Forgotten sea victims of the Wilhelm Gustloff?

jonniebgood1

The Wilhelm Gustloff was a German cruise ship for loyal Nazi citizens to enjoy holidays on untill WWII. As the war neared its end The Gustloff was used to transport people from east Prussia to safety in Germany. It was spotted by a red army submarine which managed to successfully sink the ship. The tragedy of this was the large number of victims it was carrying. Howver due to the nature of the Germans crimes in eastern Europe and Russia the sinking of the Gustloff is much overlooked in terms of maritime disasters. In comparison with knowledge of the Titanic or the Lusitania (which had 5-6 times less victims) the attention on this sinking is minimal. The sinking of the Gustloff was only 1 of a series of similar sinkings in the same area.

I would like to use this thread to look into the sinkings a bit more. It was January 1945 so information should be easily sourced. There are plenty of moral arguments to be had about shipping women and children on a ship together with soldiers (Operation Hannibal), whether a wartime tragedy is comparable with peacetime tagedy (as with Titanic), comparisons with Lusitania sinking (which occured during WWI), whether it was a form of rough justice for the victims as a result of WWII aggression by their masters. I will start with some background information on the ship itself:

The Wilhelm Gustloff was the first purpose-built cruise liner for the German Labour Front (Deutsche Arbeitsfront, DAF) and used by subsidiary organisation Kraft durch Freude (KdF) (Strength Through Joy). Its purposes were to provide recreational and cultural activities for German functionaries and workers, including concerts, cruises, and other holiday trips, and as a public relations tool, to present "a more acceptable image of the Third Reich."[4] The Wilhelm Gustloff was the flagship of the KdF cruise fleet until the spring of 1939. That was her last civilian role. From then on, she served the needs of the German military.

from wiki

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The

Is that a typo or is there a video clip there or something ? Not seeing anything in this thread except 'The'.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

Is that a typo or is there a video clip there or something ? Not seeing anything in this thread except 'The'.

Apologies- put my elbow on the return button!!! I edited the first post to what its meant to be now- You will have opinions on it which will be appreciated.

Morlar

A couple of quick points.

It was a peacetime cruiseship for German civilians. Employing language such as 'Loyal Nazi Citizens' indicates a bias in my view.

During wartime it was a hospital ship. At the end of the war it was not a 'transport' it was an 'evacuation'. Desperately fleeing the red army's horrific treatment such as rape and murder.

There are plenty of moral arguments to be had about shipping women and children on a ship together with soldiers (Operation Hannibal), whether a wartime tragedy is comparable with peacetime tagedy (as with Titanic), comparisons with Lusitania sinking (which occured during WWI), whether it was a form of rough justice for the victims as a result of WWII aggression by their masters.

The 'moral argument' here is one you seek to introduce. I disagree that the fault lies with the germans for evacuating women and children along with wounded soldiers. I would also disagree with the point you introduce that it was somehow 'rough justice'.

Morlar

Here is a rough estimate of the dead :

9,400 people lost out of 10,600 onboard.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

A couple of quick points.

It was a peacetime cruiseship for German civilians. Employing language such as 'Loyal Nazi Citizens' indicates a bias in my view.

During wartime it was a hospital ship. At the end of the war it was not a 'transport' it was an 'evacuation'. Desperately fleeing the red army's horrific treatment such as rape and murder.

The 'moral argument' here is one you seek to introduce. I disagree that the fault lies with the germans for evacuating women and children along with wounded soldiers. I would also disagree with the point you introduce that it was somehow 'rough justice'.

My understanding at this stage is that the ship was built to impress by the Nazi government and that the civilians on the cruises had to attend on board Nazi propaganda as part of the attractively priced cruise- hence my 'loyal Nazi citizens ' reference. Whether it was a transport or an evacuation would depend on what was on board and also what was being transported in this shipping corridor, i.e. was war material coming in or troops being brought out (like a German version of Dunkirk for example). This information would also help in attributing fault or blame if that is not to cynical or callous a call to make. It seems from my brief look at this so far that perhaps the 3 worst maritime disasters ever (in terms of numbers lost) may have occured in this shipping corridor within a few months of each other in 1945.

Regarding morals of the attack I need more information about it. From an initial look at the losses I think alot of civilians, including women and children were lost which makes it a tragedy. It seems to have been put
down as a wartime incident without much attention being focused on it for many reasons after the war- the Germans did not wish to dwell on any WWII incidents and the Russians would not want to bring attention to them killing thousands of civilians.

jonniebgood1

This table illustrates the worst maritime disasters (excluding war ships). The figures I have seen for the Gustloff are similar to those posted already by Morlar. This table show those who were logged on board. The purpose of this table is to show the prominence of the shipping lane known as Donitz's 'sea bridge' in these disasters, with the Wilhelm Gustloff being one of these.

from http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/wilhelmgustloff.aspx

Morlar

The context and background to the peacetime cruises is outlined here :

http://www.feldgrau.com/KdF.html

The NS Gemeinschaft Kraft durch Freude, the National Socialist Organization Strength through Joy, was a subset of the Deutsche Arbeitsfront, the national German labor organization. All members of the DAF were also members of the KdF, and as basically any worker was a part of the DAF, so too were they in the Kraft durch Freude. The KdF was essentially designed for the purpose of providing organized leisure for the German work force. Interestingly enough, the DAF calculated that the work year contained 8,760 hours of which only 2,100 were spent working, 2,920 hours spent sleeping, leaving 3,740 hours of free time. Thus the driving concept behind the KdF was organized "relaxation for the collection of strenght for more work." The KdF strived to achieve this goal of organized leisure by providing activities such as trips, cruises, concerts, and cultural activities for German workers. These events were specifically directed towards the working class, and it was through the KdF that the NSDAP hoped to bring to the "common man" the pleasures once reserved only for the rich. By opening the door for the working class to easily and affordably take part in such activities, it was believed that the labor force could be lulled into being more flexible and productive.

There were many aspects of the German KdF program, including wildly popular and easily affordable international cruises provided by an extensive fleet of KdF liners and smaller waterway pleasure vessels. Trips were organized to the coasts of Norway, Spain, and Italy, as well as destinations on the Baltic Sea, and the German and Danish coasts. The KdF also sponsored and organized a wide variety of other activities, inlcuding retreats, day trips, tours, concerts, theater and opera performances, art exhibits, and other cultural and historical displays and events, all of which were supposedly designed to aid the "average" German enjoy their free time more. It was hoped that this would help in creating a healthier, more educated and more productive workforce.

Another aspect of the KdF organization was the provision for workers to have a right to vacation and paid holidays, a concept totally unique to the period in nearly all nations of the world. Even hourly and temporary workers were extended these sorts of concessions. Another major aspect of the KdF was the attempt to make the automobile a reality for as many Germans as possible. To this end, the world famous Volkswagon was created and and an extenisve system was setup to allow nearly anyone to purchase and own one. The Volkswagon (The Peoples Car) was extensively used by the German Wehrmacht in a military role also - the military versions of the VW are often compared not entirely without basis to the American Jeep.

This might also prove a useful introduction to the DAF :

http://www.feldgrau.com/daf.html

In 1933 ALL German labour and trades unions were amalgamated into one union (Deutsche Arbeits front). Membership of the DAF was compulsory (if you worked in an job/field it covered). Membership of the DAF tradeunion did not denote nsdap party membership.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This table illustrates the worst maritime disasters (excluding war ships). ...

Those figures for the Gustloff are among the lowest I have ever seen.

Unlike other fatalities during WW2 it is not illegal to downsize the statistics of German civilian dead.

Here are less jpeg-ey, more substantive estimates :

http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html

According to the ships own records, the list of passengers on the 30th included 918 Naval officers and men, 173 crew, 373 members of the Woman's Naval Auxiliary units, 162 wounded, and 4,424 refugees, for an official total of 6,050 people. This is according to the official list though, and doesn't take into account the many hundreds of other people that one way or another, were able to make their way onto the seemingly safe decks of the Gustloff. In fact, new research has now shown that the total number of people on the Gustloff at the time it was sunk was actually 10,582! Newly published research by Heinz Schon has set the number of people on the Gustloff as follows: 8,956 refugees, 918 officers NCOs and men of the 2.Unterseeboot-Lehrdivision, 373 female naval auxiliary helpers, 173 naval armed forces auxiliaries, and 162 heavily wounded soldiers, for a total of 10,582 people on board on January 30th.

Also context to the evacuation as perviously referenced :

At the end of the War, the operation proved to be a huge success, in light of the crushing and total defeat of Germany, in so far that over 2,000,000 people were rescued from areas of the Soviet advance. Had these 2,000,000 refugees not been rescued, as has been well documented elsewhere (As in the volumes "Documents on the Expulsion of the Germans from Eastern-Central-Europe), the plight of many of the refugees was likely to have been grim. Out of the total number rescued, about 25,000 to 30,000 lives were lost, the majority with the sinking of the Gustloff and the Goya with a combined total of over 15,000 deaths. Considering the number of people transported and the conditions and time of the transport (January - May, 1945), the number of lives lost versus the number rescued remains to this day a stark reminder of the size, scope and determination of the massive German sea rescue.

jonniebgood1

The description of the KDF cruises for ordinary workers sounds very socialist in outlook which is surprising. I found the link for the Nazi propaganda on same site as table already linked above:

Budget-priced cruises were provided to German war workers, but the cost included having to sit through Nazi propaganda lectures.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/wilhelmgustloff.aspx

This site also has alot of detail on the attack by the Russian submarine.

jonniebgood1

Some months after the Gustloff sinking the MV Goya was also hit by a Russian sub. It seems it is the 2nd highest casualties from maritime history.

In 1945, the Goya was used as both an evacuation ship and Wehrmacht troop transport, moving them from the eastern Baltic to the west. Contrary to popular mythology, the Goya was not a hospital ship while operating during Operation Hannibal. On April 16, 1945, the Goya was sailing from the Hel Peninsula, across the Baltic Sea to western Germany, overloaded with German troops and civilians fleeing from the Red Army, including 200 men of the 25th Panzer Regiment.

183 survived out of almost 7,000 on board.

jonniebgood1

This book passes reference to the Gustloff and Goya ships. The book is the personal account by a man whos family fled the area in 1945 as the Russians advanced. They used the same route as these ships had been using. His account is also interesting in that his family was pushed into evacuation by the SA (they owned a trawler which was to be used by others).

http://books.google.ie/books?id=CUJlmceHZCwC&pg=PA22&dq=Gustloff+ship&hl=en&ei=Ug8TTqr8OtGJhQfh9bTmDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gustloff%20ship&f=false

Snickers Man

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The description of the KDF cruises for ordinary workers sounds very socialist in outlook which is surprising.

Why should it be surprising?

Remember that NAZI is an acronym for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Worker's Party).

The Nazis had a comprehensive program of state-funded welfare initiatives of which Strength through Joy was just one. Their appeal was to the ordinary German worker who was exploited by the faceless, avaricious, parasites of global capitalism, who were of course all Jewish. (I'm giving you a paraphrase here of Nazi thinking, not my own)

So of course they pushed the benefits of state largesse to the ordinary German. Communism, as practised in Russia and promoted in Germany was largely a perversion of the ideology which sought to enrich the ordinary German. And of course, it was directed by Jews such as Karl Marx and Rosa Luxemburg in Germany and Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev inter alia in Russia.

Many of the intellegentsia, such as it was, among the SA who were eliminated in the Night of the Long Knives in 1934, men such as Gregor Strasser, emphasised the Socialism rather than Nationalism of the NAZI party.

If you can stomach some awful self righteous American Neoconservatism, there is a book called Liberal Fascism written by a character called Jonah Goldberg which points up the similarities between socialism and fascism both in Europe and America in the 20th century. And how they had common roots.

Writing for today's audience, he is clearly in the camp that tries to smear any sort of social democracy, such as that favoured by the left wing of the American Democratic Party with the charge that it is the first step on the road to Fascism. But with that caveat, it gives an interesting reappraisal of what the appeal of the Nazis in Germany, and indeed the Fascists in Italy, who had no problem with Jews until they got into bed with Hitler nearly 20 years AFTER Mussolini came to power, held for people between the wars.

The Scientician

jonniebgood1's chart raises the question as to why the Titanic gets so much more attention than pretty much any other maritime disaster, including ones like the Gustloff that were much bigger disasters in terms of loss of human life.

FWIW, Gunther Grass's book Crabwalk deals with the sinking of the Gustloff.

Tabnabs

To put some context on the deaths of civilians at sea by enemy activity during WW2, in the Atlantic alone the British lost 30,000 seafarers, the Norwegian's 3,700 and the Canadian's 1,600. Remember, this was just in the Atlantic. Even Irish seafarers were killed by German U Boats and aircraft as outlined in the excellent book The Long Watch.