attacks. I wouldn't be surprised if it's more than 30/40 and that's not a reflection on purely the British army, that goes for all ISAF forces to be honest.

twinytwo

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

In a gun battle the Brits would kill 30 to 40 Taliban for one Brit - almost laughable, Bravo Two Zero time :rolleyes:

here we go again ... every thread... dont you have some dolls to go play with???

BlastedGlute

Whatever misconceptions there may be about the Taliban in Helmend being poorly trained and poorly armed, there's a lot that can be said for fighting men who feel they have nothing to lose. The Taliban are an intelligent often courageous force who have for the last 10 years(not counting the soviet invasion prior to ISAF) managed to fend off the complete integration of the worlds forces on their home territory. They know the land and how to move through it, they have control of the locals and the hearts and minds of their supports, something ISAF have struggled to even truly begin to establish. Very small pockets of afghans truly support us over there, and those are generally the ones who know how to milk the occupation for the money they can get. All I'm saying is, no matter what support you want to give to the war(I dont support the war I support the troops) you can't say that the Taliban are poorly trained and poorly equipped as some sort of premise to them being unable to fight, because they ****ing well can.

RMD

They're certainly a formidable fighter, but a poorly trained fighter who is poorly armed. They know the lie of the land, know the local people and are convinced they'll go to paradise as a martyr if they die which makes them a very formidable force. But as I've said, their arms are limited and their fighting ability isn't comparable to that of coalition forces. What makes them effective is their knowledge, their ability to quickly blend back into the locals and their beliefs in death.

They have support in the Pakistan boarder region but that's really it, if they were supported throughout the country the fighting wouldn't be mostly confined to Helmand province. If they were truly supported throughout Afghanistan, the Taliban would have a much larger force than the estimated 40,000 members of which a large percentage are actually from Pakistan.

p1akuw47h5r3it

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/commando-on-the-front-line/

This is a documentary I came across, follows Royal marines from training to War. I have only watched ten minutes but looks good enough, sorry for being off topic didn't know where else to post

BlastedGlute

I wish that documentry actually showed what commando training is like and not just the video diary of some short ass st vincent kid who never became a commando in the first place. If you have been or know anyone who went to RT they'll testify it was nowhere near as straight forward as that docu made it look.

muppet01

The Taliban/ Afghan fighter is not poorly trained.Maybe in the parade ground sense i would agree but thay are battle hardened .War is a way of life in the tribal regions.
They have a saying " You may have the watches, we have the time..."

p1akuw47h5r3it

BlastedGlute wrote: »

I wish that documentry actually showed what commando training is like and not just the video diary of some short ass st vincent kid who never became a commando in the first place. If you have been or know anyone who went to RT they'll testify it was nowhere near as straight forward as that docu made it look.

Ye I havent watched the whole thing just thought I would post. Only watched 15 minutes so far.

BlastedGlute

Ah no I mean it's a good watch but christ they really missed out on the brutal side of that training program.

p1akuw47h5r3it

BlastedGlute wrote: »

Ah no I mean it's a good watch but christ they really missed out on the brutal side of that training program.

Ye seems fairly easy from what i have watched so far tbh.

RMD

DanDan6592 wrote: »

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/commando-on-the-front-line/

This is a documentary I came across, follows Royal marines from training to War. I have only watched ten minutes but looks good enough, sorry for being off topic didn't know where else to post

Great documentary, interesting to watch the transition of nod to bootneck. Even more interesting is the producer Chris Terrel did the Commando course along with 924 troop and earned his green lid at the age of 55.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK9e-bUZq14

This is also a good documentary, provides a more "honest" look at the training even though it's 11 years old. Commando on the Frontline certainly leaves out a lot of the beastings and other crap involved in RT.

p1akuw47h5r3it

RMD wrote: »

Great documentary, interesting to watch the transition of nod to bootneck. Even more interesting is the producer Chris Terrel did the Commando course along with 924 troop and earned his green lid at the age of 55.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK9e-bUZq14

This is also a good documentary, provides a more "honest" look at the training even though it's 11 years old. Commando on the Frontline certainly leaves out a lot of the beastings and other crap involved in RT.

Ye is very interesting, still watching it am enjoying it. And cool thanks I'll check out that doc too.

These documentaries really making me consider the Royal Marines.

RMD

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Ye is very interesting, still watching it am enjoying it. And cool thanks I'll check out that doc too.

These documentaries really making me consider the Royal Marines.

I've watch Commando 3 times now and Real Life twice, I'm fascinated by the RMs, will certainly consider enlisting after Uni.

They have an official forum on their site if you ever give it proper consideration, good bunch of lads on it all supporting each other with some great info.

Poccington

BlastedGlute wrote: »

Ah no I mean it's a good watch but christ they really missed out on the brutal side of that training program.

In fairness though, while it's a documentary on training they were never gonna show everything. Some things go on that just don't belong on television. Plus, can't ruin the surprise completely for any new Recruits :P

It's pretty much the same with the Surviving The Cut series etc. they're never gonna show everything. Just enough to show what it's all about.

PatsytheNazi

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Considering that the British have fast air, attack helicopters, heavy artillery to call on, its not that speculative a figure.

If you ever read books accounting events in Helmand you will realise just how many taliban can be taken out in a single contact.

You obviously have a point regarding attack helicopters, heavy artillery etc. My point in post #6 "In a gun battle the Brits would kill 30 to 40 Taliban for one Brit, Bravo Two Zero time :rolleyes: "

BTW, do the books you mention tell how many innocent Afghan villagers are murdered by helicopters, heavy artillery and of course the trigger happy Brits for one British soldier ?

PatsytheNazi

muppet01 wrote: »

The Taliban/ Afghan fighter is not poorly trained.Maybe in the parade ground sense i would agree but thay are battle hardened .War is a way of life in the tribal regions.
They have a saying " You may have the watches, we have the time..."

You have a point there, the Viet Cong were also written off as little Asian guys in sandals and black pyjamas trying to take on the world's greatest superpower with AK47's........As well as the saying about watches, their's also a saying " An Afghan is only happy when he's fighting".

Still I reckon the Taliban are decimated. I suppose their will be continual mini/tribal wars in the country for a long time to come. The country has been at war to one extent or another since the Soviets invaded in 1979 and except the greatest fanatics, the population must be completely war weary.

RMD

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

You have a point there, the Viet Cong were also written off as little Asian guys in sandals and black pyjamas trying to take on the world's greatest superpower with AK47's........As well as the saying about watches, their's also a saying " An Afghan is only happy when he's fighting".

Still I reckon the Taliban are decimated. I suppose their will be continual mini/tribal wars in the country for a long time to come. The country has been at war to one extent or another since the Soviets invaded in 1979 and except the greatest fanatics, the population must be completely war weary.

The Taliban saw a rise in members in recent years, the Madrasas in Pakistan are one of the largest areas of recruitment for them. Their estimated forces in 2008 was 11,000. By 2010 that had risen to 36,000 of which I think 40% came from Pakistan Madrasas, I could be wrong on that though. I'd agree though the population must be completely weary and tired of war, if coalition forces continue to build infrastructure in the areas previously neglected by the Afghanistan governments, it will go a long way towards winning support of the locals, not to mention many don't like the idea of the Taliban's extremely strict interpretation of Sharia law.

PatsytheNazi

RMD wrote: »

The Taliban saw a rise in members in recent years, the Madrasas in Pakistan are one of the largest areas of recruitment for them. Their estimated forces in 2008 was 11,000. By 2010 that had risen to 36,000 of which I think 40% came from Pakistan Madrasas, I could be wrong on that though. I'd agree though the population must be completely weary and tired of war, if coalition forces continue to build infrastructure in the areas previously neglected by the Afghanistan governments, it will go a long way towards winning support of the locals, not to mention many don't like the idea of the Taliban's extremely strict interpretation of Sharia law.

As for - " if coalition forces continue to build infrastructure in the areas ". Not having a go at you but I was watching a Micheal Moore type of documentary on Afghanistan a while ago, one very important point the program maker made was this -

A) The US/coalation/UN etc say that XXXX Billions are been given for infrasture etc Sounds great.

What they don't take in account is how the money is actually spent i.e does it get siphoned away to Swiss bank accounts, build mansions and big toys for the boys for Karzai's cronies etc.

These are more political/economic matters I know, but for Afghanistan's future security, they have to be taken into account.

LondonIrish90

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

You obviously have a point regarding attack helicopters, heavy artillery etc. My point in post #6 "In a gun battle the Brits would kill 30 to 40 Taliban for one Brit, Bravo Two Zero time :rolleyes: "

BTW, do the books you mention tell how many innocent Afghan villagers are murdered by helicopters, heavy artillery and of course the trigger happy Brits for one British soldier ?

I suppose most of the figures we see come from individual battalion's tours. They may unfortunately lose a few guys during their time in Afghanistan but more often than not they have confirmed kill counts going well into the hundreds. I know a lot of these will be as a result of far superior weaponry, but at the end of the day I suppose if you have it at your disposal, you will use it and not care whether it created a less than level playing field in the green zones of Helmand!

I know also that from time to time, civilian lives are lost through ISAF operations (although the numbers are usually exaggerated to suit a specific agenda) however the ISAF soldiers never intentionally kill or wound an Afghan civilian.

I reckon you should send you missus to go and live in a taliban controlled district, and ask her to report back just how intentionally brutal and oppressive they are! It is a hard slog and many don't think it is worth the lives of the British and other isaf troops (including me) but the fact is, progress is being slowly made in some areas and the work genuinely has a positive effect for Afghanis in their own country and us back home in Europe, although we may never notice it.

PatsytheNazi

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

I suppose most of the figures we see come from individual battalion's tours. They may unfortunately lose a few guys during their time in Afghanistan but more often than not they have confirmed kill counts going well into the hundreds. I know a lot of these will be as a result of far superior weaponry, but at the end of the day I suppose if you have it at your disposal, you will use it and not care whether it created a less than level playing field in the green zones of Helmand!

I know also that from time to time, civilian lives are lost through ISAF operations (although the numbers are usually exaggurated to suit a specific agenda) however the ISAF soldiers never intentionally kill or wound an Afghan civilian.

:rolleyes:

I reckon you should send you missus to go and live in a taliban controlled district, and ask her to report back just how intentionally brutal and oppressive they are! It is a hard slog and many don't think it is worth the lives of the British and other isaf troops (including me) but the fact is, progress is being slowly made in some areas and the work genuinely has a positive effect for Afghanis in their own country and us back home in Europe, although we may never notice it.

To quote a line from the movie Full Metal Jacket (where "they" are many of the Afghan women) - " maybe they'd rather be alive than free "

LondonIrish90

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

:rolleyes:


To quote a line from the movie Full Metal Jacket (where "they" are many of the Afghan women) - " maybe they'd rather be alive than free "

Sorry if it offends you, but I genuinely don't care about the taliban. And while I cannot relate to the feelings of not only relief, but satisfaction at their deaths that front line troops can, I don't stop and reflect at their demise. The opposite is true about the British soldiers that die.

Soldiers from my city, even my old school have actually died there. There is far more of an emotional attachment there, as you can no doubt understand even if you don't agree with it. We don't do much right in Britain, but I feel we still show our servicemen and women, both past and present, the respect they deserve.

RMD

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

As for - " if coalition forces continue to build infrastructure in the areas ". Not having a go at you but I was watching a Micheal Moore type of documentary on Afghanistan a while ago, one very important point the program maker made was this -

A) The US/coalation/UN etc say that XXXX Billions are been given for infrasture etc Sounds great.

What they don't take in account is how the money is actually spent i.e does it get siphoned away to Swiss bank accounts, build mansions and big toys for the boys for Karzai's cronies etc.

These are more political/economic matters I know, but for Afghanistan's future security, they have to be taken into account.

Ye the corruption of the Afghani government is certainly a problem with funding. I might be wrong but I think coalition forces are in a way changing their method of implementing infrastructure, I remember in a documentary I saw a while ago the Commanding Officer was meeting with local elders trying to see if there's any small scale infrastructure the attached Engineer company could put in place. Small things like bridges, irrigation systems and wells. Nothing to advanced but very helpful, clearing a major road of IEDs, putting in place a few bridges, opening small medical centers and creating irrigation schemes can mean a world of difference for a small farming village.

Half of the war is winning the support of the locals, the other half is fighting the Taliban.

Jonah42

RMD wrote: »

I've watch Commando 3 times now and Real Life twice, I'm fascinated by the RMs, will certainly consider enlisting after Uni.

They have an official forum on their site if you ever give it proper consideration, good bunch of lads on it all supporting each other with some great info.

I'm thinking of trying for the Marines too.

It might interest you to know that the young Lieutenant in that show (Orlando Rogers I think was his name) was killed a few months ago in a plane crash.

KnocKnocKnock

The 17 year old from that film, sparky, also died though in Afghanistan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/3724586/Dead-British-soldier-George-Sparky-Sparks-relished-his-job-and-his-duty.html

Dogwatch

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Sorry if it offends you, but I genuinely don't care about the taliban. And while I cannot relate to the feelings of not only relief, but satisfaction at their deaths that front line troops can, I don't stop and reflect at their demise. The opposite is true about the British soldiers that die.

Soldiers from my city, even my old school have actually died there. There is far more of an emotional attachment there, as you can no doubt understand even if you don't agree with it. We don't do much right in Britain, but I feel we still show our servicemen and women, both past and present, the respect they deserve.

Dont be concerned about offending Patsy the Pansy. He/she plays the same record/CD all the time. This poster is in the wrong century.

jonniebgood1

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Sorry if it offends you, but I genuinely don't care about the taliban. And while I cannot relate to the feelings of not only relief, but satisfaction at their deaths that front line troops can, I don't stop and reflect at their demise. The opposite is true about the British soldiers that die.

Soldiers from my city, even my old school have actually died there. There is far more of an emotional attachment there, as you can no doubt understand even if you don't agree with it. We don't do much right in Britain, but I feel we still show our servicemen and women, both past and present, the respect they deserve.

It is entirely correct to care about compatriots at war and their well being, etc. But to say that you 'genuinely don't care about the taliban' casts doubts on the reasons that the soldiers from your old school have died for. If those soldiers shared your views of not caring about the taliban then what the hell are they fighting for?

RMD

Jonah42 wrote: »

I'm thinking of trying for the Marines too.

It might interest you to know that the young Lieutenant in that show (Orlando Rogers I think was his name) was killed a few months ago in a plane crash.

Ye I heard. Inspirational man to say the least, a role model for anyone considering the armed forces. Served 6 years, left and opened his own Maritime security business, clever lad.

Wicklowrider

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011x1hl

The invisible Enemy

IEDS, landmines etc.

Filmed by a Grenardier Guardsman Captain who was over Guardsman Jamie Janes when he stepped on a landmine.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Wicklowrider wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011x1hl

The invisible Enemy

IEDS, landmines etc.

Filmed by a Grenardier Guardsman Captain who was over Guardsman Jamie Janes when he stepped on a landmine.

It's poxy "not available" in my area. Am freaked!!

Hope it's put up on Youtube or something.

Wicklowrider

Jeez,
It was genuinely sobering stuff.