Red Cow Park+Ride Vandalism

panevthe3rd

Hi, I parked my car at the Red Cow Park and Ride yesterday, only noticed this morning that somebody is after keying it all down the side and scratched and S shape into two of the windows!!!

Really annoyed of course but is there anything I can do? Does the company running the place monitor it at all? I'm sure they would have noticed if I hadn't paid for my parking.

I don't use the place much but surely if your paying for parking then your car should be safe and somebody should be taking responsability.

Anyone have any experience with this? Gonna be ringing the later on about it but just wanted to see if anyone knew anything first.

Thanks

foggy_lad

panevthe3rd wrote: »

Hi, I parked my car at the Red Cow Park and Ride yesterday, only noticed this morning that somebody is after keying it all down the side and scratched and S shape into two of the windows!!!

Really annoyed of course but is there anything I can do? Does the company running the place monitor it at all? I'm sure they would have noticed if I hadn't paid for my parking.

I don't use the place much but surely if your paying for parking then your car should be safe and somebody should be taking responsability.

Anyone have any experience with this? Gonna be ringing the later on about it but just wanted to see if anyone knew anything first.

Thanks

They will tell you your car is parked at your own risk but afaik once you have paid for parking they have a duty of care so must pay for the damage so I would get a few repair estimates and write to the company. it is probably going to be the company responsible for the carpark rather than veolia who you make a claim against. You would only be wasting your time ringing them IMHO as most companies ignore such calls.

n97 mini

While I'd normally advise people not to bother wasting their money on solicitors, this is one of the few times I'd actually recommend getting one to write a letter.

Stark

Given that they'd clamp you in a heartbeat if you parked slightly outside the line, I'd definitely get on to making them own up to their responsibilities if possible.

BrianD

You need to report to the Gardai straight away as it's a crime and needs to go record and then report it by phone to the the car park operator and follow up with a letter.

Make sure you take photos and keep any tickets to prove you were there.

I'm sure that the car park operator will claim no responsibility and will state that vehicles are left at your own risk. I wouldn't hold out for a positive response.

Tabnabs

I can guarantee that they will politely decline your offer to allow them to pay for your damage.

You are paying for parking on their site, nothing more, nothing less. If you car was stolen, would you expect them to replace it?

It's very unfortunate and I completely sympathise, but it's not their job to keep your car secure. If a law is broken, the gards are the ones to deal with.

n97 mini

Personal belongings are being held in trust by the car park owner. The law does not support outright the premise that the car park owner bears no liability in such circumstances.

By accepting a fee the owner of the premises has knowingly allowed the vehicle onto the premises.

BrianD

Every car park has this disclaimer that they are not responsible for your car or property contained as you are paying to park only.

Are you aware of cases where the car park has paid out for theft or damage?

Stark

Disclaimers represent nothing more than wishful thinking on the writer's part. Legally, they're worthless.

I don't think they're fully liable but if you can show that they were completely negligent, ie: no CCTV or security anywhere, then you might be able to take the case that they should have taken reasonable precautions to protect your property. You'll need to get legal advice from someone qualified on that though.

n97 mini

There is the concept of occupier's liability and in instances where loss or damage occurs due the a fault with the premises, then the owner of the premises is automatically liable. This is despite signs that say "No responsibility for loss or damage etc etc". Those signs are to discourage people who don't know any better.

This one isn't as clear cut, and needs to be tested on its own merit.

schemingbohemia

n97 mini wrote: »

There is the concept of occupier's liability and in instances where loss or damage occurs due the a fault with the premises, then the owner of the premises is automatically liable. This is despite signs that say "No responsibility for loss or damage etc etc". Those signs are to discourage people who don't know any better.

This one isn't as clear cut, and needs to be tested on its own merit.

And pray what fault was the car park owner/operator guilty of in this case? That they allowed gougers to park there or enter the premises? Were they selling items whose only purpose was to scratch cars?

On an absolute hiding to nothing here OP sorry to say.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

There is the concept of occupier's liability and in instances where loss or damage occurs due the a fault with the premises, then the owner of the premises is automatically liable. This is despite signs that say "No responsibility for loss or damage etc etc". Those signs are to discourage people who don't know any better.

This one isn't as clear cut, and needs to be tested on its own merit.

If your car gets scratched in a shopping centre car park the shopping centre are responsible so surely it works the same here? You are not abandoning your car but leaving it in the care of the tram company who have a duty of care to keep your goods in good condition after accepting them from you by allowing you to park and allowing you to pay for the privilage.

AlekSmart

schemingbohemia wrote: »

And pray what fault was the car park owner/operator guilty of in this case? That they allowed gougers to park there or enter the premises? Were they selling items whose only purpose was to scratch cars?

On an absolute hiding to nothing here OP sorry to say.

+1 Scheminbohemia.

Has anybody ever had a quick look around this car park,particularly on a Monday morning ?

The several pools of broken safety glass will give one a hint as to the activities which many of the car-parks customers get up to.

The reality is that unless the OP can PROVE negligence on the part of the Car park operators then it's game over.

The fact that there is CCTV in place will almost certainly prove that the Operator has/is taking all "reasonable" steps to ensure a safe environment and I would suggest that unless one could prove that the attack was carried out by an employee,its not a runner...but,you coulkd always engage a solicitor to progress your case and see where it leads ?

As an aside,can the OP definitively prove that the vandalism took place in the car park ?...ie: what was the time lag between parking there and the discovery next morning of the damage ?

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

The several pools of broken safety glass will give one a hint as to the activities which many of the car-parks customers get up to.

would that constant activity not add up to negligence on that part of the operator, they know it's constantly going on yet do nothing to prevent it...

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

If your car gets scratched in a shopping centre car park the shopping centre are responsible so surely it works the same here? You are not abandoning your car but leaving it in the care of the tram company who have a duty of care to keep your goods in good condition after accepting them from you by allowing you to park and allowing you to pay for the privilage.

say what now bosco? care to provide proof of this statement?

panevthe3rd

Hey thanks for all the replies. Does seem to be going around in circles though.

Its on of those common sense versus the law as far as I can tell.

I can say for sure that it happened at the car park because I spotted the S shape in the window on my drive home but thought it was just my brother after making an S shape when the window fogged up and thought no more until I looked at the car this morning and realised what had happened.

Got onto the company that run the car park and sure enough I got the "you park your car at your own risk. We have no responsability" line.

I went on to ask if there is CCTV on the premises and she said that she doesn't have any access to it. Thought that was weird.

So got onto the Garda station that covers that area and they said they aren't fully sure how the law looks at these things themselves but they have heard of people successfully winning claims in civil cases of this type. They did say that they can check CCTV if it exists but unless somebody is wearing a nametag I don't see that helping much.

So I'm gonna report it at my local station and ask a solicitor if they would have any ideas where to go.

I'm not expecting much but its worth a go. I don't see why they don't have responsabilty myself. If somebody paid me to park their car outside my house i'd feel fairly responsable if something happened. But I suppose thats the common sense versus the law thing again.

-Chris-

panevthe3rd wrote: »

They did say that they can check CCTV if it exists but unless somebody is wearing a nametag I don't see that helping much.

Maybe not a name tag, but they may scratch your car and then walk off and get into another (hopefully identifiable) car. I'd be asking for the CCTV just in case.

schemingbohemia

-Chris- wrote: »

Maybe not a name tag, but they may scratch your car and then walk off and get into another (hopefully identifiable) car. I'd be asking for the CCTV just in case.

Sorry but the Garda would have to do that, my understanding of the Data Protection act is that they're supposed to block out identifying features eg faces and or license plate numbers before handing over to a punter not included in the footage. So the OP could see himself getting in and out of the car but not the gougers who scratched the car. The Garda on the other hand can obviously see this though whether they would be bothered is another matter.

BrianD

panevthe3rd wrote: »

I went on to ask if there is CCTV on the premises and she said that she doesn't have any access to it. Thought that was weird.

So got onto the Garda station that covers that area and they said they aren't fully sure how the law looks at these things themselves but they have heard of people successfully winning claims in civil cases of this type. They did say that they can check CCTV if it exists but unless somebody is wearing a nametag I don't see that helping much.

So I'm gonna report it at my local station and ask a solicitor if they would have any ideas where to go.

Nobody will do anything till you file formal reports in writing to both the car park operator and Gardai. You will need to request the CCTV in writing but do it fast. I have heard that LUAS CCTV recordings are wiped faster than you think. You might call them at tell them you are making a formal request and hold the tapes.

I wouldn't hold out on much of an outcome but it is your right to make the report. If there are no reports there are no stats and therefore no problems. Even the AGS commissioner said that all crime no matter how small should be reported.

n97 mini

Another thing is the CCTV will prove the damage was done on their premises.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Sorry but the Garda would have to do that, my understanding of the Data Protection act is that they're supposed to block out identifying features eg faces and or license plate numbers before handing over to a punter not included in the footage. So the OP could see himself getting in and out of the car but not the gougers who scratched the car. The Garda on the other hand can obviously see this though whether they would be bothered is another matter.

No, the Gardaí will apply common sense, in the event the OP would like to bring a civil action. I have known them personally to give the name and address of the a person who damaged another car going on the registration of the perp's car.

Victor

schemingbohemia wrote: »

say what now bosco?

Care to explain the Bosco comment?

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

If your car gets scratched in a shopping centre car park the shopping centre are responsible so surely it works the same here?

Probably, but as I said I think this one may need to be tested as it's slightly different.

NedNew2

Hi panevthe3rd,

I commend and encourage you to follow up on this by the legal route. Far too many people in this country don't bother and even if you fail it may cause the operators to buck up if they realise that people (victims) are prepared to fight their cause.

Best of luck.

foggy_lad

n97 mini wrote: »

Probably, but as I said I think this one may need to be tested as it's slightly different.

You are right in as far as I have only seen an example when the damage was caused in a shopping centre carpark by kids messing with a trolley and the security guard was aware they were there as he had told them to stop messing with the trolleys but was negligent in not having the kids removed as they had no business in the shopping centre or the carpark.

A friend was looking to take a case against the kids for damage to his car but was advised to go for the shopping centre as they were negligent in their duty of care. The carpark was free but provided for shoppers so the same duty of care should exist as if you had paid for parking.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

The carpark was free but provided for shoppers so the same duty of care should exist as if you had paid for parking.

The fact that this carpark is not free strengthens the case further.

schemingbohemia

Victor wrote: »

Care to explain the Bosco comment?

A phrase from my youth, no offense was intended by it.

A day in the life

I also had my car vandalised over the weekend in the park & ride at the Red Cow. Windscreen got badly smashed up and a dent left in the bonnet. The offending rock was left laying beside the car.

I've been informed by veoila who control the CCTV for the carpark that anti-social behaviour like this is rare. Reading this thread now I'm not convinced and I won't be using this car park again.

robbie_998

i must say it is actually quite rare for a car to be vandalized in that car park... this is the first i've heard of this now.

but to make it clear as i have being working in a car park for the last two months now of a big store next to a shopping center !

The company is in no way responsible for damage to or loss to your vehicle

We have had many van break ins (which is going down now as im keeping a good eye about and know what these muppets drive.. soo close to catching them the last time !) and although its not the companies fault we do call the gardai straight away as we see it and we throw a camera or two on the scene where possible ... we do get car reg's and the likes but all we do is pass all this on to the gardai. the gardai look after it all and look at the camera footage and get a copy and its actually down to your insurance to look after it if it should come to it.

for them to be strict about not giving the cctv footage is very strange. they are not obliged by law in anyway to give it to you but at the same time i dont see why not and many people have gotten cctv before for other things like car crashes and what not.

all i can say here is try get the cctv footage cos i know from passing there a couple of times they do have it and pass it on to the gardai . other than that theres actually not much at all you can do.

sorry you had your car damaged man... it is a terrible thing to happen

foggy_lad

robbie_998 wrote: »

i must say it is actually quite rare for a car to be vandalized in that car park... this is the first i've heard of this now.

but to make it clear as i have being working in a car park for the last two months now of a big store next to a shopping center !

The company is in no way responsible for damage to or loss to your vehicle

We have had many van break ins (which is going down now as im keeping a good eye about and know what these muppets drive.. soo close to catching them the last time !) and although its not the companies fault we do call the gardai straight away as we see it and we throw a camera or two on the scene where possible ... we do get car reg's and the likes but all we do is pass all this on to the gardai. the gardai look after it all and look at the camera footage and get a copy and its actually down to your insurance to look after it if it should come to it.

for them to be strict about not giving the cctv footage is very strange. they are not obliged by law in anyway to give it to you but at the same time i dont see why not and many people have gotten cctv before for other things like car crashes and what not.

all i can say here is try get the cctv footage cos i know from passing there a couple of times they do have it and pass it on to the gardai . other than that theres actually not much at all you can do.

sorry you had your car damaged man... it is a terrible thing to happen

If the company that "own" the car park(not the operators) and charge for you to leave your car there have been negligent in their care of your property(they employ the car park company for this) then they are responsible for any costs incurred in repairing the vandalism

robbie_998

foggy_lad wrote: »

If the company that "own" the car park(not the operators) and charge for you to leave your car there have been negligent in their care of your property(they employ the car park company for this) then they are responsible for any costs incurred in repairing the vandalism

but is that not going back to if the car was stolen you would expect them to replace it ?

is this not what insurance was intended for ?

foggy_lad

robbie_998 wrote: »

but is that not going back to if the car was stolen you would expect them to replace it ?

is this not what insurance was intended for ?

if the car is stolen and the company are found to be negligent then they will foot the bill but if they did everything they could reasonably be expected to do by having cameras and security then it is your insurance company who wil take the hit, if some little scumbag vandal is wandering around Luas Red cow park and ride unchallanged by the security then they are negligent!