Economics of water charges

This is an attempt to put figures into perspective....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8483009.stm

One of the world's biggest desalination plants is about to open in Australia's most populous - and thirstiest - city, Sydney

The $1.7bn (£1.04bn) scheme

Construction of the Kurnell facility began in late 2007 and it can produce 250 megalitres of water each day, about 15% of Sydney's needs.

1.08 Billion in Euros is the cost to build one of the biggest desalination plants in the world. Can provide 15% of Sydneys water, a city of 4.4 million people. Thats about the figure the govt aims to bring in EVERY YEAR with water charges. And desalination is the most expensive way of getting drinking water!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0125/breaking30.html

The Government intends to raise as much as €1 billion per annum from water metering charges when they are introduced

Remember the billion to build Sydneys desalination plant is a ONCE OFF cost. Running and maintaining it is much cheaper.

RichardAnd

Yeah but water charges here are not about the issue of providing water, they're about getting more money. That is to say, they are a tax by another name.

20Cent

You can bet this money won't be spent on water it will be going straight into the banks. Roman Abramovich needs a few extra feet for his yacht and a personal submarine. Carers and people with special needs children nothing for them though.

rumour

I'll be accused of speculation with no evidence. We will introduce meters then with a quantifiable system and quantifiable revenue it will be privatized, as soon as it becomes clear we are heading for default. Just like greece we'll be told to sell assets.

This of course will be sold to us very differently, the state does not have the means for the capital investment required to upgrade the system, the true extent of this requirement has only become apparent since metering was introduced, our european colleagues have the finance and expertise to do all of this for us. This will be easily rationalised to avoid going anywhere near the croke park agreement. Expect french companies (who operate over 50% of the worlds piped water supply) to profit from this revenue in the future.

This happened all over the UK, reporting a leak to Severn Trent water of one of their mains on a public road landed me with a bill for its repair. Anyway point being unless they can make someone else pay they will invest nothing in the system.

I am not against metering and would generally be more right than left in current understandings but I am 100% against a private water supply.

ardmacha

Money is fungible. This money can be spent on water, allowing the money presently spent on water be used to reduce the deficit.

On one hand, you have threads wondering if Morgan Kelly is right and the deficit can be reduced in one year. Yet when the government propose charges and taxes that exist in almost every other country you get long threads whining about these measures. You have to wonder!

P. Breathnach

I think the OP qualifies for the "Misleading Header of the Week" award.

The only point that links a desalination plant in Sydney with Irish water services is water.

tiny timy

Will these new water rates finally be the straw that breaks the camels back? Are we really and truely just going to sit back once again and get shafted by another Government. Us Irish are world leaders in giving out about everything and yet doing nothing about it. Now is our time to finally stamp our two feet firmly on the ground and just say NO!!!. Enough is enough, i'm surprised they haven't put in a tax for donating blood yet. Maybe they haven't thought of that one.

If we all stick together on this and refuse to pay a penny on these stealth tax's or let these poxy water meters be installed on our own private property, what are they going to do? Put us all in Jail? Time they caught a grip of themselves and see how the people of this Island are living and cop on. After that show on Primetime the other night it just goes to show you what they think of us.

ardmacha

ardmacha wrote: »

Money is fungible. This money can be spent on water, allowing the money presently spent on water be used to reduce the deficit.

On one hand, you have threads wondering if Morgan Kelly is right and the deficit can be reduced in one year. Yet when the government propose charges and taxes that exist in almost every other country you get long threads whining about these measures. You have to wonder!

reducing spending (morgan kelly) and increasing taxes (water charges) are different things

sarumite

tiny timy wrote: »

If we all stick together on this and refuse to pay a penny on these stealth tax's or let these poxy water meters be installed on our own private property, what are they going to do? Put us all in Jail? Time they caught a grip of themselves and see how the people of this Island are living and cop on. After that show on Primetime the other night it just goes to show you what they think of us.

They will just find another way to get the money. If that is resisted, then they will find another way until either they get the money needed or they run out of money and start cutting services.

ardmacha

reducing spending (morgan kelly) and increasing taxes (water charges) are different things

Not really. if the government privatised water it would remove it from government spending altogether and it wouldn't involve any taxes.

This is the problem with this debate. Balancing the budget involves the government paying for less, which means that people pay for these things directly. But everyone bleats about "stealth" taxes to attempt to avoid paying their share.

jakdelad

i wonder will the new board for the creamy gravy jobs of the national waterboard be interview for their posts by an outside contractor
or will it be by govt appointment????
dont worry folks the millions generated from gouging the public for water
will fatten the fat cats

wait till they trot out the sh1te
we will be spending millions improving and upgrading the water system
what your drinking now is only piss

oh and every other country has water charges ,, so what
its not a competition ,
other countries have great healthcare too

Amhran Nua

ardmacha wrote: »

Yet when the government propose charges and taxes that exist in almost every other country you get long threads whining about these measures. You have to wonder!

Yes, you have to wonder what exactly what we've gotten in exchange for expenditure multiplying rapidly over the last ten years.

ardmacha

ardmacha wrote: »

taxes that exist in almost every other country you get long threads whining about these measures.

Water isnt free at the moment, just because there isnt an explicitly named charge doesnt mean we get it for nothing.

ardmacha

Yes, you have to wonder what exactly what we've gotten in exchange for expenditure multiplying rapidly over the last ten years.

As I have said here before I would draw up a detailed account of all publicly funded services in say 2000 and then 2010, indicating the services provided, and the resources, number of staff to provide them etc. In some cases this would show more students in education, more roads gritted, more medical treatments etc. But in other cases it would not show any increase in volume, only in expenditure. Presently though, only aggregate figures are produced, and usually only for spending, not outcomes, so any informed debate is largely impossible (which doesn't stop many from spouting here).

In some cases, services have to reduced back to those provided in 2000, but there is little clarity as to what has been added since then.

Amhran Nua

ardmacha wrote: »

In some cases, services have to reduced back to those provided in 2000, but there is little clarity as to what has been added since then.

No need to go back that far, 2004 expenditure levels are about our income at the moment. As for clarity, we aren't talking millions or billions, we're talking tens of billions, so I am quite certain there are very clear accounts indicating what went where.

ardmacha

No need to go back that far, 2004 expenditure levels are about our income at the moment. As for clarity, we aren't talking millions or billions, we're talking tens of billions, so I am quite certain there are very clear accounts indicating what went where.

2004 is good for the average, but you may have to spend more on welfare or you may decide to spend more on retraining etc., so less has to be spent on something else and those things may have to be reduced to 2000 levels.

Paddysnapper

This just does not stack up... How can you charge people for what is mainly undrinkable dangerous **** infected water, water treatment is for the most part a myth. This would not stand up in a court in Europe if opposed by the populous.

Next rant: What about private wells on rural properties, people who paid to have it drilled, paid for the raising equipment, paid for the permission, by way of panning. What will be their status?

I suspect the people of Ennis and Galway who I well know are not the only ones with undrinkable supplies would be well entitled to take a case to the European courts.:mad:

Amhran Nua

ardmacha wrote: »

2004 is good for the average, but you may have to spend more on welfare or you may decide to spend more on retraining etc., so less has to be spent on something else and those things may have to be reduced to 2000 levels.

The government wasn't exactly a lean, mean, efficient machine in 2004 either, so I'm confident that reductions can be made without undue compromises in service, especially if coupled with more efficient work practices. Health in particular is a complete mess.

Neffa2

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No need to go back that far, 2004 expenditure levels are about our income at the moment. As for clarity, we aren't talking millions or billions, we're talking tens of billions, so I am quite certain there are very clear accounts indicating what went where.

I agree - although a bit earlier - 2002/2003 is benchmark we should look at - of course a rough adjustment from now, but that's where income is so that's where spending should be too.