Bounced Cheque

JonW

Ive just had a cheque bounce for the second time in 18months by a builder who I believe is writing cheques knowing theres zero funds in his account. I was told yesterday that I can go to his branch (Ulster Bank) and ask for a draft for the amount (1000) providing there's funds in his account. Is this true? I believe hes starting a large job soon so Im assuming he will have funds in his account.

You would think in such cases that the cheque would stay valid if/when funds become available in the account of the person who wrote the cheque (unlawfully) in the first place.

seamus

You should be able to present a cheque at the person's branch along with your own ID and withdraw the funds directly as cash or draft, assuming that they have the funds.

Even after a cheque has bounced, you can present it again to the same bank to try and withdraw the funds a second time.

I'm not sure if there's anything specifically illegal about writing a cheque when you don't have the funds to cover it, though I don't know what the law says about using cheques to pay off debt.

Mr. Presentable

Writing a cheque without funds to cover it is fraud, and can be prosecuted.

OP, I'd talk to the issuer and ask him when you can lodge the cheque again. There is usually a charge to you for an uncleared cheque, so you don't want to be trying to lodge it too often.

PCPhoto

seamus wrote: »

You should be able to present a cheque at the person's branch along with your own ID and withdraw the funds directly as cash or draft, assuming that they have the funds.

Even after a cheque has bounced, you can present it again to the same bank to try and withdraw the funds a second time.

I'm not sure if there's anything specifically illegal about writing a cheque when you don't have the funds to cover it, though I don't know what the law says about using cheques to pay off debt.

you mean fraud !!

JonW

Thanks - Heading to the Bank now. Will let you know what they say..

MagicSean

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Writing a cheque without funds to cover it is fraud, and can be prosecuted.

OP, I'd talk to the issuer and ask him when you can lodge the cheque again. There is usually a charge to you for an uncleared cheque, so you don't want to be trying to lodge it too often.

Fraud under which section?

Mr. Presentable

Section four of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act of 2001

Taxedalot

JonW wrote: »

Thanks - Heading to the Bank now. Will let you know what they say..

Bring the cheque to your own bank and ask them to send it for special collection. There is usually a small charge for this, but what it essentially means is that his cheque will be replaced with a guaranteed payment when funds are in the account. Its not as black and white as just lodging it which will result in it bouncing straight away if the funds aren't in his account.

source

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Section four of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act of 2001

Section 4 is Theft, not fraud. The closest it could be is Section 6, and it doesn't even fit into that offence.

Mr. Presentable

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/customers-bouncing-cheques-now-face-jail-142546.html

A Judge would disagree with you.

I presume (but not being a lawyer cannot say so with conviction) that it would come under the provision for

Making gain or causing loss by deception
or
Obtaining services by deception.
or maybe
Making off without payment

seamus

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Writing a cheque without funds to cover it is fraud, and can be prosecuted.

Is this in case law?

It's fraud if you obtain good or services by deception. So if you pay for something with a cheque (say petrol), knowing that it won't clear, then that's fraud and/or theft.

However, both offences require an intent to leave the other party out of pocket. In the case that someone writes a cheque knowing that they don't currently have funds but expect to by the time the cheque clears, then the waters are muddy.

In order for someone to be convicted of fraud for writing a bad cheque, you need to show that they did not have any intention of honouring the debt for which the cheque was written.

Where a cheque is written to get someone to go away for a week or so, the creditor would be well within their rights to levy additional fees onto the debt for the failure to pay on a promise. But it would be much harder to have them done for fraud if they ultimately paid the debt.

In the OP's case, while the builder would appear to be acting foolishly and with little regard for his customers, there doesn't appear to be any intent to make off without paying.

shaneybaby

If it's anything, a bounced cheque is actionable in it's own right. Ther's no need to have to prove the debt

Bills of Exchange Act 1882 (c. 61) (Valid in ireland afaik http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/isbc/bps1882.html http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/act/pub/0028/sched1.html#sched1-part4)

47 Dishonour by non-payment
(1)A bill is dishonoured by non-payment (a) when it is duly presented for payment and payment is refused or cannot be obtained, or (b) when presentment is excused and the bill is overdue and unpaid.
(2)Subject to the provisions of this Act, when a bill is dishonoured by non-payment, an immediate right of recourse against the drawer and indorsers accrues to the holder.

JonW

Went to his Ulster Bank branch - who said I must go to TSB - who said they dont offer such services anymore... Goes to show how many cheques are bouncing these days!

Unfortunately the s***head has gone missing/left the wife/mobile off etc so its back to the drawing board. There should be a website flagging these guys - www.Does-Your-Builder-Pay.ie

If you think about it..would you hire a builder who owed every supplier money and was writing cheques knowing that he had no funds in his accounts?!

Its s***heads like this who have the country in the mess its in!

Dorie

i recieved a cheque thismorning for the sale of my car its a barclays cheque and seems dodgy i lodged it into the bank of ireland for collection .. the person hasnt got my car yet says he will collect it when the cheques cleared but that could take weeks :mad: does anyone know how long it takes

gustafo

Dorie wrote: »

i recieved a cheque thismorning for the sale of my car its a barclays cheque and seems dodgy i lodged it into the bank of ireland for collection .. the person hasnt got my car yet says he will collect it when the cheques cleared but that could take weeks :mad: does anyone know how long it takes

Around 7 days i think.

Dorie

:Pseven days thats not so bad thanks very much

Jo King

A credit may show up in your account after lodging the cheque. This does not mean it has cleared. If the cheque subsequently bounces the bank will roll back the credit. Before releasing the car ring your bank and make sure the cheque has fully cleared. Get confirmation by e-mail or fax.

worded

Dorie wrote: »

i recieved a cheque thismorning for the sale of my car its a barclays cheque and seems dodgy i lodged it into the bank of ireland for collection .. the person hasnt got my car yet says he will collect it when the cheques cleared but that could take weeks :mad: does anyone know how long it takes

Sounds odd. I heard a radio prog once. Woman was scammed. Bank said draft was cleared as cash after 5 days. The bank withdrew all the money 30 days later saying it was a stolen draft!

Consider asking the buyer if he can meet you at a local police station with Id like a passport and/or licence that match the cheque name and see how he reacts.

Imagine yourself as the buyer, would you part with a cheque for full payment of a few 1000 without the car log book?

One good way to get payment for a car is both parties go to the buyers bank and get a draft written there and then in front of the teller.

A bank draft is a good as cash - only ifs its genuine!

Still in doubt - ask your bank how many days it takes a cheque to clear - and get it in writing from the bank - thats essential.

Dorie

i put it down in the bank for collection so the cheque goes back to the main barclays bank and if its dodgy they will just ring to confirm the bank tellor said its the safe option takes abit longer tough and any costs incurred if it is fake go back to the person who wrote the cheque or something to that effect..

Jo King

Be sure to get it confirmed in writing by your bank that Barclays told them the cheque was OK.

westies4ever

Dorie wrote: »

i recieved a cheque thismorning for the sale of my car its a barclays cheque and seems dodgy i lodged it into the bank of ireland for collection .. the person hasnt got my car yet says he will collect it when the cheques cleared but that could take weeks :mad: does anyone know how long it takes

barclays? is it sterling? if so it could take 28 days to clear

Dorie

westies4ever wrote: »

barclays? is it sterling? if so it could take 28 days to clear

yeah its sterling not impressed should have got the buyer to get a bank draft instead.. maybe its for the best waiting if it is a dud.. my cars going nowhere at the moment:rolleyes:

RangeR

westies4ever wrote: »

barclays? is it sterling? if so it could take 28 days to clear

^^ This. Anything less than a month and the issuer can reverse it. We got stung a year ago.

• Received cheque
• Money went into account
• Provided service to customer
• Few days later money disappeared from account.
• Bank claimed the customer cancelled cheque.
• Customer couldn't be contacted

Lesson learned is that we NO LONGER accept UK cheques from private individuals, under ANY circumstances. Sorry UK people, but we can't afford to take a half grand ~ hit, even rarely.

westies4ever

RangeR wrote: »

^^ This. Anything less than a month and the issuer can reverse it. We got stung a year ago.

• Received cheque
• Money went into account
• Provided service to customer
• Few days later money disappeared from account.
• Bank claimed the customer cancelled cheque.
• Customer couldn't be contacted

Less learned is that we NO LONGER accept UK cheques from private individuals, under ANY circumstances. Sorry UK people, but we can't afford to take a half grand ~ hit, even rarely.

Thats horrible!! We were lucky, it was a tax rebate cheque from our time in the north so no worries on anything like that, but it took a month to clear through our PTSB account.

hardCopy

General question, is there any reason to use a cheque these days?

Would a bank transfer not be safer?

RangeR

hardCopy wrote: »

General question, is there any reason to use a cheque these days?

Would a bank transfer not be safer?

We still get cheques. Pain in the gonads.

Having said that, we still issue cheques ... sometimes ... too. At least we used to. We are migrating to business online banking. Much more convenient.

Dorie

i think he was tryin to scam me i had an uneasy feeling about it thats why i sent it back for collection:mad:.. better to be safe than sorry..i worse case sinario i would end up at the loss of the car im tryin to sell and the bank would take the money back from my account its driveing me mad.. theirs chancers everywhere these days:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Dorie

hardCopy wrote: »

General question, is there any reason to use a cheque these days?

Would a bank transfer not be safer?

it didnt enter my mind to ask the buyer for a bank transfer until i got the cheque i started to question it then. its the first time i tried to sell any car i guess ive learned not to be such a novice in the future