Long term residency for Doctors

foxhill

Hi All
Dnt know if this is right form to post, Mods pls move this to correct place if its not.

As we all know HSE is travelling all over world looking for doctors and offering so-called "benefits" as per on hse.ie

http://hse.ie/eng/staff/nchd/benefits/

doctors shortage is worldwide phenomenon, no wonder why HSE offering below:
#have their visa and registration costs (if any) paid by the employer;
#receive 12 weeks accommodation costs to commence at the start of the programme.

But when I look at Irish Naturalisation & Immigration website it states for long term residency application for Non-Eu Doctors:-
"Time spent solely within the Trainee Specialist Division is not calculated for Long Term Residency."

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Long_Term_Residency

So if a Non-EU doctor thinking to apply for long term residency, he/she has to work 7/8 years in Irish health system(2/3 years under TSD +5years under full reg), then another 2 years just to know if he/she will given long term residency or not?!!

I understand not all docs would or wanted to stay here for ever but its more like some kinda stability in ones life.

As I see in AUS, NZ overseas docs can apply for permanent residency after two years. also there docs spouses/dependent are given 'open work visas' hence they can work freely anywhere they like, same rule in Uk.

But in Ireland spouse/dependent has to go through 'Spousal Work Permit' seems to b joke! 3 months to get this?? why?

If spouse/dependent want to apply work permit at their own, I think they to leave Ireland and apply from their home country. how long that take???


I know friend of mine who is Doc and ll b leaving Ireland, within 6 months, once complete trainee Spl post. because a doc cant buy house, can not plan future or anything while workin in Ireland. above all also more taxes and cuts on the way and dont know if ones career will make any progress!!


I m just thinking wat a waste of tax payers money to bring in docs, train them and 'forward' them to other countries!

Wondering if other non eu docs in Ireland are feeling ok with Irish health System/immigration system?

Why not Irish Gov consider Doctor profession as 'Long Term Skill Shortage' and considering offering non Eu docs early path for 'residency' as Docs shortage is not going away anytime soon.

end of the day docs are high earners, high tax payers, high spenders. will spend more if they know they can buy houses etc, it ll help Irish economy too.

Wat others docs experience here in Ireland?
Would they suggest other Non-Eu docs to come here?

regards

deepeedublin

such a shame after accessing the training and working so hard

Hal Emmerich

There's a doctor shortage??

opinion guy

You are under the mistaken impression that 2 year spent in jobs on the Trainee Specialist Division would actually involve some training.

They don't - they are pure service jobs. Though I can understand your confusion given the name.

foxhill

Well No body knows, as nothing is clear! even guys at INIS!

Overseas Medics of Ireland claims -they had meeting with INIS on 17th Jun regarding immigration issue are being faced by Non-EU doctors


3. The issue of Long Term Residency not being granted for those doctors on Trainee Spl Reg/Temporary Registration was acknowledged by the GNIB officials. We were informed that Minister Shatter was working on a bill to be tabled in the Dail . However, they were unsure the time period for it. Hence, they advised that they would try to find the time period, for the bill to be tabled by the Minister. If it is not planned to be tabled immediately, they would consider other options to see if Long Time Residence could be considered for doctors on Trainee Spl Registration.


4.They agreed to clarify that spouses of Non EU doctors can study any courses in Ireland without state funding as it has been reported that some Universities are requesting special clarification from the Minister to get permission to study ( even without state funding) when they are on Stamp 3 visa.

5. Also the GNIB officials has agreed to clarify if spouses of Non EU docs on Stamp 4 ( originally work visa authorisation when they entered first in to Ireland) need to go through the Labour Market test or not ( on par with EU workers).


More can be read at blogger homepage of Overseas Medics of Ireland.

opinion guy

foxhill I really really really don't understand why you are quoting me in your unrelated post

foxhill

I edited the post in question.
I am no longer quoting anyone!

All the best.

Star Trek

foxhill wrote: »

Well No body knows, as nothing is clear! even guys at INIS!


3. The issue of Long Term Residency not being granted for those doctors on Trainee Spl Reg/Temporary Registration was acknowledged by the GNIB officials. We were informed that Minister Shatter was working on a bill to be tabled in the Dail . However, they were unsure the time period for it. Hence, they advised that they would try to find the time period, for the bill to be tabled by the Minister. If it is not planned to be tabled immediately, they would consider other options to see if Long Time Residence could be considered for doctors on Trainee Spl Registration.

There is no bill to be tabled in Dail, INIS is only wasting time. They do not want Non EU NCHD’s to be given their rights.

It is clear act of discrimination against Non EU NCHD’s. Please email ombudsman@ombudsman.irlgov.ie and raise your concerns.

You can also contact EU Directive and inform them about your concerns: http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/contactUs.do?language=7$en


Recent discriminatory updates on the INIS website targeting NON EU NCHDs:


Applications from Doctors registered with the Irish Medical Council
The Irish Medical Council has recently restructured their register into the following divisions:
1. Trainee Specialist Division
2. General Division
3. Specialist Division.
It is understood that doctors may move from the General Division to the Trainee Specialist Division and/or Specialist Division. In such cases , the onus is on you the applicant to provide certification from the Irish Medical Council to confirm that you have the requisite 60 months reckonable residence in the General Division. Time spent solely within theTrainee Specialist Division is not calculated for Long Term Residency.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Long_Term_Residency

foxhill

There is no bill to be tabled in Dail, INIS is only wasting time. They do not want Non EU NCHD’s to be given their rights.

It is clear act of discrimination against Non EU NCHD’s. Please email ombudsman@ombudsman.irlgov.ie and raise your concerns.

well, yes its been 9 months and no news from INIS regarding NCHD residency or immigration bill, so thats mean they are not interested. Though Mr. Shatter did made many changes and reforms at INIS and he seems very committed, but NCHDs part remains unseen.
about Obudsman's intervention here what INIS website says:

If a customer who makes a complaint is not satisfied with the response they receive, they can write to the *Office of the Ombudsman, 18 Lower Leeson Street, Dublin 2. Telephone 00 353 1 6785222, e-mail ombudsman@ombudsman.irlgov.ie. Website www.ombudsman.ie
*Note: The Ombudsman's Office does not have the power to investigate immigration and naturalisation matters. However, the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) do receive correspondence from that office on such cases and responds to such correspondence giving the factual position on the matter raised.

so dont know how 'they' can do anything here. and about EU commission I think, they are more for EU's & their non-eu family members rights. I dnt see any Non-EU national applying to EU commission without the back of EU citizen, well, may be someone can try.

well, Irish immigration system is unique. very soon a Non-Eu person with 70k in bank can come to ireland and can start business, but a person earning 50-70K(though half goes to taxes!) working in Ireland labelled as 'Post grad student' by INIS, has no residency rights!! A doctor doing same job or 'post grad study as labelled by INIS', in New Zealand, AUS will be able to secure residency rights just after two years.

besides NCHDs issue I found other interesting immigration rules might not be relevant to this post. e.q. spouses of work permit holder have no employment rights. yet that spouse can claim child benefit for their child. so if Husband working on foot of WP, wife is not allowed to work and they have 4 children, his wife can still claim all child benefits for their 4 children(only mother can claim child benefit not father, same mother is not allowed to work!!!) and tax credits, tax breaks;; not to mention same couple pays less tax, they have married couple tax credits, yet wife cannot work, still she can claim tax credits!!!

more interestingly, if same couple have a baby born just after 36 months here, baby gets Irish passport and spouse who has previously no rights to work or anything, gets automatically everything just on the day their baby is born!!!(thanks to zimbrano case).
I know atleast two people who could not get a single job while on spousal visa but after 'Zimbrano' judgement, they got residency rights and now both are doing good jobs. Happy Days!
I think its just bizarre situation. justice dept rewarding ppls to conceive a baby just 27 months in the state.
I m not against why child gets Irish Citizenship or claiming all Non Eu nationals do this trick. It is out there. hence why not justice Dept allow spouses to work freely if one want to work. why they have to apply for separate spousal Work permit, which is 'catch 22' for many. As employers want to see work permit before they offer a job and Dept of Work Permit want to see job offer to issue a work permit.

Employer will not offer a job to non-national without seeing 'Work Permit' or 'right to work' and Dept of Work Permit will not issue work permit without seeing Job offer!!! this practice seems very outdated and in the current situation where jobs are more of temporary nature, probably 3- 6 months duration or less. may be someone want to work only part time, for shorter periods, flexible hours, current SWP scheme does not allow that. as you have to fill on the application form, exactly hours, exactly weakly salary, yearly salary and loadza other information, which have no purpose.

I think they should introduce some kinda 'Work Licence' scheme for spouses, where if spouse/dependent want to work, (not all want to work), given he/she is eligible to apply for Spousal Work Permit, applies for 'work licence' to INIS or dept of WP, pays a fee, say 1000Euro for one year and is allowed to work for duration of original Work Permit holder's visa or one year. They can keep record of employment where that person working or if any misuse(cnt think of any) happened and thus renew the licence accordingly. That way govt will be able to get extra revenue, reduce work load in concerned depts and couple might not able to think about baby cos both ll be working!!!
and many then would not be bother about applying for naturalization as it will not make any difference to their lives, once both will be working.


and more bizarre:: what happens if a spouse stays unemployed for five years, as intended by INIS i.e. sitting at home, not allowed to work. Stamp 3 is seen perfectly fit for applying Irish Naturalization. No problem if that person can not speak English or did not integrate into Irish society or did NOT add anything valuable to Irish economy!! INIS rewards that person with 'long term residence'. and

If you are applying for Long Term Residency as a Spouse/Dependant, please note that, should your application be successful, you will be granted Long Term Residency on Stamp 3 (Dependant stamp) conditions for 5 years. However you are not released from work permit conditions.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Long_Term_Residency

so after getting long term residency one applies for naturalization and then
here he/she becomes new Irish Citizen!!
Having said that...this is Ireland!

Star Trek

I disagree with you Foxhill, Contacting Ombudsman's Office does make a difference, And contacting EU directive also makes difference. I have contacted Ombudsman's Office on various occasions and they take these types of discriminatory offences very seriously.

Star Trek

Are you a Non EU Doctor in Ireland

The Doctor Migration Project is conducting research into the experiences of non-EU doctors in Ireland. We are looking to talk to doctors, particularly NCHDs and GPs, from all non-EU nationalities, who are in Ireland. We would like to ask you about:

• Your experiences of migration
• Your experiences of living & working here
• Your plans for the future


Meetings will be scheduled at a time and a place that suit you. To take part in the research or for more information, contact 086 3179836 or email: nhumphries@rcsi.ie / bidwellp@tcd.ie The Doctor Migration Project is a collaboration between RCSI & TCD.

http://www.imt.ie/jobs/2012/02/are-you-a-non-eu-doctor-in-ireland.html