Odds , Sods and Ascendency - The Forgotten Irish and where they went next.

CDfm

Snickersman came up with a very good point. And I had come across Tom Casement , brother of Roger, and did not know where to put him.

Snickers Man wrote: »

Another interesting but largely forgotten "Irish" woman was Charlotte Despard, nee French. She was born in Kent into an Anglo-Irish family whose family seat was in Frenchpark Co Roscommon.

Her brother Sir John French was a pillar of the military establishment and became famous as the Commander in Chief of the British Expeditionary Force,the "Contemptible Little Army" that was sent to France in 1914 at the outbreak of the First World War and was largely destroyed before Christmas.

Charlotte meanwhile, after being widowed in her mid 40s became involved in charity work in London, an experience which radicalised her and caused her to become involved in Labour, suffragette and later Sinn Fein politics.

Moving to Ireland at the end of First World War she became involved in Cumann na mBan and various prisoners' dependents support activities. She opposed the Treaty and was imprisoned briefly during the Civil War.

Which of the two French siblings was the greater Irish person? The loyal military servant of the empire or the radical revolutionary who fought to undermine it?

No. 91 NAI DE 2/526

Art O'Brien to Eamon de Valera (Dublin)
(No. L-25-P)

London, 4 June 1921

Imperial Conference. I have been intending for some days past to write to you on the subject of Smuts and the Imperial Conference. Smuts is due here next Saturday.
Tom Casement (a brother of Roger) is a very intimate friend of Smuts and is in continual correspondence with him. It would be possible therefore for him to introduce anyone in a quiet friendly way to Smuts.
I think it might have some considerable value if I could meet Smuts in this way soon after his arrival and have a quiet talk with him. If you agree in this I would suggest that you send for Tom Casement and ask him to come over here for that purpose. I believe he is already considering coming over to see Smuts, and I think it would be in every way advisable that we should make use of his services. I know Tom Casement, he is a good genuine type and on the whole fairly discreet, but it would be advisable for you to impress upon him that he should treat his mission as absolutely confidential. Another thing is I think you should ask him to stay here as long as I think there is need of his services, and as I know he is not blessed with much of this world's wealth I would suggest you inform him that we will meet all his expenses.
My line of action with regard to other members of the Conference would be guided by the result of my activities in the case of Smuts.
The above suggestions may possibly cut across plans which you have in mind. I submit them for your consideration, but if you adopt them I suggest that Tom Casement come across as soon as possible. He is living with John ffrench (Lord ffrench's brother) at Castleffrench, near Ballinasloe. It is possible he may have left there before this reaches you, and will be in Dublin, in which case he will probably be staying with the Hon Margaret ffrench, 35 Waterloo Place where a note could be sent for him, or, he will probably be calling on Dermot Coffey to whom a suitable message could be sent.

ART O'BRIAIN

Very little biographical detail on Tom Casement

When 13, he went to sea as apprentice in a sailing ship trading with Australia •1, became an officer, then left the sea., having lost his officer's papers. •2

Stayed with Dr. Brabazon CASEMENT 1888 but was "very rightly kicked out for discourtesy to his wife". •3

He wrote on 10th May 1888 to his great-uncle John CASEMENT asking him for £50 to £100 to finance a trip to the Queensland gold fields.

Inspector, Metropolitan Board of Works, Melbourne, in 1895., earning £2.10/week, living with his brother Charles and his family. •2

In 1892, Tom CASEMENT married his brother's sister-in-law Blanche May BALHARRY. The marriage was kept secret and Blanche never went to church again because she felt she was living in sin. (Her grandfather, Charles James PERRY was married to the widow of Tom's uncle, Hugh CASEMENT Jnr in 1871).

Tom served in the Boer War and was said to be the "tallest man in the Victorian regiment". He never returned to Australia.

Prospecting for mercury at Zoutpansberg, Transvaal, by 1905 Feb. Inspector of mines at Barberton, Transvaal •1 Member of "the famous Rand Club, the most exclusive club in South Africa" and rode his horse up the club's staircase for a bet. •1 Strove to abolish Chinese slave labour in S. Africa. •4 Attempted to farm (by 1908 Dec.) and run a mountaineers' hostel (by 1910 Jan •5) at Rydal Mount, Witsieshoek, Harrismith, Orange Free State. In the first party to climb Cathkin Peak •6 in Drakensbergs 1912 •7

By Feb 1912, Tom had married again in South Africa. Kate AKEMAN ('Katje'), painter , from a West Country family which played an important part in Natal politics H. She was b. 1878-79, d. Basingstoke, Hampshire (Hants.), 1970 Sep. 25 (crem. Aldershot, Hants., Oct. 2). She is thought to have left him during or soon after the 1st war; worked in Dubrovnik in the 1930s [source- Bénézit]. Katje is the Kate CASEMENT who sent letters to Kathleen VAUGHAN née CASEMENT in Oct 1966 and May 1967 from Park Prevett Hospital, Basingstoke, Hampshire (Hants.) Letters are in an envelope labelled "Aunt Kate Casement's last two letters" She wrote that she was hoping that Dr MacKay's son would continue his father's campaign to have Roger Casement's paper returned to Ireland.

Described by his brother Roddie as "an extraordinarily unbusinesslike human being".

Served during the 1st War as Capt. in German East Africa (Tanganyika) •1 Diamond prospector on the Vaal River •7. Returned to Ireland July 1920. Involved in building a bank in Tralee. He was instrumental in obtaining the aid of Jan Smuts as intermediary between the British Govenment and de Valera in 1921 •4

He helped found Irish coast life saving service •1 Denis Johnston based the character of George in "The Moon in the Yellow River" on Tom CASEMENT.,publ 1930.

Tom visited Bavaria to collect documents on his brother Roger David CASEMENT for the NLI. He was in Diessen on Lake Ammersee in the 1920s, visiting the son of Dr Curry, friend of his brother.

He drowned in canal, Dublin, ca 1939 Apr.

http://genealogy.metastudies.net/PS01/PS01_367.HTM

And there were lots of Casements

http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=10&p=surnames.casement

And, Patrick Pearse was half English and had a half brother who had a family and his father died in his brothers house in Birmingham.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I'm familiar with Frenchpark and I knew of the French family but I'd never heard of Charlotte Despard before. Interesting stuff.

CDfm

You had the Protestant ascensdancy

Book Launch – The Protestant Community in Sligo, 1914-49 by Padraig Deignan

July 14, 2010
in Book launches, General

Padraig Deignan’s new book is to be launched by the Deputy Mayor of Sligo, Cllr Tony McLoughlin on Friday, 30 July 2010 at 7.30 pm in Sligo City Hall
About The Book

This is a story of the lives of individuals both Protestant and Catholic as well as communities, groups and organisations. Read about the voting antics of the internationally infamous politician the wily John Jinks. The Protestants who fought for the I.R.A. in the War of Independence and the Civil War. The Nationalist sympathies of W.B. Yeats and the more extreme activities of Countess Markievicz on behalf of the cause of Irish freedom. The businessman George Williams who cooked the books when applying for British compensation. The story of the well known politician, landowner and military officer Bryan Cooper, who although a committed Unionist came to understand the aspirations of his fellow Catholic and Nationalist countrymen and publicly called for cooperation after his experiences in the First World War.
The efforts of Josslyn Gore-Booth and Arthur Jackson to bring industry to Sligo, encouraging new farming practices and establishing manufacturing industries in Sligo. The events which have defined Sligo in Irish history, such as the first election held under Proportional Representation in Ireland or Britain in January 1919 and the events surrounding its first use in the Sligo Borough Election and its results which began the success of the Sligo Ratepayers Association, an organisation which united Protestants, Catholics, Unionists and Nationalists. The setting up of the Sligo Chamber of Commerce by Protestant and some Catholic businessmen in January 1923 at the height of the Civil War in order to promote economic activity. The active involvement by Protestant landowners along with Protestant and Catholic merchants in the commercial activity of Sligo town and especially in the development and maintenance of Sligo port and in the construction of the railways in the county from the latter part of the nineteenth century to the mid twentieth century.

And you also had a catholic ascendancy which emerged

Associated Families

• O'Shea (Limerick)

Description

William Henry O'Shea (1840-1905) of Georges Street, Limerick, owned 875 acres in county Clare in the 1870s. He was the son of a Henry O'Shea, a Limerick solicitor and his wife Catherine Quinlan from county Tipperary. In the mid 19th century a Henry O'Shea held land in the parishes of Bruis, Clonpet and Shronell, barony of Clanwilliam, county Tipperary. Captain W.H. O'Shea was a Member of Parliament for county Clare in 1880. He was the husband of Kitty O'Shea of Parnell fame. In 1901 part of the lands of Rathbane North amounting to 56 acres were advertised for sale. These lands belonged to Edward A. O'Shea, William Henry O'Shea and George Wreford, Senior Official Receiver of the Court of Bankruptcy in England. The lands were held on a lease dated 4 July 1780 from William John Purdon to William O'Shea junior for the term of 999 years. Other houses and premises in Limerick city were advertised for sale in November 1901 and were held on a lease dated 1792 from Frances Russell to William O'Shea.

I did a thread on Captain Willie O'Shea and his children with Katherine O'Shea (Kitty) became assimilated into the British establishment.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056115564

CDfm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I'm familiar with Frenchpark and I knew of the French family but I'd never heard of Charlotte Despard before. Interesting stuff.

Do you have any other detail on them & Frenchpark ?

premierlass

CDfm wrote: »

Do you have any other detail on them & Frenchpark ?

NUIG's Landed Estates Database has Frenchpark. It's listed as French/ffrench under Estates.

Rev Arthur Hyde (the father of Douglas Hyde) was the rector of Frenchpark.

CDfm

Is that the same Douglas Hyde that got St Patricks day declared a national holiday.

Threw street parties before Bono

he was successful in making Irish a compulsory subject for matriculation into the new National University of Ireland. In this, Hyde proved an inspired campaigner and so strong was popular support that 100,000 attended a pro-Irish rally in Dublin.

they didnt tell us that in school

Mixed effortlessly like Bono

Hyde married Lucy Cometina Kurtz in Liverpool in October 1893. He signed his name in the registry book in Irish. Now he settled down in Frenchpark as a country gentleman. Here he went shooting and fishing with Lord de Freyne, the O’Conors of Cloonalis and the county gentry and partied with them in the evenings. He was hugely popular; he mixed effortlessly with quite different people and classes; and, though firm in his convictions, he was always courteous and never quarrelled with anybody. Utterly free of religious prejudice, he was an ecumenist before his time. He did not care very much which church he attended. His Abhráin diadha Chúige Connacht or Religious songs of Connacht (1906) is full of Catholic religious sentiment. As Seán Ó Lúing says: ‘He was the most Roman Catholic of Protestants, or put the other way around, the most Protestant of Roman Catholics’.

Was aware of his political impact - not unlike Bono

He was well aware of the impact on national politics of the Gaelic League. He wrote:

‘The Gaelic League grew up and became the spiritual father of Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin’s progeny were the Volunteers who forced the English to make the Treaty. The Dáil is the the child of the Volunteers, and thus it descends directly from the Gaelic League, whose traditions it inherits’.

But sometimes it was politically correct not to be seen in his company - a bit like Bono

He was given a state funeral, and a Church of Ireland service was held in St Patrick’s Cathedral. The President and cabinet, Catholic politicians, and people stood outside the Cathedral in meek obedience to a canon law of the Catholic Church that forbade Catholics to attend a non-Catholic religious service in any circumstances. His remains were then taken across Ireland by motorcade and buried in Frenchpark churchyard, Co. Roscommon, on 14 July.

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Douglas_Hyde3344120424

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I don't really know all that much about Frenchpark's history. I was informed as a child that it was named that because the French army camped there in 1798 but as I'm sure you realize, thats complete nonsense.

CDfm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I don't really know all that much about Frenchpark's history. I was informed as a child that it was named that because the French army camped there in 1798 but as I'm sure you realize, thats complete nonsense.

But Charlotte married a Frenchman and it would make you wonder what influence she may have had on a young Douglas Hyde and the likes of the Gore-Booth girls from Sligo.

8.36 Charlotte French, b. in 1844 in Ripple, Kent, England, d. 1939, m. French businessman Maximilian Carden Despard in 1870, and had no children. He was very wealthy and was one of the founders of the Hong Kong and Shanghai Bank. Charlotte was the suffragette and Sinn Féin member, Ireland’s oldest political movement who were Irish Republicans and worked for lasting peace and justice in Ireland with sustainable social and economic development. She remained highly critical of her brother throughout his career.
By the age of ten her father had died and her mother was committed to an insane asylum and she was sent to London to live with relatives. She expressed regret of her lack of education, although she attended a finishing school in London.



Charlotte Despard Pub, London, England


See the Charlotte Despard Pub website on Archway Road in London, England. A street in the Battersea district of London where she formerly lived and worked is now named Charlotte Despard Avenue in her honour. See another biography.

Women’s Sufferage and Charlotte’s Political Career







Charlotte was shocked by the poverty she saw in London and as a result developed radical political opinions. In 1870 she fell in love and married Max Despard, a Frenchman who shared her political beliefs.
In 1874 Charlotte's first novel, Chaste as Ice, Pure as Snow was published. During the next sixteen years Charlotte wrote ten novels. Most of these novels were romantic love stories but A Voice from the Dim Millions dealt with the problems of a poor young factory worker. Charlotte was unable to find a publisher for this novel.
When her husband died in 1890, Charlotte decided to dedicate the rest of her life to helping the poor. She left her luxurious house in Esher and moved to Wandsworth to live with the people she intended to assist. Charlotte joined the Social Democratic Federation and later the Independent Labour Party.
In 1894 Despard was elected as a Poor Law Guardian in Lambeth. Charlotte became friends with George Lansbury and for the next few years became involved in the campaign to reform the Poor Law system. Despard also got to know Margaret Bondfield, the trade union leader and Keir Hardie, the new leader of the Labour Party.
Despard became a member of the National Union of Women's Suffrage Societies (NUWSS). However, in 1906, frustrated by the NUWSS lack of success, Despard joined the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU). Despard was arrested and imprisoned for her WSPU activities.
Despard was very critical of the dictatorial way that Emmeline Pankhurst and Christabel Pankhurst led the WSPU. In October 1907, Despard, Teresa Billington Greig, Edith How Martyn and seventy other women attempted to make the WSPU a more democratic organisation.
When their efforts failed, the three women left the WSPU and formed the Women's Freedom League (WFL). This new organisation still took a militant approach but unlike the WSPU the Freedom League concentrated on using non-violent illegal methods.
Despard spent a great deal of time in Ireland and in 1908 she joined with Hanna Sheehy Skeffington and Margaret Cousins to form the Irish Women's Franchise League.
In 1909 Despard met Gandhi and was influenced by his theory of 'passive resistance'. As the leading figure of the WFL. Despard urged members not to pay taxes and to boycott the 1911 Census. Despard financially supported the locked-out workers during the labour dispute in Dublin in 1913. She also helped establish the Irish Workers' College in the city.
Despard, like most members of the Women's Freedom League, was a pacifist, and so when war was declared in 1914 she refused to become involved in the British Army's recruitment campaign. Ironically, her brother, General John French, was Chief of Staff of the British Army and commander of the British Expeditionary Force sent to Europe in August 1914. Her sister, Catherine Harley, was also a supporter of the war and served in the Scottish Women's Hospital in France. Despard and the Women's Freedom League disagreed with the decision of the NUWSS and WSPU to call off the women's suffrage campaign while the war was on. Despard argued that the British government was not doing enough to bring an end to the war and between 1914-1918 supported the campaign of the Women's Peace Council for a negotiated peace.
After the passing of the Qualification of Women Act in 1918, Charlotte Despard became the Labour Party candidate in Battersea in the post-war election. However, in the euphoria of Britain's victory, Despard's anti-war views were very unpopular and like all the other pacifist candidates, who stood in the election, she was defeated.
In 1920 Despard toured Ireland as a member of the Labour Party Commission of Inquiry. Together with Maud Gonne, she collected first-hand evidence of army and police atrocities in Cork and Kerry. The two women also formed the Women's Prisoners' Defence League to support republican prisoners.
Charlotte continued to be involved in politics after the war. In the 1920s Despard became involved in the Sinn Fein campaign for a united Ireland.
In 1930 Despard and Hanna Sheehy Skeffington made a tour of the Soviet Union. Impressed with what she saw she joined the Communist Party and became secretary of the Friends of Soviet Russia organization. Charlotte Despard died in Ireland in 1939.


http://www.frenchfamilyassoc.com/FFA/CHARTSWEB/IREFa.htm

jonniebgood1

Very interesting lady CD. Theres a contridiction in her support for Sinn Fein though:

Despard's anti-war views were very unpopular and like all the other pacifist candidates, who stood in the election, she was defeated...............

....

In the 1920s Despard became involved in the Sinn Fein campaign for a united Ireland.

What was her 'involved' role?

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Very interesting lady CD. Theres a contridiction in her support for Sinn Fein though:

What was her 'involved' role?

Snickersman found her first and I had never heard of her before.

These priveledged women found a place in the Labour Movement and in Communism and used the language of revolution and were very ultra left wing. Trotsky applied for asylum in Ireland around 1925 and WT refused him.

Simarillion

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I don't really know all that much about Frenchpark's history. I was informed as a child that it was named that because the French army camped there in 1798 but as I'm sure you realize, thats complete nonsense.

It's named after the French family who were the Barons de Freyne. They lived at there house Frenchpark which was outside the town of Frenchpark. It was knocked down by the Irish Land Commission in 1954.

On other Irish who are often forgotten, one of my favourites include:
Richard Lovell Edgeworth who invented the caterpillar track in 1770 allowing for the much later invention of the tank.
(he also had 20 children by the time he died)

Emme

CDfm wrote: »

Is that the same Douglas Hyde that got St Patricks day declared a national holiday.

Threw street parties before Bono

they didnt tell us that in school

Mixed effortlessly like Bono

Was aware of his political impact - not unlike Bono

But sometimes it was politically correct not to be seen in his company - a bit like Bono

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Douglas_Hyde3344120424

Are you telling us that Bono should be the next president?

CDfm

Emme wrote: »

Are you telling us that Bono should be the next president?

He is very well qualified and there is sufficient historical precident :pac:

Judgement Day

CDfm wrote: »

He is very well qualified and there is sufficient historical precident :pac:

Douglas Hyde probably paid his taxes in Ireland unlike Bono. :rolleyes:

Emme

Judgement Day wrote: »

Douglas Hyde probably paid his taxes in Ireland unlike Bono. :rolleyes:

Bono could make up for that by working for free if he got elected to the Park.