site insurance?

whyiotta

Just wondering all these sites that have insurance or say they have insurance how can we be so cure that they actually do because unlike other businesses they never display their insurance certs on site?

if someone was to have an accident and where to claim these sites are only contactable by mobile phone very easy to do a runner and be untracable too

Leftyflip

Next time you go to a site, ask for the certificate.
You'd be hard pressed to find a site that'd do what you're suggesting - they're too well known to even contemplate it.
Relax man all is in check!

Puding

Leftyflip wrote: »

Next time you go to a site, ask for the certificate.
You'd be hard pressed to find a site that'd do what you're suggesting - they're too well known to even contemplate it.
Relax man all is in check!

why would they not contemplate it? personally i think it is good that the community should ask for this type of thing

tbh it was one of the good things with regard to IAA affiliation, insurance certs had to be produced before affiliation

Leftyflip

Puding wrote: »

why would they not contemplate it? personally i think it is good that the community should ask for this type of thing

tbh it was one of the good things with regard to IAA affiliation, insurance certs had to be produced before affiliation

As do I, but what I meant was - could you really imagine a site owner doing a runner if someone hurt themselves on site? If you think that about your local site - why're you playing there, any IAA affiliated site will look after you properly.

Puding

maybe not do a runner but defiantly could cause trouble for the hobby , and if you think there are not site out there running without insurance i would think again

Leftyflip

Puding wrote: »

maybe not do a runner but defiantly could cause trouble for the hobby , and if you think there are not site out there running without insurance i would think again

Puding, I know well there's sites operating without insurance!

horgan_p

No site owner is under any obligation to show anything to anybody.
The player may change his mind on whether or not to play on that site.
The site owner should an undertaking that the site is insured.Having said that I've never seen that on any waiver I've ever seen or signed.
I'd love to see the site's company name and ideally company registration number on every waiver.At least then you know you're dealing with some kind of legal body.
In the end the only difference is who is paying your claim for your lost eye , ball, hand etc. its either the land owner or the company organising the games (and by extension their insurance company).That's my understanding of the situation .I am open to correction on this.



Having said that , I've also read , heard and spoken to plenty of morons who'll quite happily chase each other around a wood with aegs with no kind of organisation (or insurance) whatsoever.

Airsoft Reloded

If a site is operating without insurance and your injured then the claim moves onto the land owner so your always covered as horgan_p said.

That being said there are still a few out there not operating properly, no insurance, not registered with the cro or for vat e.t.c and even worse there are still a few people who organise illegal skirmishes (that is to say no permission from the land owner) but the ones with a .ie have to have some sort of official proof to get that and the busy ones wouldn't risk it because the insurance would be a small cost when looking at the potential losses.

Check for a .ie and ask around the regular skirmisher circles because the ones that aren't doing it properly are known, as are the ones who are doing it properly.

horgan_p wrote: »

No site owner is under any obligation to show anything to anybody.
The player may change his mind on whether or not to play on that site.
The site owner should an undertaking that the site is insured.Having said that I've never seen that on any waiver I've ever seen or signed.
I'd love to see the site's company name and ideally company registration number on every waiver.At least then you know you're dealing with some kind of legal body.
In the end the only difference is who is paying your claim for your lost eye , ball, hand etc. its either the land owner or the company organising the games (and by extension their insurance company).That's my understanding of the situation .I am open to correction on this.



Having said that , I've also read , heard and spoken to plenty of morons who'll quite happily chase each other around a wood with aegs with no kind of organisation (or insurance) whatsoever.

MerryDespot

There's a major difference there - if the site is uninsured, given the cost of claims in this country there's very little chance that the site owner would be a mark for recovery of any award made against him/her - or potentially one claim for an uninsured site owner would probably be enough to shut him/her down.

If the site is insured then at least the insurance company is there to provide cover under the policy - meaning that the owner won't end up paying the 10-15k that seems to be standard for most circuit court level injuries these days.

In this respect, cover matters. Site owners may not be obliged to provide evidence of insurance, but I would be slow to play a site which doesn't have cover. It's not that I'm out looking for a convenient pot hole to twist my ankle in (that's why sites should have waivers - though in reality the worth/strength of a waiver is debatable, I've seen them be disregarded by judges, particularly on the basis of new players where an arbitrary argument that 'consent was not informed', though related to other sports waivers other than airsoft), it's just that I'd rather know that if the worst happened there would be someone standing behind the site operator (i.e. an insurer).

Sure - you could go off and be a gob****e and go blazing around a wood with your mates, but that is full 100% fail, and if you do that and hurt yourself IMHO you deserve what's coming to you in the event of an injury.

horgan_p

As a rule be especially wary of sites that ONLY advertise through facebook , twitter or other social media.

Not saying they're all dodgy , just saying to be extra careful.

MerryDespot

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

If a site is operating without insurance and your injured then the claim moves onto the land owner so your always covered as horgan_p said.
.

Correction - you're covered if the property owner is insured. There'd need to be a policy there somewhere. What if the property owner is being as 'loose' with his cover as the site operator?

What's the problem with clarifying the situation on cover if asked? As Puding said above, best to stick to IAA affiliated sites - either that or get assurances that cover is in place before booking or playing. Don't just take the "ah sure it'll be grand" response - if you're not comfortable with the insurance situation on a site - go somewhere else. Same goes for if you have doubts about whether or not the site is operating legitimately.

MerryDespot

horgan_p wrote: »

As a rule be especially wary of sites that ONLY advertise through facebook , twitter or other social media.

Not saying they're all dodgy , just saying to be extra careful.

Couldn't agree more.

Airsoft Reloded

MerryDespot wrote: »

Correction - you're covered if the property owner is insured. There'd need to be a policy there somewhere. What if the property owner is being as 'loose' with his cover as the site operator?

Granted but either way someone has to pay be it personally or not and yes the person could declare bankruptcy but thats unlikely to happen with any of the main site operators that have been operating for years.

MerryDespot wrote: »

What's the problem with clarifying the situation on cover if asked? As Puding said above, best to stick to IAA affiliated sites - either that or get assurances that cover is in place before booking or playing. Don't just take the "ah sure it'll be grand" response - if you're not comfortable with the insurance situation on a site - go somewhere else. Same goes for if you have doubts about whether or not the site is operating legitimately.

First of all I didn't say there was a problem with it but now that you ask, you might not have it at hand or you might not want the person to see it incase they are potential competition or just some sap being a sap as saps do and you think you could spare yourself the headache of someone like this sap being there for the day nitpicking every little thing or a prick looking for a quick bit of cash. If someone asked me to see our cover I would assume he was planning to have an "accident" on site and sue so I would refuse hoping that would entire him to leave.

As for sticking with IAA affilaited sites sure there are a lot of great sites out there that are not affiliated (and the affiliats list is quite small) so why cut yourself off from those great sites in the name of paranoia or mistrust?

The first time I hurt myself playing airsoft was falling onto a rock because of a potholl in the road, I didn't ask about insurance or complain to the owner. I went to the hospital, got a cast on and went up the following week remembering where the hole was and pointed it out to the site owner who sorted it out.

Inari

Insurance is there to protect the operator, not to protect you. Liability and negligence are two key words in any claim. If you are hurt or injured, and it was not through any fault of your own, nor through any accepted risk, then you are entitled to compensation (the whole point of compensation is that you are no better/worse off i.e. the accident/incident never took place, effectively), regardless of whether or not an insurance policy is in place.

It is plain stupidity to not have insurance as a site. You are no less liable, and are just not protected. If something happens, you will have to pay for it yourself...and if you look at injuries board, you could be out an extremely substantial amount of money.

With regard to sites having to show insurance certificates, that is news to me. Most insurers (with the exception of car policies) have a pre-requisite that you do NOT show people your certificate, nor allude to the fact you're insured. Why? To reduce premeditated "accidents".

Trust your instincts, but rest assured that even if a site does not have insurance does not change the fact that in the event of an incident taking place that is a result of negligence, then you are still protected

ASI Casper

I've seen a couple of sites in the North that have a photocopy of their insurance certificate on display, and I'd say others probably do too but I just haven't noticed it.
It's in a sites best interests to have their insurance certificate up, along with first aid certificates and the like ( such as licenses to store pyros onsite in the North ).

One good point about the VCR Act / UKARA in the UK is that it's a legal requirement of the site to have third-party (public) liability insurance to be part of the UKARA scheme, so UKARA check it for you.
So sites in NI can be checked here: http://www.ukara.org.uk/node/4

MerryDespot

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

every little thing or a prick looking for a quick bit of cash. If someone asked me to see our cover I would assume he was planning to have an "accident" on site and sue so I would refuse hoping that would entire him to leave.

As mentioned below by Inari, the fact that someone has an accident does not mean that you (or by extension, your insurer) are liable. The claimant has to prove negligence in order to succeed. I my honest opinion if they're able to prove negligence against a site owner and suffer an injury, and the site is uninsured, that's double stupidity on the part of the site owner/operator (1. to be uninsured and 2. to be negligent in some way). In such case, tough shít.

Inari wrote: »

Insurance is there to protect the operator, not to protect you. Liability and negligence are two key words in any claim. If you are hurt or injured, and it was not through any fault of your own, nor through any accepted risk, then you are entitled to compensation

Absolutely Inari - couldn't agree more. This isn't about being covered so some little scrote can claim off you (thereby somehow providing him with a free cash injection off the back of your no doubt expensive premium), it's about protecting yourself from the inevitable scumbag who will come along and try to do you at some stage. You're missing the point entirely here. That's me looking at it from the perspective of a site operator.

From a players perspective I'd rather know the place was insured - just as much as there are no doubt players out there who'd have few qualms about taking a claim (though few I'd say, as I don't think airsofters are as much that way inclined as the gen pop) there are equally sites out there that don't exactly engender tremendous confidence in their safety or insurance arrangements. I've been to some - I haven't gone back.

To be clear, I've spent ten years doing defence work to defend against claims - mostly public liability of the sort that deals with the sorts of issues you could have on an airsoft site. I'm no friend of insurance claimant - I'm too cynical and I've seen too much bullshít over the years. Brian - I'm posting up here to give a bit of free guidance, not to have a go at you or any site owner. I'm also trying to forewarn people so that they stick to the more reputable sites - i.e., that they don't go and make the mistakes I did when I was starting out.

Anyways - happy bank holiday weekend fellow airsoft fiends - rant over.

Sam Fisher

This maybe useful.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68779924

whyiotta

i didnt realise i would case such a debate, as one person as stated already i have seen other businesses display their insurance certs, cro cert etc, just wondering its not done here in fact if you are a registered company by law you have to display your company registeration cert in a public place.

Airsoft reloaded you said that if someone asked to see your insurance cert you would refuse to show it that again is against the law, What have you to hide, don't be afraid to show it but you should be proud to boast that you actually have insurance. If somebody wnated to sue you the last thing they would do would announce to you oh can i see your insurance cert they will act totally normal and only when they fall down your stairs or kick in a door and twist their ankle then they will let you know about it and a nice letter show arrive shortly too, :mad:

Everybody thinks that the waiver passes all blame, they are not worth the paper its printed on all it is a piece of paper that makes a lot of people think "ah well sure i signed the waiver, nothing i can do", its the same as if you park your car in a private car park and you see the signs "cars parked at owners risk" eh not so if you have payed for secure parking you can sue for any damages to your causes while you have paided for your car to be securely parked. Trust me on this i know as a fact

I'm sure most sites ahve insurance you would be dumb not too all i ask is that you display it, if not on site why not even on your website such as insurance provided by ***** whatever insurance company.

I personally have got whiplash from a site because of their half barn doors left open you know who i'm talking about but personally i didnt sue not because it was my fault in fact if a health & saftey officer visited the site they would insisit that half door be left fully open but because i know that a insurance claim would possibly close the site and ruin the sport and i'm sure i'm not alone none of us want to distroy the sport we just want to have fun

Inari

As I previously mentioned, some insurance companies explicitly say to their clients NOT to display or allude to being insured, as people are less likely to claim when it affects the person directly, as opposed to going through an insurance company.

In airsoft, and most things, there is what is called accepted risk. Airsoft has the accepted risk of running around (tripping, falling, holes & hazards), getting shot (that lone BB doing damage etc), and more of the same. Waivers etc are part of the terms and conditions of insurance policies that show you are being responsible by informing your customers of the risks involved.

If an accident occurs, you have to hold the site operator responsible and prove negligence in order to make a successful claim. If they were not negligent, then it will normally fall under 'Accepted risk'.

Public Liability insurance is, as far as I am aware, required by law for any public access building/land, and is normally in place by the land owner. If something like a roof falls on top of you, then this is not your fault, nor is it down to the negligence of the site operator, and thus falls under the public liability insurance policy.

MerryDespot

Inari wrote: »

.
If an accident occurs, you have to hold the site operator responsible and prove negligence in order to make a successful claim. If they were not negligent, then it will normally fall under 'Accepted risk'.

And people have to take responsibility for their own actions. So, you injured yourself on a site then? Yeah? Aaaannnd where was the negligence? What's that kind sir, you were unable to prove any? Really? Well tough break there then my friend - insurance is not to hand you a lob of cash simply because you've been injured, despite what people seem to believe in this country. It is to provide cover in the event of an operative clause under the policy - such as negligence in the case of a public liability policy or clause under a master policy.

But - bottom line - people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Airsoft Reloded

whyiotta wrote: »

Airsoft reloaded you said that if someone asked to see your insurance cert you would refuse to show it that again is against the law, What have you to hide, don't be afraid to show it but you should be proud to boast that you actually have insurance. If somebody wnated to sue you the last thing they would do would announce to you oh can i see your insurance cert they will act totally normal and only when they fall down your stairs or kick in a door and twist their ankle then they will let you know about it and a nice letter show arrive shortly too, :mad:

Untill you have run a business and had people trying bogus claims on you I don't think you can speak definitively here. The main two things you have to think are, get the rent and protect the assets after that its all gravy.

Inari wrote: »

As I previously mentioned, some insurance companies explicitly say to their clients NOT to display or allude to being insured, as people are less likely to claim when it affects the person directly, as opposed to going through an insurance company.

Which is exactly what we have been told from day one, when someone takes the risk day to day, puts thier money and time into running a site and has a clue about any of it then I'll listen to how they think I should run mine.

IrishRatticus72

Having worked in the retail sector for 22 years, for some of the country's largest retailers, I can speak from experience regarding lawsuits from the public.
When under the employment of previous employers, we were always explicitly told to never discuss insurance liability with customers, and to instead direct them to the ombudsman for further information.
Trust me, having witnessed potential claimants setting up accidents, it does beggar belief the extent some knob ends will go to.

MerryDespot

I once went out to interview a farmer who'd had some guy who'd been painting one of his barns fall off and break a leg.

He asked me what I thought the claimant would get out of his claim - unfortunately the farmer was liable - so I told him. It was a lot of money.

The farmer just looked at me and said "next time I'll just get the shotgun, finish the guy off and bury him in a lime pit". There wasn't a glimmer of humour in the guys eyes.

Let's just say I was really careful when walking back to my car to make sure I didn't trip over anything....

IrishRatticus72

MerryDespot wrote: »

I once went out to interview a farmer who'd had some guy who'd been painting one of his barns fall off and break a leg.

He asked me what I thought the claimant would get out of his claim - unfortunately the farmer was liable - so I told him. It was a lot of money.

The farmer just looked at me and said "next time I'll just get the shotgun, finish the guy off and bury him in a lime pit". There wasn't a glimmer of humour in the guys eyes.

Let's just say I was really careful when walking back to my car to make sure I didn't trip over anything....

Pfff, well, what really can you say to that.
"take your hits" would take on a whole new meaning.........