Principal causing serious and unwarranted upset to student

crimsonrain

Hi

First post so sorry if I'm rambling on a bit. I'm just looking for opinions/ advice from teachers who are used to dealing with students every day. My daughter is currently attending a boarding school and I have some concerns about the principal of the school. We had some problems with the school a couple of years ago, nothing to do with bad behaviour on my daughters part, but concern by the school that my daughter was somewhat depressed etc. but those problems were ironed out at the time and I thought that the principal had moved on from our difference of opinion.

The problems this year may seem to some as somewhat trivial but my daughter is very upset by the principlas behaviour towards her and it is affecting her ability to concentrate and study which is worrying as she will sit her Leaving Cert next year.

My daughter was very ill at the beginning of the school year and has missed some time because of illness, but each time she returns to school the principal remarks to her that she has missed time, is falling behind and needs to keep an eye on her attendance. My daughter is a very conscientious student and this worries her greatly. Furthermore, she has been extremely lucky this year despite her illness, winning an essay writing competition and winning an international medal in sport. The principal always congratulates girls who do well academically or in sport at morning assembly or by calling to the classroom but she has never once mentioned my daughter's achievements. Two years ago another girl won the same essay-writing prize as my daughter and she had her photo taken for display in the school and was congratulated in front of the entire student body.

As an adult I would say she is not worth worrying about and that one should be happy with their achievements and not worry about what others think, but for teenagers it is different and my daughter is devastated by the attitude and behaviour of the principal towards her.

As I said she will sit her leaving cert next year, any advice from teachers as to how I should approach the situation or what I should do?

Thanks

rebel10

I would imagine that if your daughter was sick for quite some time and had a medical cert to explain her absences, the principal should be sympathetic towards her and offer her help in some way to make up for topics missed in classes. That is my opinion as a teacher.

The acknowledgement of your daughters achievements is something which is done, but perhaps you could possibly ring the school to inform the school of her awards if the school is unaware of it, perhaps it took place outside of school. Personally speaking, if someone in my class won a prize that was linked to my subject, inside or outside of school, I would give the principal a note to ask him to congratulate him/her.

Honestly, I would just contact the principal to just let him know you have concerns over the classes she has missed and that she is quite worried also, but you will ensure that she does get the courses covered.

crimsonrain

Thank you so much rebel 10 for your reply. As regards the absences, my daughter always had a medical cert, usually from the hospital as there was a worry that she had a cancerous tumor. I made the principal aware of this situation when it arose last August and to tell the truth it has taken a lot out of myself and my husband as well as my daughter having to face the possibility of her dealing with such an illness at her age. Fortunately she is ok but she has continuing health issues which cause her to miss some time at school and this can't be avoided. Many family members have died of cancer at a young age and the last year has really tested my daughters strenght but the principal, despite being completely aware of the problrms, has been unhelpful and I would even say has gone out of her way to make things harder for my daughter.

As regards the prizes, one was a competition she entered through the school and thre principal was made aware by the university awarding the prize that my daughter had won and when she won her sports medal she told the principal herself. The principal seems to have taken a set against my daughter and will not congratulate her no matter how well she does.

rebel10

God, I'm very sorry to hear of all she, and of course your family, have had to go through, but as you say things are positive now so hopefully she can regain the life she had before her illness.
Because I don't know the in's and out's of the whole story, I would suggest maybe arranging a meeting time with the principal before this term finishes this week. You can outline all she has had to face and discuss possible ways she may be able to make up for the work missed before heading into the Leaving Cert year. Because she has the summer holidays now, she can focus on things a little more and give herself enough time to catch. I would also suggest in the meeting that you make the principal aware of how fragile she is at the moment regarding comments made about absenteeism and that you are worried about the implications this may have.
She is entering her final year in secondary school. She has been through a huge amount already, more than any young person especially should ever have to face. I can only imagine how worried you are for her but I would suggest, just for her sake, to try and let anything that has happened in the past, stay in the past, and remind the principal that they ought to do the same.
Could the Year head or the Guidance Councillor be contacted just so they can help in whatever way they can to make next year a little less stressful for her?

rational

I think the title of your post is way over the top. You and your daughter may feel slighted by the actions of the Principal but from what you are saying I dont believe this person is causing "serious and unwarrented upset" to your daughter.

Your daughter maybe a teenager but she could learn a bit of perspective regarding being praised. She has done well; does she really need the validation of the principal? Maybe she could feel a little put out by not getting formal recognition but to call it serious and unwarrented upset is serious OTT

You sound upset yourself by this and I dare say your upset at the principal is feeding her upset and vica versa.

As far as him commenting on her needing to work because she missed time. I would comment him or her for this as he/she is taking a good interest in your daughter.

A principal of a school is a human being. Two years ago a teacher could have came to him and said " would you mention so and so winning such and such" and he would have done it. Im sure its nothing personal that he did not mention your daughters achievments. I am actually pretty positive he was not trying to slight her in any way and it was just a complete oversite or he simply was not made aware or he was thinking of a hundred other things at the time. Remember he has probably 600 or 700 students he needs to be thinking of every day and each of these kids and there parents are probably as demanding as you. What a thankless job.

I realise your daughter may have been through a lot but I cannot understand how you think this principal is going out of his way to ignore or upset your daughter. Is just very implausable.

Art Teacher

Crimsonrain, Sorry to hear that your daughter has been so unwell.

As she is attending a boarding school, the ethos in the school could be one of putting pressure on students to achieve high grades with little consideration of the development of the whole person.

I would suggest that you have a meeting with the principal.
Tell her that your daughter has had a lot of health set backs, has missed a lot of time and because of this your daughters self esteem needs to be encouraged - actively boosted, through praise, as much as possible.

Dont be confrontational with the Principal - be nice as pie - keep making the point as to how badly her self confidence is being repeatedly knocked by her health, compounded by having to be absent from school. Please Principal - is there anything you can do to boost my daughters confidence? It would mean so much to her?

crimsonrain

rational wrote: »

I think the title of your post is way over the top. You and your daughter may feel slighted by the actions of the Principal but from what you are saying I dont believe this person is causing "serious and unwarrented upset" to your daughter.

Your daughter maybe a teenager but she could learn a bit of perspective regarding being praised. She has done well; does she really need the validation of the principal? Maybe she could feel a little put out by not getting formal recognition but to call it serious and unwarrented upset is serious OTT

You sound upset yourself by this and I dare say your upset at the principal is feeding her upset and vica versa.

As far as him commenting on her needing to work because she missed time. I would comment him or her for this as he/she is taking a good interest in your daughter.

A principal of a school is a human being. Two years ago a teacher could have came to him and said " would you mention so and so winning such and such" and he would have done it. Im sure its nothing personal that he did not mention your daughters achievments. I am actually pretty positive he was not trying to slight her in any way and it was just a complete oversite or he simply was not made aware or he was thinking of a hundred other things at the time. Remember he has probably 600 or 700 students he needs to be thinking of every day and each of these kids and there parents are probably as demanding as you. What a thankless job.

I realise your daughter may have been through a lot but I cannot understand how you think this principal is going out of his way to ignore or upset your daughter. Is just very implausable.

Many thanks for your advice but I hope for the sake of the Irish education system and the welfare of students that you are not a teacher...as you should know if you were a teacher it is not prudent to make assumptions...

evolving_doors

Does the school have a prefect/tutor/dean structure?
If so maybe you could try and talk to the class tutor or to the Dean of her year.

Usually they are the ones who seek out achievements within their group and put the students forward for some kind of recognition. It's unusual that they have not done this because any tutor/dean should be keen to highlight their own group at the drop of a hat.

I'd say suss them out first and highlight your concerns as regarding comments made to your daughter by the principal, you'll probably get a better feel for the situation before you approach the principal.
Maybe a good opener would be to organise a meeting to discuss the amount of time your daughter has missed and how anxious your daughter (and you) are about it. Then in the meeting bring up your concerns.

Personally i'd disagree with the comment that the ethos of the school is more about grades than personal development. Take a look at the school's mission statement on the website and i'll bet that their main selling point is personal development. Use this in your discussions with the school.

Godge

rational wrote: »

I think the title of your post is way over the top. You and your daughter may feel slighted by the actions of the Principal but from what you are saying I dont believe this person is causing "serious and unwarrented upset" to your daughter.

Your daughter maybe a teenager but she could learn a bit of perspective regarding being praised. She has done well; does she really need the validation of the principal? Maybe she could feel a little put out by not getting formal recognition but to call it serious and unwarrented upset is serious OTT

You sound upset yourself by this and I dare say your upset at the principal is feeding her upset and vica versa.

As far as him commenting on her needing to work because she missed time. I would comment him or her for this as he/she is taking a good interest in your daughter.

A principal of a school is a human being. Two years ago a teacher could have came to him and said " would you mention so and so winning such and such" and he would have done it. Im sure its nothing personal that he did not mention your daughters achievments. I am actually pretty positive he was not trying to slight her in any way and it was just a complete oversite or he simply was not made aware or he was thinking of a hundred other things at the time. Remember he has probably 600 or 700 students he needs to be thinking of every day and each of these kids and there parents are probably as demanding as you. What a thankless job.

I realise your daughter may have been through a lot but I cannot understand how you think this principal is going out of his way to ignore or upset your daughter. Is just very implausable.

really hope you are not a teacher of teenagers as you show a complete lack of understanding of their needs. Thankfully your attitude and the attitude of the principal in this contrast completely with the attitude of my own child's school when faced with something similar.

Godge

crimsonrain wrote: »

Hi

First post so sorry if I'm rambling on a bit. I'm just looking for opinions/ advice from teachers who are used to dealing with students every day. My daughter is currently attending a boarding school and I have some concerns about the principal of the school. We had some problems with the school a couple of years ago, nothing to do with bad behaviour on my daughters part, but concern by the school that my daughter was somewhat depressed etc. but those problems were ironed out at the time and I thought that the principal had moved on from our difference of opinion.

The problems this year may seem to some as somewhat trivial but my daughter is very upset by the principlas behaviour towards her and it is affecting her ability to concentrate and study which is worrying as she will sit her Leaving Cert next year.

My daughter was very ill at the beginning of the school year and has missed some time because of illness, but each time she returns to school the principal remarks to her that she has missed time, is falling behind and needs to keep an eye on her attendance. My daughter is a very conscientious student and this worries her greatly. Furthermore, she has been extremely lucky this year despite her illness, winning an essay writing competition and winning an international medal in sport. The principal always congratulates girls who do well academically or in sport at morning assembly or by calling to the classroom but she has never once mentioned my daughter's achievements. Two years ago another girl won the same essay-writing prize as my daughter and she had her photo taken for display in the school and was congratulated in front of the entire student body.

As an adult I would say she is not worth worrying about and that one should be happy with their achievements and not worry about what others think, but for teenagers it is different and my daughter is devastated by the attitude and behaviour of the principal towards her.

As I said she will sit her leaving cert next year, any advice from teachers as to how I should approach the situation or what I should do?

Thanks

Hi,

I am a parent not a teacher (though I have some experience of working in the education system).

My teenager (fifth year, same as yours) was ill this year, missed a lot of school between September and late April. Thankfully the illness is not long-term and recovery is slow but assured. One of the side-effects of the illness was tiredness and fatigue, really affected mentally, requiring counselling and medication for depression. Crossing fingers, we are on the way out of it now.

I must say though that the school have been more than helpful and nothing like your experience (it is not a private school or a voluntary secondary school which may explain). At first, there was some of the type of behaviour you experienced with teachers demanding notes for every single absence and putting huge pressure on despite my teenager struggling physically to get out of bed every morning.

We were not happy with this and took a proactive approach using the November parent-teacher meetings to explain to every teacher the illness situation, no discussion about grades, behaviour, we just talked about the illness. This was immediately beneficial - religion teacher who taught first thing Monday morning said he would accept absence for the rest of the year, recovery and exam classes came first.

The principal has also been supportive arranging extra home tuition which can be provided free by the Department of Education and Skills to students who have missed a large amount of time due to illness (surprised none of the teachers here have suggested this already). It is probably too late for your daughter this year but this should have been offered by the school and it may be possible to apply for some for next year.

To sum up, I think you met the default response in a lot of schools these days (and seen here too sometimes) but you need to try to work around that. Luckily we have a school that is much more supportive than the one you have. It is a pity that such support and understanding among teachers is not universal.

rational

Godge wrote: »

really hope you are not a teacher of teenagers as you show a complete lack of understanding of their needs. Thankfully your attitude and the attitude of the principal in this contrast completely with the attitude of my own child's school when faced with something similar.

Remember we are getting only one side of the situation here.

Also the OP said that the "principal was causing her daughter serious and unwarrented upset". I fail to see where he has actually done this.

While I sympathise with the OPs situation I disagree with her analysis of the principals behaviour. And remember we are only getting her views here.

I also dont agree that schools have a "default position" as you suggest.

Schools and principals have the good of the students as their main concern. I would say this is the case in this situation.

The OP already said that the daughter had missed a lot of time. Did she make a call to the principal to explain the absences at an early stage of these absences? If she explained the context of these absences at an early stage I just do not see how the principal would have reacted as he did with the subsequent absences. If he did react the way he did knowing the context of the absences then I would say the OP should be rightly annoyed.

You did that yourself (i.e inform the school) at an early date and the schools responce to your daughter changed immidiately.

I would say that this situation shows the importance of good communication between the school and parents but would say it is primarly the responsibility of the parent to flag these issues at an early stage with the school authorities. As was done by you in fact.

Godge

rational wrote: »

Remember we are getting only one side of the situation here.

Also the OP said that the "principal was causing her daughter serious and unwarrented upset". I fail to see where he has actually done this.

While I sympathise with the OPs situation I disagree with her analysis of the principals behaviour. And remember we are only getting her views here.

I also dont agree that schools have a "default position" as you suggest.

Schools and principals have the good of the students as their main concern. I would say this is the case in this situation.

The OP already said that the daughter had missed a lot of time. Did she make a call to the principal to explain the absences at an early stage of these absences? If she explained the context of these absences at an early stage I just do not see how the principal would have reacted as he did with the subsequent absences. If he did react the way he did knowing the context of the absences then I would say the OP should be rightly annoyed.

You did that yourself (i.e inform the school) at an early date and the schools responce to your daughter changed immidiately.

I would say that this situation shows the importance of good communication between the school and parents but would say it is primarly the responsibility of the parent to flag these issues at an early stage with the school authorities. As was done by you in fact.

I know we are only getting one side of the story and I know parent communication is important.

However, the point I am making about the default reaction is that in both cases, the pupil was treated as if malingering and the school attendance policies and the attitude of the teacher were not supportive of someone in difficulty. While in my situation it worked out well, it took a lot more effort on the parents' part than it should have.

rational

Godge wrote: »

I know we are only getting one side of the story and I know parent communication is important.

However, the point I am making about the default reaction is that in both cases, the pupil was treated as if malingering and the school attendance policies and the attitude of the teacher were not supportive of someone in difficulty. While in my situation it worked out well, it took a lot more effort on the parents' part than it should have.

If the mother in this situation had said to the principal straight away "my daughter has missed time because she is very ill and there is a history of cancer in the family and she is worried about it" do you seriously think the principal would have reacted they way he did?

If he did react in that way knowing the context he is out of line. But do you really think he was aware of the context? At any point the mother could have made him aware of the context of the absences.

The principal said to the girl that she had missed a lot of time and she should catch up on her work. A reasonable response.

The principal did not comment her on winning a prize (I hardly think this constitutes causing serious and unwarrented destress to the student in question.

What effort did it take you? You simple explained the context of the absences and the school dealt with it and were very supportive as soon as the were made aware of it. Why do you think this constitutes more effort than it should have?

crimsonrain

rational wrote: »

I think the title of your post is way over the top.

Your daughter maybe a teenager but she could learn a bit of perspective regarding being praised. She has done well; does she really need the validation of the principal? Maybe she could feel a little put out by not getting formal recognition but to call it serious and unwarrented upset is serious OTT

A principal of a school is a human being. Two years ago a teacher could have came to him and said " would you mention so and so winning such and such" and he would have done it. Im sure its nothing personal that he did not mention your daughters achievments. I am actually pretty positive he was not trying to slight her in any way and it was just a complete oversite or he simply was not made aware or he was thinking of a hundred other things at the time. Remember he has probably 600 or 700 students he needs to be thinking of every day and each of these kids and there parents are probably as demanding as you. What a thankless job.

I realise your daughter may have been through a lot but I cannot understand how you think this principal is going out of his way to ignore or upset your daughter. Is just very implausable.

Sorry for quoting so much of your original reply again rational but I thought it was necessary. As I said previously assumptions should not be made, the school has nowhere near 600/ 700 puplis and the fact that my daughter has not been congratulated seems to me a hugh indication that the prinpipal is for some reason singling her out...this is not as I stated my main concern but my daughter is upset by this behaviour on the part of the principal and I am of the opinion that this behaviour on her part is unwarranted or unnecessary. The principal had a relatively small number of students in her care, she addresses them as a group every morning and visits each year group every day. She has specifically asked girls in the school to inform her if there is anything that needs to be announced in assembly regarding prizes won, achievenments etc and my daughter has gone to her with her 'news' on both occasions which were extremely important to her but the principal has never acknowledged them despite acknowledging minor achievements by other students...

Just an aside but I don't think teaching or indeed being a principal is a thankless job...my daughter is very conscious of the people who have made a special effort with her this year and has given each and every one of them a box of chocolates as a thank you...:p

rational wrote: »

Remember we are getting only one side of the situation here.

Also the OP said that the "principal was causing her daughter serious and unwarrented upset". I fail to see where he has actually done this.

While I sympathise with the OPs situation I disagree with her analysis of the principals behaviour. And remember we are only getting her views here.

Schools and principals have the good of the students as their main concern. I would say this is the case in this situation.

The OP already said that the daughter had missed a lot of time. Did she make a call to the principal to explain the absences at an early stage of these absences? If she explained the context of these absences at an early stage I just do not see how the principal would have reacted as he did with the subsequent absences. If he did react the way he did knowing the context of the absences then I would say the OP should be rightly annoyed.

You did that yourself (i.e inform the school) at an early date and the schools responce to your daughter changed immidiately.

I would say that this situation shows the importance of good communication between the school and parents but would say it is primarly the responsibility of the parent to flag these issues at an early stage with the school authorities. As was done by you in fact.

I did state in my second post that I made the principal aware of this situation when it arose last August, to make it clearer, I phoned the school and told the principal when I spoke to her that I had an important matter concerning my daughter to discuss with her and that I wished to meet her in person. She told me she didn't have time so I told her over the phone that my daughter had 2 potentially cancerous tumours and that she would not be back at school for at least 2 weeks. We did find out that the tumours were not cancerous but because of our family history the hospital wanted to monitor my daughter closely, as the family history as regards cancer is fairly upsetting..the principal of my daughters school is absolutely aware of the situation and the depression which I spoke of in my first post concerns my daughters upset at the death of my Mum and her Grandmum at the age of 51.

She has missed time at school since and has been in hospital and when I phone the school the principal says it is not a problem but when she speaks to my daughter she upsets her by telling her that she has missed too much time to catch up on etc...

Godge best of luck to you and your teenager its so good to get your level-headed perspective, thanks for letting me know about the possibility of getting some help at home should she miss school, I was not aware of that. She is on the mend now so I hope she won't miss school next year:p

Art Teacher

Godge wrote: »

really hope you are not a teacher of teenagers as you show a complete lack of understanding of their needs. Thankfully your attitude and the attitude of the principal in this contrast completely with the attitude of my own child's school when faced with something similar.

It comes across to me that Rational has demonstrated a fair and rational attitude, both these principles are important for teaching teenagers. While I have already suggested that the parent would meet with the principal to seek support, Rationals' advice needs to be taken on board too. Most principals I know, if confronted with an allegation such as causing unwarranted upset to a student - would get very defensive, and demand evidence/facts. The whole question of support for the student would probably get overlooked, entirely !

So therefore, i would urge a meeting and as advised by Rational - be cautious about what you say.

Godge

Art Teacher wrote: »

It comes across to me that Rational has demonstrated a fair and rational attitude, both these principles are important for teaching teenagers. While I have already suggested that the parent would meet with the principal to seek support, Rationals' advice needs to be taken on board too. Most principals I know, if confronted with an allegation such as causing unwarranted upset to a student - would get very defensive, and demand evidence/facts. The whole question of support for the student would probably get overlooked, entirely !

So therefore, i would urge a meeting and as advised by Rational - be cautious about what you say.

If that is true, it is a sad reflection on the quality of principals in the Irish education system and more generally on the quality of teachers.

rational

Godge wrote: »

If that is true, it is a sad reflection on the quality of principals in the Irish education system and more generally on the quality of teachers.

All principals when met with allegations of "causing serious and unwarranted upset" to a student would firstly examine the evidence. With the evidence told by the OP would be left scratching their heads in bewilderment.

We are meant to believe that the principal after being informed that the child was sick and being informed of the fact that this sickness was possibly linked to cancer still delibratly singled out this girl in a vindictive way?


This vindictive treatment we are told is

1. Telling the student that she has missed a lot of time and needs to catch up on her work

2. Not mentioning her achievements to her school community.


Finally we are told that the above is causing "serious and unwarranted upset to a student"


Sometimes when going through trauma and stress in a family we can blow things out of proportion, read negative intentions into others behaviour that are just not there or intended, pick up signals that we are being slighted etc. Based on what I have read and the tone and hurt felt in relation to the evidence put forward. This seems the most likely senario here.


That is the issue at hand, the overall quality of principals teachers etc is probably discussed in another thread somewhere.

Art Teacher

Godge wrote: »

If that is true, it is a sad reflection on the quality of principals in the Irish education system and more generally on the quality of teachers.

If any person, including a parent raises the issue described by crimsonrain to a principal in the language it was raised, she would be shot down in my opinion. Crimsonrains daughter wouldn't have stood a chance, as far as I know. I could see Rationals' advice as a valid caution.

There is no evidence of quality related sadness that you cite in your quote. In my opinion, in this thread there is evidence of extra value in education given from teachers. I think your contribution about the extra tuition hours was good too.