Newbie Question

clear thinking

I've been a casual observer of cricket for a while (ok, 20 years, but never played).

I'm wondering if there are 14 or so Irish pro's why don't CI aim to up this and get 2 or 3 provincial sides into English county cricket?

The rugby experience has been poor for clubs but a move like this would drive crowds and likely also participation.

Any ideas? Is it being considered?

TrueDub

It's been mooted many times.

Lots of reasons why not, but essentially it boils down to two things:

1) Money

We don't have it. County cricket is not self-financing and relies on handouts generated by international cricket.

2) Will

Neither side really want it. With England able to poach our players at will we don't want a shop window opened, and the counties know that they can cherry-pick the best Irish players whenever they wish to.

clear thinking

TrueDub wrote: »

It's been mooted many times.

Lots of reasons why not, but essentially it boils down to two things:

1) Money

We don't have it. County cricket is not self-financing and relies on handouts generated by international cricket.

2) Will

Neither side really want it. With England able to poach our players at will we don't want a shop window opened, and the counties know that they can cherry-pick the best Irish players whenever they wish to.

Ignoring point 1 ....

Why would we have an issue with giving players a path to the prosessional game especially if it happens anyway. At least this way it would give the chance to develop enough players, even if they get poached, to get to test standard - we'd probably need 40-50 players playing county i guess? Will that happen with the current club only set up?

TrueDub

clear thinking wrote: »

Ignoring point 1 ....

You can't. Simple as that. Nothing else will happen without a money plan. Everything else is pie in the sky until we can work out a way to make something self-financing.

clear thinking

TrueDub wrote: »

You can't. Simple as that. Nothing else will happen without a money plan. Everything else is pie in the sky until we can work out a way to make something self-financing.

Ah but a money plan can be addressed separately. There's plenty of models out there that can be a basis for a plan.

crackit

Go on then. We're all dying to hear it. Let's hear all about this money plan

As for

Why would we have an issue with giving players a path to the prosessional game especially if it happens anyway.

Why would Cricket Ireland have an issue with (thanks to your brilliant financial planning) financing a professional system here, and in doing so putting the whole infrastructure of the game as it stands at risk, and spending money on nurturing and developing players only to have them pinched by the ECB when they reach their prime? Is it that hard to figure out?

clear thinking

crackit wrote: »

Why would Cricket Ireland have an issue with (thanks to your brilliant financial planning) financing a professional system here, and in doing so putting the whole infrastructure of the game as it stands at risk, and spending money on nurturing and developing players only to have them pinched by the ECB when they reach their prime? Is it that hard to figure out?

Possibly to raise the standard and have a bit of depth? I agree it would be pointless to wreck existing structures, so an organic growth model could be used.

crackit wrote: »

Go on then. We're all dying to hear it. Let's hear all about this money plan

Given financial restrictions it would need to be progressive with milestones to aim at.

Goals: Improve standard, Keep young players here on low cost basis (scolarships), get a regular attending public. Aim to play county cricket by 2016. Double the number of resident pros by 2014 and have at least 45 by 2016, excluding scolarships.

1st step: improving the standard.
Starting off I'd set up 3 representative provincial teams that would initially play against the 18 english counties on a one off basis over three years, ie 6 matches a season, each county vists one province a year. The provinces would also play each other home and away, thus giving ten games at a better standard for the players.

2nd step. Get the public going & establish scolarships to keep the best young players here. A tie in with a few universities would keep the best young players local for a long enough time to benefit from them, even if they leave after at relatively low cost. Getting people to attend would not be dificult given the latent bsupport base in the country. International tickets could be tied in to provincial season tickets & club membership etc.

By improving the standard over the 5 year perion one or more of the provinces would be in a position to push for county cricket.

i could go on but im on lunch... more to follow

crackit

clear thinking wrote: »

Goals: Improve standard, Keep young players here on low cost basis (scolarships), get a regular attending public. Aim to play county cricket by 2016. Double the number of resident pros by 2014 and have at least 45 by 2016, excluding scolarships.

1st step: improving the standard.
Starting off I'd set up 3 representative provincial teams that would initially play against the 18 english counties on a one off basis over three years, ie 6 matches a season, each county vists one province a year. The provinces would also play each other home and away, thus giving ten games at a better standard for the players.

2nd step. Get the public going & establish scolarships to keep the best young players here. A tie in with a few universities would keep the best young players local for a long enough time to benefit from them, even if they leave after at relatively low cost. Getting people to attend would not be dificult given the latent bsupport base in the country. International tickets could be tied in to provincial season tickets & club membership etc.

By improving the standard over the 5 year perion one or more of the provinces would be in a position to push for county cricket.

i could go on but im on lunch... more to follow

For a start I'm pretty sure that Cricket Irelands goal is already to improve the standards of cricket in this country so there is nothing new in that.

Aim to play county cricket by 2016? As a full county? There is an absolute tonne of logistical stuff that would go with that even if was practically implementable which it is not. You think that 3 provinces playing full county cricket in 5 years is achievable? You're dreaming. In fact you're delusional.

Double the number of resident pros by 2014? Who is going to pay for that then? Again fairytale stuff that isn't even close to being practical.

1st step. 3 provincial teams. Fair enough. You know having a provincial team doesn't automatically improve the standard for a start? I'm presuming Munster, Leinster and Ulster. You do realise Munster would be garbage? Also I presume you realise there are already reprasentative North v South games played.

Are they playing one day cricket or, presumably if they want to enter a county structure, are they playing 4 day cricket? Who is paying the coaches, curator and other sundry staff that would be needed? Where are the teams playing out of? How are the players all getting off work for 6 x 4 day games (24 days) a summer? Is there to be no one day cricket? Add a few more days into the mix if there is. Then there are the home and away matches against each other. Time off work again is an issue. Who is funding the travel and accomdation? The masses of fans that would go to these games? I think not

Point 2. University tie ins. Not as easy to simply say abrekedabra and have those up and running but in essence a good idea. There are financial aspects to any linkup also. These universities would need to have a strong cricketing set up for there to be any benefit. Are there masses of universities that do? I don't know if there are so I'm genuinely asking. Do these universities have adequate coaching and facilities to bring about the improvment you're asking for?

Also keeping lads on scholarships doesn't mean better players. If that was the case then UCD would be in the champions league final every year. They offer full scholarships to their players at a very fine academic institution. It hasn't made them a great team and it hasn't stopped the best players from leaving either.

Getting people to attend would not be difficult? Are you for real? There were 4 people in Diceys to watch Ireland v England in the World Cup. If you can't get people to go to the pub and drink pints watching the tv for the biggest derby game Ireland have in cricket then you're not going to get them going to the stuff you're talking about. You think you could muster crowds to watch a provincial side play a county side (or another provincial side) for 30 days of summer? Not a hope. Did you ever go to the C&G games when we were in it. The full Irish team v county sides. Nobody in the place for games v Essex and Kent one year. Teams that boasted international players against our national team and you're talking a couple of hundred people at the matches.

Tying in international tickets to provincial tickets is akin to what the FAI have done with football tickets. You have to buy a, b and c to be eligble for x,y and z. It's ruined them. They are millions of euro in debt. People don't want to have to buy tickets to see s*it they aren't interested in just so they can go to internationals. You can't force people to be interested in provincial cricket.

It all looks lovely on paper. If all the stuff you wrote could be achieved then it would be great. It's not even close to being practical. It's Walter Mitty stuff to be honest. We could all write reams and reams of stuff to improve Irish cricket just like yours. Anyone can write a load of pie in the sky aims and goals. Logistically nothing you wrote is a runner. There isn't the finance or the interest for any of it for a start. Also, for this county cricket notion, you do realise there are plenty of countys in England much better placed than ourselves to step up to the full fold. Do you think merely asking the ECB for a game in their set up means we would get it even if we had teams that were moderately competitive (which would never happen)?

clear thinking

Just throwing out a few ideas, no need for the walter mitty stuff. If its not immediately achievable then what can be done should be done.

Anyway the summary is that there is no money and no will.

If your slam dunk answer there was twisted to the positive instead of negative you've got a few decent starting points. Just the wrong attitude.

No wonder the ICC weren't arsed dealing with minnow nations for their world cup.

crackit

Very predictable reply to be honest once all the realities you ignored were explained to you in detail. My answer isn't anything to do with being negative over positive. It's about living in reality. If Cricket Ireland every embarked on some crazy scheme (positive as it may be) for extremely rapid expansion of the game here it would end in disaster and that would only be negative.

You came on here asked a question. TrueDub gave you a very accurate and succinct answer. You proceeded to tell him to ignore his first point. He told you that you couldn't. Then you told him that finances were a seperate issue and could be addressed as such?

You continued to list a big pile of stuff that was pure fantasy and concluded by telling us you 'could go on' but had to go on lunch. The suggestion was that you had more problem solving ideas for us if only you had the time to impart them to us.

You'll have to forgive my reply but I don't appreciate being lectured on all these things that we can and should be doing when you ignore the most basic answers to your initial questions. It's also extremely unwarranted and unfair to summarise that there is 'no money and no will'. The board and Irish Cricket in general is full of good cricket people who have plenty of will. Just because we haven't got a big bucket of cash to start up loads of initiatives doesn't mean there is any lack of will in Irish cricket

clear thinking

crackit wrote: »

Very predictable reply to be honest once all the realities you ignored were explained to you in detail. My answer isn't anything to do with being negative over positive. It's about living in reality.

Fair enough, i've no problem being realistic, i'm not involved, just an keen observer, but would like to think some reasonable & practical steps that dont cost a fortune could see the game take off in this country.

crackit wrote: »

If Cricket Ireland every embarked on some crazy scheme (positive as it may be) for extremely rapid expansion of the game here it would end in disaster and that would only be negative.

Who said anything about rapid? Fully agree.

crackit wrote: »

You came on here asked a question. TrueDub gave you a very accurate and succinct answer. You proceeded to tell him to ignore his first point. He told you that you couldn't. Then you told him that finances were a seperate issue and could be addressed as such?

I ignored the first point initially because there is no point adressing point 1: Finance if point 2: Will is absent, if there is no will all the money in the world is useless, is that not obvious?

crackit wrote: »

You continued to list a big pile of stuff that was pure fantasy and concluded by telling us you 'could go on' but had to go on lunch. The suggestion was that you had more problem solving ideas for us if only you had the time to impart them to us.

You'll have to forgive my reply but I don't appreciate being lectured on all these things that we can and should be doing when you ignore the most basic answers to your initial questions.

I answered as much as needed to be & when asked to I pointed out a few low cost ways to get things going. My simple minded thought is that it may be possible to get 40 -50 decent standard, ultimately pro, players in the country (even if it took 10 years to get there), making test cricket possibility. Surely there is the desire for that???

As for lunch - too much info, sorry. But I have plenty more I can contribute if a reasoned debate evolves.

crackit wrote: »

It's also extremely unwarranted and unfair to summarise that there is 'no money and no will'. The board and Irish Cricket in general is full of good cricket people who have plenty of will.

In fairness Truedub brought up the no will thing, not me.

crackit wrote: »

Just because we haven't got a big bucket of cash to start up loads of initiatives doesn't mean there is any lack of will in Irish cricket.

clear thinking

crackit wrote: »

For a start I'm pretty sure that Cricket Irelands goal is already to improve the standards of cricket in this country so there is nothing new in that.

Aim to play county cricket by 2016? As a full county? There is an absolute tonne of logistical stuff that would go with that even if was practically implementable which it is not. You think that 3 provinces playing full county cricket in 5 years is achievable? You're dreaming. In fact you're delusional.

One out of three wouldnt be bad, maybe in 2017.

crackit wrote: »

Double the number of resident pros by 2014? Who is going to pay for that then? Again fairytale stuff that isn't even close to being practical.

14 to 28 seems realistic if you’ve got 3 sides, obviously the time line depends on success.

crackit wrote: »

1st step. 3 provincial teams. Fair enough. You know having a provincial team doesn't automatically improve the standard for a start? I'm presuming Munster, Leinster and Ulster. You do realise Munster would be garbage? Also I presume you realise there are already reprasentative North v South games played.

The point is to have represtentative games on a regular basis, ie 10 a season to improve the standard, not just occasional, but structured. If north and south is more realistic, then go for that!

crackit

You've just tried, in a milder way, to reiterate the points you made earlier.

I won't reply on this thread again because you have nothing to offer. You are now just trying to attempt to justify your mad ideas as being progressive.

I find you impossible to take seriously. There are some kernels of half decent ideas in what you say but the way you present them and your 'I'm right even when I'm wrong' attitude are too much for me to swallow.

clear thinking wrote:

;72742779

Who said anything about rapid? Fully agree.

I ignored the first point initially because there is no point adressing point 1: Finance if point 2: Will is absent, if there is no will all the money in the world is useless, is that not obvious?

I answered as much as needed to be & when asked to I pointed out a few low cost ways to get things going. My simple minded thought is that it may be possible to get 40 -50 decent standard, ultimately pro, players in the country (even if it took 10 years to get there), making test cricket possibility. Surely there is the desire for that???

As for lunch - too much info, sorry. But I have plenty more I can contribute if a reasoned debate evolves.

Who said anything about rapid? You did. Your '3 provincial teams playing county cricket in 5 years time scheme. 3 provincial teams operating on a full schedule in this country, let alone other tournaments, in the next 10 years is folly.

Will and money have now traded places with you. Do not keep saying the will is absent. You insult myself and a lot more Irish cricket folk in doing so. You ignored point 1 not because the will is absent (it is not absent) you did it because it suited you.

You talked about doubling the amount of pros within 4 years. Thats a long way from what you suggested of having 40-50 'decent standard' pros in the next decade. 45 pros by 2016 is what you said.

clear thinking wrote: »

One out of three wouldnt be bad, maybe in 2017.

14 to 28 seems realistic if you’ve got 3 sides, obviously the time line depends on success.

The point is to have represtentative games on a regular basis, ie 10 a season to improve the standard, not just occasional, but structured. If north and south is more realistic, then go for that!

One province playing country cricket on a 4 day and one day level by 2017. It wouldn't be bad. It would be a fu*king miracle. Do I need to keep repeating myself. You have no grip on reality.

Now you shift your 'Pro' scheme to 28 by 2014. I actually don't think you know what a Pro is in Irish cricket standards. Pro's aren't just internationals paid for by Cricket Ireland you know.

North and South already play. Playing 10 games a year is not realistic. Nor are all your Walter Mitty ideas.

To finish. I promise to the mods, myself and all the cricket lovers out there I will not respond to this again.

Honestly 'clear thinking' you need a new name. You're repeting the same stuff over and over despite all its flaws. I now have to repeat myself to try and steer you back into reality.

No one wants to see me repeat myself just like no one wants to listen to you make the same arguments over and over. I'm done here. Best of luck OP

clear thinking

Dont be so glum, I'll take your point that getting to a high level is a crackpot idea. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything.

But I make no apologies for harping on.

I was genuinely wondering if or how the game could be taken to a higher level. To be honest its a bit disapointing that status quo appears to be the way to go as I thought Irish cricket was more progressive, especially after the world cup furore.

The potential is out there, even if it took five, ten, fifteen years to build up to some of the stuff I was chucking out there.

TrueDub

clear thinking wrote: »

To be honest its a bit disapointing that status quo appears to be the way to go as I thought Irish cricket was more progressive, especially after the world cup furore.

What are you basing this opinion on? Nothing could be further from the truth.

The strides made in Irish cricket in the last 10 years have been phenomenal. In the 90s we were playing matches against MCC, the Free Foresters and the Club Cricket Conference of England. Now we're playing one-day internationals and first-class matches.

In club cricket pitches are improving all the time, facilities are being upgraded and new clubs are being formed. I know this to be true because I've seen it from the middle for the last 10 years.

We may not be progressing at the rate you suggest, but you're dead wrong to say there's no progress. It's being done at a sustainable rate, that's all.

crackit

It's like talking to the wall.

Look ignore me all you want and think I'm 'glum' all you want. That's fine I could care less.

If you want to actually gain some information about Irish cricket in a very succinct manner then listen to TrueDub. He has a knack for summing things up brilliantly where I tend to waffle on to make my points.

Irish cricket is already barreling forward at warp factor 11. That's a fact.

clear thinking

crackit wrote: »

It's like talking to the wall.

Look ignore me all you want and think I'm 'glum' all you want. That's fine I could care less.

If you want to actually gain some information about Irish cricket in a very succinct manner then listen to TrueDub. He has a knack for summing things up brilliantly where I tend to waffle on to make my points.

Irish cricket is already barreling forward at warp factor 11. That's a fact.

I've got a good picture now, dont worry!

HonalD

clear thinking wrote: »

I've got a good picture now, dont worry!

I'm all on for clear thinking so I've no problem with the debate on this thread. I think what is being suggested by TrueDub etc. is that the wheel turns slowly - gains are being made and hopefully on a sustainable basis.

Enjoy the summer and local cricket!

clear thinking

Good to see this finally happening even if I do say so myself

http://www.cricketireland.ie/news/article/leinster-confirm-team-name

TrueDub

It is good, but dragging up a thread from 2 years ago isn't. Please start a new thread if you wish to discuss the Leinster team name - I'm going to lock this thread.