'ball unplayable' rules clarification

aubreym

hi all,

quick rules clarification?

hit a ball into a clump of trees, under a large bush:

always thought either:
1) play again from spot you last hit the ball or
2) take 2 club length drop, with penalty of 1 stroke:

was told last night you can actually take a penalty of stroke & distance, as far back as you like, under penalty of 1 shot, between line of ball & flag.

I was under the impression this was only for a red stakes (99.999% of the time not possible to get relief) or yellow stakes.

who is correct, as not in a hazard?

charlieIRL

i have the rules as an app on my phone and it states a player can deem a ball unplayable anywhere on the course as long as its not in water.

You can do the 3 options you mentioned above with the penalty of one stroke.

If its unplayable in a bunker you still have to take the drop in the bunker.

GreeBo

aubreym wrote: »

hi all,

quick rules clarification?

hit a ball into a clump of trees, under a large bush:

always thought either:
1) play again from spot you last hit the ball or
2) take 2 club length drop, with penalty of 1 stroke:

was told last night you can actually take a penalty of stroke & distance, as far back as you like, under penalty of 1 shot, between line of ball & flag.

I was under the impression this was only for a red stakes (99.999% of the time not possible to get relief) or yellow stakes.

who is correct, as not in a hazard?

Important to point out that the drop is measured from the ball and not from the tree/obstruction etc. This happens a lot!

Dr_Colossus

aubreym wrote: »

was told last night you can actually take a penalty of stroke & distance, as far back as you like, under penalty of 1 shot, between line of ball & flag.

GreeBo wrote: »

Important to point out that the drop is measured from the ball and not from the tree/obstruction etc. This happens a lot!

Think this is one of the most commonly abused rules, well maybe apart from presuming that your ball is in a water hazard because you can't find it and taking a penalty drop on line of supposed entry.

Can someone clarify the following as I'm not sure if my understanding is correct, the two club drop can be in any direction from where the ball lies so long as it's not nearer the hole? If you still think you'll be in an unplayable lie within the two club lengths you can go back as far as you want under penalty of one stroke. Now my understanding of the second part was that the line of the penalty drop was between where the ball came to rest and where the shot was originally taken so you could effectively go back to the tee or whereever you took the shot from? From reading the above "between line of ball & flag" this is not the case as the drop line will be behind the ball but in line with the flag so for instance if you drive the ball right into deep rough/trees and take a penalty drop the line of drop would still be in the trees effectively forcing you back to the tee or place where you last took the shot?

Villain

A Good Video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFNvf6cMjZg

JOSman

Thanks Guys, that was very helpful.

Vanbis

charlieIRL wrote: »

i have the rules as an app on my phone and it states a player can deem a ball unplayable anywhere on the course as long as its not in water.

Is that Rules app on the HTC or Iphone?

Garda S Horgan

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Think this is one of the most commonly abused rules, well maybe apart from presuming that your ball is in a water hazard because you can't find it and taking a penalty drop on line of supposed entry.

Can someone clarify the following as I'm not sure if my understanding is correct, the two club drop can be in any direction from where the ball lies so long as it's not nearer the hole? If you still think you'll be in an unplayable lie within the two club lengths you can go back as far as you want under penalty of one stroke. Now my understanding of the second part was that the line of the penalty drop was between where the ball came to rest and where the shot was originally taken so you could effectively go back to the tee or whereever you took the shot from? From reading the above "between line of ball & flag" this is not the case as the drop line will be behind the ball but in line with the flag so for instance if you drive the ball right into deep rough/trees and take a penalty drop the line of drop would still be in the trees effectively forcing you back to the tee or place where you last took the shot?

Nope. In that case you are not being overly penalised for going into really bad rough or trees. You could, in theory, overshoot the green and go 50 yards past into a nightmare, but by your logic you could drop between the trees and the green for just 1 shot penalty.

What you would have to do there is either play from the original spot or try and drop in the trees or see if you can go way back beyond the trees and play from there.

Lads in foot deep rough could love to be able to pick up a ball for 1 shot and walk back on a line to where they hit from. It could end up them dropping on the edge of a green.

Yours etc,
GSH.

charlieIRL

Vanbis wrote: »

Is that Rules app on the HTC or Iphone?

iPhone. I leave my phone in the car when playing golf but might start turning on airplane mode & bringing it with me. Some lads have very vague recollection of rules when they are in difficulty but lay it on when someone else is.

stockdam

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Can someone clarify the following as I'm not sure if my understanding is correct, the two club drop can be in any direction from where the ball lies so long as it's not nearer the hole?

Correct.

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

If you still think you'll be in an unplayable lie within the two club lengths you can go back as far as you want under penalty of one stroke. Now my understanding of the second part was that the line of the penalty drop was between where the ball came to rest and where the shot was originally taken so you could effectively go back to the tee or whereever you took the shot from? From reading the above "between line of ball & flag" this is not the case as the drop line will be behind the ball but in line with the flag so for instance if you drive the ball right into deep rough/trees and take a penalty drop the line of drop would still be in the trees effectively forcing you back to the tee or place where you last took the shot?

You can go as far back as you want as long as it's on a line that extends from the flag through the point where the ball was when it was deemed to be unplayable. As you said, this sometimes doesn't work and then the best option is to go back to where your previous shot was. Unfortunately if you had played a provisional (thinking your ball might be lost) then once you find your ball the provisional cannot be played and you then have to go back and hit another one (if that's your best option).

G1032

charlieIRL wrote: »

iPhone. I leave my phone in the car when playing golf but might start turning on airplane mode & bringing it with me. Some lads have very vague recollection of rules when they are in difficulty but lay it on when someone else is.

Or just bring a rule book maybe........???????
Everyone should have a rule book in their bag anyway. They're free, light, don't take up much space.........

sky6

As I understand the rule you must first find and identify your Ball.Only then can you apply the two club length take a drop or go back as far as you like. Otherwise the only option to you is to go back to the Tee and Tee off again.

Trampas

sky6 wrote: »

As I understand the rule you must first find and identify your Ball.Only then can you apply the two club length take a drop or go back as far as you like. Otherwise the only option to you is to go back to the Tee and Tee off again.

correct if your ball isn't in a hazard.

dwd

stockdam wrote: »

Correct.




You can go as far back as you want as long as it's on a line that extends from the flag through the point where the ball was when it was deemed to be unplayable. As you said, this sometimes doesn't work and then the best option is to go back to where your previous shot was. Unfortunately if you had played a provisional (thinking your ball might be lost) then once you find your ball the provisional cannot be played and you then have to go back and hit another one (if that's your best option).

I don't get this part of the rule at all, if you make the call after your inital stroke you need to play a provisional ball, as you think that either the ball will not be found or will be unplayable if you do find it, why do you need to go back and play another ball, the penalty is the same, and all this seems to achieve is slow up play

PhilipMarlowe

It makes perfect sense because you don't hit a provisional on the basis that your original may be unplayable - only lost or OOB.
Say you are playing a match an on a par 3, you hit your original into the cabbage. Play a provisional ball and stitch it close or even hole it for a par. If your original is found in the middle of a gorse bush (by you or your opponent) then why should you get to choose which ball to play?
Also, if your original was in the bush and you made a worse job of your provo then you wouldn't be bitching about having another opportunity to go back and re-hit (assuming the 2 club-lengths and back on line options weren't any good).
It's rare enough that it happens that you hit an origanal, then hit a Provo, find the original and use the "go back to where you originally hit from" option. Any delay in play is slight enough.

killbillvol2

It's one of the shortest and simplest rules...

Rule 28

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.

When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.

Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

ManwitaPlan

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

It makes perfect sense because you don't hit a provisional on the basis that your original may be unplayable - only lost or OOB.
Say you are playing a match an on a par 3, you hit your original into the cabbage. Play a provisional ball and stitch it close or even hole it for a par. If your original is found in the middle of a gorse bush (by you or your opponent) then why should you get to choose which ball to play?
Also, if your original was in the bush and you made a worse job of your provo then you wouldn't be bitching about having another opportunity to go back and re-hit (assuming the 2 club-lengths and back on line options weren't any good).
It's rare enough that it happens that you hit an origanal, then hit a Provo, find the original and use the "go back to where you originally hit from" option. Any delay in play is slight enough.

Who decides if a ball cant be found?

Like say in your hypothetical I play a provisional on a par 3 and it goes in the hole....I sure as hell dont want to "find" my original shot.

Do I have to take five minutes to "look" or can I just walk up to the bush, say "nope, cant find it" and take the provisional?


One more thing in relation to the unplayable rule....technically I am the judge of whether a ball is unplayable so lets say I have a three foot putt, I strike too hard and it catches a slope and rolls right down a hill and into a nightmare bunker....I am perfectly within my right to call my ball "unplayable" and retake my three foot putt...my Q is would that be frowned upon and looked at as bad etiquette or just good strategy.

ps. sorry for bumping year old thread...got my 2012 and 2011 mixed up!!

SnowDrifts

ManwitaPlan wrote: »

One more thing in relation to the unplayable rule....technically I am the judge of whether a ball is unplayable so lets say I have a three foot putt, I strike too hard and it catches a slope and rolls right down a hill and into a nightmare bunker....I am perfectly within my right to call my ball "unplayable" and retake my three foot putt...my Q is would that be frowned upon and looked at as bad etiquette or just good strategy.

ps. sorry for bumping year old thread...got my 2012 and 2011 mixed up!!

Very apt username for the above plan! There is nothing in the unplayable rule that states that it doesnt apply to the green so I dont see why not! Would like clarification though - interesting scenario!

GreeBo

ManwitaPlan wrote: »

One more thing in relation to the unplayable rule....technically I am the judge of whether a ball is unplayable so lets say I have a three foot putt, I strike too hard and it catches a slope and rolls right down a hill and into a nightmare bunker....I am perfectly within my right to call my ball "unplayable" and retake my three foot putt...my Q is would that be frowned upon and looked at as bad etiquette or just good strategy.

Dont forget the 1 stroke penalty for declaring your ball unplayable...but otherwise yes. You can declare it unplayable anytime.

Whyner

and yes it would be frowned upon

GreeBo

Whyner wrote: »

and yes it would be frowned upon

You think? I've done it before (partner bladed a pitch under trees up the back of a severely sloped green, so I replayed the pitch)

SnowDrifts

Whyner wrote: »

and yes it would be frowned upon

I dont think anyone should frown upon you following the rules.

IITYWYBMAD

SnowDrifts wrote: »

I dont think anyone should frown upon you following the rules.

I suppose there's also the onus on the player to not only play within the rules, but also within the spirit of the rules.

There are literally thousands of emails sent to the R&A on rulings in strange situations (they actually publish a list of the most interesting one's with their answers if memory serves me correctly), but the onus has always been on one of self-policing.

Using the rules to your advantage is one thing, but acting the "b***ix" in the manner described above (bunker..etc), while technically not wrong, is bad form IMO.

I like playing well, I like winning, but would I make a call like that to save a stroke, win a hole or not scratch a hole? I don't think so.

PhilipMarlowe

That's just electing to play again from the same place and deciding to chose that option isn't bad form IMO. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free option because you're taking the prescribed penalty and there's always the chance of you hitting the same bad shot with the same result anyway?
Tiger did it @ The Masters one year when he putted off the green into the water - much simpler to try the putt again than go around the hazard and drop and try a short pitch over the water to a tight pin. The rules don't require you martyr yourself and duff the pitch into the pond... they give you the option to replay under penalty.

ManwitaPlan

PhilipMarlowe wrote: »

That's just electing to play again from the same place and deciding to chose that option isn't bad form IMO. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free option because you're taking the prescribed penalty and there's always the chance of you hitting the same bad shot with the same result anyway?
Tiger did it @ The Masters one year when he putted off the green into the water - much simpler to try the putt again than go around the hazard and drop and try a short pitch over the water to a tight pin. The rules don't require you martyr yourself and duff the pitch into the pond... they give you the option to replay under penalty.

Cheers fella's...its always gonna be one of those things were some from and some say fine...up to the individual I suppose.

In relation to looking for the ball...any guidance on that??? Imagine its a spirit of the game sort of thing?

carman2011

u dont have to look for your ball if u dont want to, but if your opponent finds it for u, within 5 minutes or before u have played your next shot, then its back in play.

MP62

ManwitaPlan wrote: »

Who decides if a ball cant be found?

Like say in your hypothetical I play a provisional on a par 3 and it goes in the hole....I sure as hell dont want to "find" my original shot.

Do I have to take five minutes to "look" or can I just walk up to the bush, say "nope, cant find it" and take the provisional?


One more thing in relation to the unplayable rule....technically I am the judge of whether a ball is unplayable so lets say I have a three foot putt, I strike too hard and it catches a slope and rolls right down a hill and into a nightmare bunker....I am perfectly within my right to call my ball "unplayable" and retake my three foot putt...my Q is would that be frowned upon and looked at as bad etiquette or just good strategy.

ps. sorry for bumping year old thread...got my 2012 and 2011 mixed up!!

There's no "technically" about it, you are the sole judge of whether or not your ball is unplayable, no one else's opinion matters and in fact shouldn't be sought after or given as it could be interpreted as advice and incur a further penalty.
Also in your example, no it wouldn't be frowned upon and would be considered a good strategy if you were a s**t bunker player, only problem in your example is you still have to hit the same putt you just made a balls of, also just to make sure that you do realise that if you were putting for birdie, you are now putting for bogey.