Urban V Rural

Mahatma coat

Lets debate the relative merits of the Urban or Rural Stronghold

First off, I am firmly entrenched in the rural option

1) I live in rural Ireland
2) Its an easily defensible position
3) We have a relativley small population, so even if Mass infection occurs it wont take too long to contain
4) We have Food
5) We have loads of machinery
6) we have solid fortifications that have stood for nearly 1000 years
7) We have access to resoursces
8) Fresh water
9) Ease of escape via the Sea should the SHTF
10) No Townies:D

so why would I give all that up to go into an urban setting?
What possible advantages are there to remaining in the decaying ruins of a City?

ScumLord

Urban areas are only possible thanks to human organisation systems. You can't survive for long inside them once every things not being organised and maintained properly.

Once society crumbles the only people that will survive are smaller more self-sufficient communities.

It will be much harder for the virus to spread in the Irish countryside. Poor public transport options mean people won't be forced into close proximity just to get to work every morning. There will undoubtedly be people that work in the cities bringing the virus into small towns but Irelands terrible building laws that allowed so much one off housing means people will be able to keep their distance and avoid infection. There's also so many single houses scattered all over the place that it helps with their odds of avoiding scavengers.

SmileyPaul

basically there's no pro to come into the urban :P
hell, I'm not gonna be stayin in the urban when **** hits the fan! I;m gonna hole up for 2/3 weeks and then make my getawy :P

Grizzly 45

It would be pointless of a townie moving out to the country or a culchie moving into a city,if this goes to pot.:) How long would you last out in the boonies trying to light a fire and hunt your dinner,if the only hunting you have ever done is on O Connell st for bargins and the only fire you are used to is turning up the heat switch?? Not to mind apart from the Z's you will be in direct competition with hundreds of others who fled the city and might have less of a skillset than you.
However if you know your streets,alys,sewers,buildings and all the urban terrain,like where you could put up a roof garden,what building could be easily fortified,and escaped from,where there might be food caches,etc,and can keep a LOW profile with very small groups.You could possibly survive in the cities quite comfortably too..There were plenty of examples in history of people surviving in cities under occupation in wartime when their groups were being hunted down.

Best one was the socalled 3rd Reich Berlin Jews..Even when the Nazis removed 99% of the Jewish pouplation,Gobbels still could not confirm to Hitler that Berlin was "100% Jew free".It was a small group of a dozen people who were hunted and lived like animals.But they survived against a massive state organisation that was out to destroy them,who were very much alive too.So it should be possible against the undead as well.

ScumLord

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It would be pointless of a townie moving out to the country or a culchie moving into a city,if this goes to pot.:) How long would you last out in the boonies trying to light a fire and hunt your dinner,if the only hunting you have ever done is on O Connell st for bargins and the only fire you are used to is turning up the heat switch?? Not to mind apart from the Z's you will be in direct competition with hundreds of others who fled the city and might have less of a skillset than you.
However if you know your streets,alys,sewers,buildings and all the urban terrain,like where you could put up a roof garden,what building could be easily fortified,and escaped from,where there might be food caches,etc,and can keep a LOW profile with very small groups.You could possibly survive in the cities quite comfortably too..There were plenty of examples in history of people surviving in cities under occupation in wartime when their groups were being hunted down.

The problem is there will be no food, or any other supplies left in the cities. From experience we can tell that shop shelves will be emptied. There's 1 million people in Dublin, most food will be gone in a week, with no shops being resupplied that's the end of food in the city and no way to get more.

A lot of medicine needs to be refrigerated so even medicine won't last in the city.

We can also expect buildings to break down without maintenance.

Of course it won't be safe for the townies to head out into the country, they simply won't be welcome, the country towns will have a hard enough time feeding their own, they won't take kindly to possibly infected townies showing up.

City folk will be doing very well to survive.

krissovo

Grizzly has it spot on IMO.

History has proved that people survive despite appalling conditions and adversity be it in the country or in cities. Both have positive elements and both have negatives but it depends on the person which would provide the best advantages and only each person will know.

There will always be food in the cities after shops are cleared then homes will be scavenged, people have at least two weeks of food in their cupboards be it tins or packaged food like pasta that are long life. Water in the cities should be easy to source and easy to rig up rain water catching systems using the roof and guttering.

Food and water in rural settings is a bit more of a challenge if anything unless you have mini farm in the back garden you have to travel further to source it leaving you more exposed so without local knowledge you could find yourself very hungry in no time.

Grizzly 45

QUOTE=ScumLord;72642222]The problem is there will be no food, or any other supplies left in the cities[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily true either..OK,you wont be going shopping anymore in Tescos,or might be..As we can only surmise that XY or Z might happen.
but if you are a clever bear,you will already be scouting around your urban area for where things are that are edible?Like where is a roost of feral piegons?What deserted building lots that are overgrown have things in them that are edible..Like nettles[good sub for spinach and a very useful plant in general] dandelion,blackberrys[in season] etc etc.If it goes long term,you can plant and grow wild gardens.IOW look beyond the normal.

Supplies,depends on what you mean..Be surprised what people carry off what they think might be "useful" in a crisis.Watch any actual footage of riots or disasters in the 1st world..People are running off with flatscrren tV sets or Hifi equipment!!!:rolleyes:But leave things of value like food medicines,or other equipment behind.Dont think on the daythat everyone will grab the right stuff and head to the hills.It will be total chaos and panic.

. From experience we can tell that shop shelves will be emptied. There's 1 million people in Dublin, most food will be gone in a week, with no shops being resupplied that's the end of food in the city and no way to get more.

Very true,but I think alot of that one million in Dublin city centre area,not including the greater Dublin area[where most of the pouplation lives] Will be converted to Z's or dead.Again,look to places like Sarajevo in the 90s.True food was in very short supply,but people did build and keep gardens and animals in an urban situation.Somthing that is a medium to long term proposition.Of course knowing this might happen ..Wouldnt it be prudent to have at least a few months worth of non perishable grub in your abode when it is easy to get...Like now?:)
A lot of medicine needs to be refrigerated so even medicine won't last in the city.

True,but unless you suffer from somthing that needs constant medication[like diabetes]or whatever..Wouldnt it be wise to stock up on it as much as possible?
And for your science/chemist types...Welcome to your new found riches and security in the post Z world:D.You will be well protected and welcome in any community where you can produce ersatz drugs like aspirin,morphine,ether,Insulin,gunpowder[nitro and black],explosive compounds,tri ersified diesel and motor oils,and a host of other chemicals and compounds.

We can also expect buildings to break down without maintenance.

In about fourty or fifty years:D Maybe less with some of the POS that the Celtic tiger threw up.By and large buildings unless they are structurally damaged or open to the elements will last along time.

Of course it won't be safe for the townies to head out into the country, they simply won't be welcome, the country towns will have a hard enough time feeding their own, they won't take kindly to possibly infected townies showing up

Be death for them,I doubt very much that even smaller towns could support their own or pull as communities.However I do see a big problem with urban brigands pilliaging the country and smaller towns.It wouldnt take much for say a criminal gang, or terrorist group..they havent gone away either you know!If enough of their members survive to dig up and kit up with their firepower,and start getting the rest of the sheeple together by offering them leadership and security[after all they do have guns and know how to use them,more or less].There will be plenty of vechicles around for awhile and once they have sucked an area dry they will be on the move to the next morsels.So unless your town is well defended ,has a good well disiplined and armed defensive force.It might be overrun by sheer weight of numbers of sheeple led by armed scobes.

Unless your town is some place like the town in the Jericho TV seris[,isolated and pretty well tooled up].A bunch of sporting shotguns and pitchforks are not going to cut it against human wave tactics.:(

City folk will be doing very well to survive

.
Unless they are smart,or until some sort of power emerges that melds them into a super gang /army,then they will a serious problem as well as Z's:(

ScumLord

krissovo wrote: »

There will always be food in the cities after shops are cleared then homes will be scavenged, people have at least two weeks of food in their cupboards be it tins or packaged food like pasta that are long life. Water in the cities should be easy to source and easy to rig up rain water catching systems using the roof and guttering.

How long will tinned food last if it's the main source of food? We use tinned and dried food as a side order with our dinners. You may need 2 or 3 tins a day as opposed to using that many a week in normal life.

I'm not sold on this idea that you'll be able to find plenty of food in a ruined city for any length of time. It will run out fast, a city is a living thing in it's own right, without the organisation of people they will fall apart in a big way.

Sewage being the other main problem making them unlivable.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Like where is a roost of feral piegons?

Pigeon and other wild animals won't stick around one the easy access food is gone.

What deserted building lots that are overgrown have things in them that are edible..Like nettles[good sub for spinach and a very useful plant in general] dandelion,blackberrys[in season] etc etc.If it goes long term,you can plant and grow wild gardens.IOW look beyond the normal.

Nettles and the like would work, I didn't know ye got blackberries in the city. You can make a garden in the city but size will go against you, most inner city gardens I've seen couldn't feed any for more than a week or two at particular times of year.

It can be done but it's going to be extremely hard going.

Supplies,depends on what you mean..Be surprised what people carry off what they think might be "useful" in a crisis.Watch any actual footage of riots or disasters in the 1st world..People are running off with flatscrren tV sets or Hifi equipment!!!:rolleyes:But leave things of value like food medicines,or other equipment behind.Dont think on the daythat everyone will grab the right stuff and head to the hills.It will be total chaos and panic.

True, but they'll probably step on the food machines to get to the teles.

Be death for them,I doubt very much that even smaller towns could support their own or pull as communities.However I do see a big problem with urban brigands pilliaging the country and smaller towns.

Well I can only speak for my own town but I'd say it's a similar story across the country. Full of farmers, even the younger generation that lost their job are giving farming a go to make a bit of spare cash, there's no problem growing food in the Irish countryside, with some intelligent use of grow tunnels that grow period and range of food grown could be extended. In fact if we used inner city vertical garden techniques we could squeeze more growing into smaller spaces for easier protection.

Most farmers are legally allowed to carry a firearm and would love nothing more than to shot some city folk on their land. The laws currently protect the scum, without those laws protecting them they wouldn't last long.

Also in my town mechanics, a doctor, vet, engineers... Just about every useful trade is here.

It might be overrun by sheer weight of numbers of sheeple led by armed scobes.

That's a danger, there will be a civil war.


I really think the lack of food will be a bigger issue than the zombies at first. I think that is what will kill the most people.

Grizzly 45

ScumLord wrote: »

How long will tinned food last if it's the main source of food? We use tinned and dried food as a side order with our dinners. You may need 2 or 3 tins a day as opposed to using that many a week in normal life.

We are ALL going to get a lot thinner and healthier thats for sure..
,and not a real biggie either.By and large we are all overweight fat Bstds anyway according to the health Hitlers out there.So already you are carrying a good supply of energy on your body already.I'd say well be down to maybe a square every two days..Opening a can will be like the Sunday roast nowadays.

I'm not sold on this idea that you'll be able to find plenty of food in a ruined city for any length of time. It will run out fast, a city is a living thing in it's own right, without the organisation of people they will fall apart in a big way.

It is ,but remember,there wont be many people left.

Sewage being the other main problem making them unlivable.

Dig a hole in the backyard,stick an outhouse over it.worked for generations.:D But it is true,if in major areas the electric pumps that move it fail it will be messy.But again,you wont have a million people flushing the toilets every day either.

Pigeon and other wild animals won't stick around one the easy access food is gone.

As they are scavangers,they will hang around alot longer than humanity.They are well adopted to eat stuff months after we are gone form the cities.In actuality,as the cities decline wild game moves back IN!
The ghost towns around Chernobyl are full of game .deer,boar,foxes ,etc.
Its also a good study to see how man made structures stand up to non maintence and weather.Still pretty good after 25 years .

Nettles and the like would work, I didn't know ye got blackberries in the city. You can make a garden in the city but size will go against you, most inner city gardens I've seen couldn't feed any for more than a week or two at particular times of year.

Find deserted lots,gardens etc,that have briars growing on them,abit of cultivation,gives you loads of fruit.Even some older gardens have apple trees growing in them.Again the size,you need to bone up on techniques that are non labour intensive,high production and are cammoflaged as well.So no big plots,but little and many small spaces.

It can be done but it's going to be extremely hard going.

Nothing will be easy on this one.


[

QUOTE]
Well I can only speak for my own town but I'd say it's a similar story across the country. Full of farmers, even the younger generation that lost their job are giving farming a go to make a bit of spare cash, there's no problem growing food in the Irish countryside, with some intelligent use of grow tunnels that grow period and range of food grown could be extended. In fact if we used inner city vertical garden techniques we could squeeze more growing into smaller spaces for easier protection.
Most farmers are legally allowed to carry a firearm and would love nothing more than to shot some city folk on their land. The laws currently protect the scum, without those laws protecting them they wouldn't last long.

Now lets put this into context..Farmers are by and large the most biggest armed part of Irish society.The gun of choice here is by and large a single shot 12GA or 12GA double barrel. Thats either ONE or TWO shots.Fine for having a flake at an oul pheasent or fox.USELESS in a firefight. True,there are some deer and target rifles and.22 rifles on farms.BUT you need to know how to operate them,and hunting is a different story to being in a firefight!! Ok,say a gang of 12 approach farmer Giles,and tel him that they are taking his food.He might drop one or two,but that it.Now somone has his gun,farm ,food and whatever. Even if somone eho knows how to use a single shot.22 and has the patience.They can step back and peck away at somone with a 12 ga,until they wound or kill them,simply because they are hitting outside the shotguns range.

Now how is Farmer Giles going to pull sentry duty at night,tend the farm and animals,fix whatever needs fixing,cook dinner etc all by himself??Unless he has family and more than one gun and a good plan,he will be overrun by the first gang of urban scummers down his lane.As happens nowadays quite abit to old farmers living by themselves.:(
Dont forget,I think the gardai and army wont be around much after 24/48 hours..They will be off defending their own fammlies and homes.Cant blame them either..you were issued a gun,why should you defend some Govt that will proably have caused this first off??

So hate to say it the scum will have no qualms about being open brazen andlawless.They will be able to kill with impunity and proably well capable of taking on towns that are defended somwhat by the local yokels with their hunting guns.Unless they are very lucky yokels and have somone who has extensive military skills or is special forces and knows about small unit tactics and gureilla war.

Also in my town mechanics, a doctor, vet, engineers... Just about every useful trade is here.

and also makes it a very big juicy target for what I'mj describing..

That's a danger, there will be a civil war.

Brigandage would be better,civil war is more a political thing.

I really think the lack of food will be a bigger issue than the zombies at first. I think that is what will kill the most people

.

It certainly WILL kill the unprepared or unknowing.But that will leave plenty for us then!!:D.

ScumLord

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok,say a gang of 12 approach farmer Giles,and tel him that they are taking his food.He might drop one or two,but that it.

If anyone see's tone of their mates get shot in front of them their going to run. Only a trained soldier will be any good in a firefight, the rest of us will panic and run once we hear a gunshot.

Now how is Farmer Giles going to pull sentry duty at night,

Dog

tend the farm and animals,fix whatever needs fixing,cook dinner etc all by himself??

Wife.


I expect the farmers to pool their resources within the extended family. So they won't be alone.

Micky Dolenz

For me it's simple. More people = more zeds = less chance of survival. I will be avoiding large urban areas at all cost.

silverharp

if you had a large enough group how about some of the walled parks in Dublin , Marley park for instance, or even the phoenix Park, the Zoo would make a good "fortress" against the Z's and once the park had been cleared you'd have a ready made farm.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=ScumLord;72667235]If anyone see's tone of their mates get shot in front of them their going to run. Only a trained soldier will be any good in a firefight, the rest of us will panic and run once we hear a gunshot.

Err,if they are desperate and hungry..I doubt it ,especially if they are packing too.Do NOT discount that.Neither is Farmer Brown a trained soilder..Otherwise he wouldnt be confronting overwhelming odds out in his tater patch with an impliment totally unsuited to the job!

Dog

Unless trained as a gaurd/security dog.Not a average mutt that yapps at every passing shadow,it will be useless and easily dealt with.Professional gaurd dog handlers NEVER leave their dogs out alone by themselves.

Wife.

To do all that and more...shes going to be one strapping sturdy Gal,is all I can say.:)

I expect the farmers to pool their resources within the extended family. So they won't be alone.

How do you mean extended family???This could open up an intresting new can of worms..Are you talking about those who live on the farm and actually work?Or do you mean a bunch of inlaws/family who moved up to the city,and sniffed and sneered at their Culchie cousins with **** on their wellies?? How are you going to feel if that lot survived and pitched up on your farm door with their asses hanging out of their pants,carrying nothing?Their fat kids yarking that there is no TV or Xbox to play with,and princess teen daughter bitching" that loike theres no reception for my phone loike OMG!!" Would YOU entrust a bunch of shiftless wasters to pull their weight??After all they were the ones laughing their asses off at you preparing for Z day,and now they are here looking for a handout??
Personally,I'd be staking them out for Z bait..
This has been a classic dillemma since the Cold war..Who do you let in to the bunker,retreat or whatever??
Discuss.:pac:

13spanner

It's pretty obvious.
Town = more people = more Zombies.
Rural = less people = less zombies.
Easier to get fresh water in the countryside.
Better view of surroundings on hills than in highrise cities etc.
Tractors + machinery are practically made for zombie killing
RURAL ALL THE WAY