Should We Really Let These Serbs Into The EU?

Nijmegen

From the Indo:

According to opinion polls over 50 per cent of the Serbian people oppose Mladic's extradition to The Hague while over 78 per cent wouldn't have given away his hideout if they had known it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13591882

Ratko Mladic murdered 7,500 men in Srebrenica, and was involved in killing up to 10,000 others in the siege of Sarajevo. He is wanted for crimes on a par with any Nazi tried in Nuremburg, and we have thousands of Serbs coming out to march in protest at his arrest.

Sunday's protests saw some 7,000 supporters of Gen Mladic rallying in central Belgrade to hear speeches from nationalist politicians and decry Mr Mladic's arrest.

"Co-operation with The Hague tribunal represents treason," said Lidija Vukicevic of the Serbian Radical Party.

"This is a protest against the shameful arrest of the Serbian hero."

Now my question is, do we want to let these people into the EU? Would we be happy to be in the union with a Germany that was unrepentant for its recent sins?

Denerick

The answer is yes, eventually. Not for a while though, the Balkan conflict is still a running sore in the former Yugoslavia and it will take at least one generation for the trogolydte nationalists to die off. Maybe then Serbia can be integrated to a Europe that thinks that people like Mladic deserve a lifetime behind bars for such evil acts.

LK_Dave

The Serbs are the most 4ucked over people in Europe but because they are a Christian people they get no help. Saying that I hope they never get fooled into joining the EU. I hope the EU falls apart. The Serbs should look to Russia.

Nijmegen

Denerick wrote: »

The answer is yes, eventually. Not for a while though, the Balkan conflict is still a running sore in the former Yugoslavia and it will take at least one generation for the trogolydte nationalists to die off. Maybe then Serbia can be integrated to a Europe that thinks that people like Mladic deserve a lifetime behind bars for such evil acts.

From my history lessons, I don't recall widespread support for the Holocaust in Germany a decade and a half after the war.

They're clearly too immature to be allowed into the EU. I don't fancy letting bigots who support genocide to come and live and work in my country.

Denerick

Nijmegen wrote: »

From my history lessons, I don't recall widespread support for the Holocaust in Germany a decade and a half after the war.

They're clearly too immature to be allowed into the EU. I don't fancy letting bigots who support genocide to come and live and work in my country.

How can you possibly say that about the Germans? You can't speak for every one of them, just like we can't speak for every Serb now. There was a residual support for Nazi-ism long into the 60s, 70s and 80s (And even now to some small extent) What, did you think Hitler came to power via democratic means by some act of mass hallucination? He won power through the ballot box.

Nijmegen

Denerick wrote: »

How can you possibly say that about the Germans? You can't speak for every one of them, just like we can't speak for every Serb now. There was a residual support for Nazi-ism long into the 60s, 70s and 80s (And even now to some small extent) What, did you think Hitler came to power via democratic means by some act of mass hallucination? He won power through the ballot box.

Postwar West Germany handed down non-appealable sentences to six and a half thousand people between 1945 and 1983. Most of the major protests in Germany at the time surrounded people who thought the government wasn't doing enough to prosecute former Nazi's.

In Serbia opinion polling cited by the Indo tells us that 50% of Serbians support this murderer, and 78% wouldn't have turned him in, with thousands protesting his arrest.

There is a major difference, and the Serbs are proving themselves to be rather immature and not suitable for entry into a club of civilized nations if this is their clear, brazen attitude to murder, genocide, rape and pillage.

miso111

Nijmegen wrote: »

Postwar West Germany handed down non-appealable sentences to six and a half thousand people between 1945 and 1983. Most of the major protests in Germany at the time surrounded people who thought the government wasn't doing enough to prosecute former Nazi's.

In Serbia opinion polling cited by the Indo tells us that 50% of Serbians support this murderer, and 78% wouldn't have turned him in, with thousands protesting his arrest.

There is a major difference, and the Serbs are proving themselves to be rather immature and not suitable for entry into a club of civilized nations if this is their clear, brazen attitude to murder, genocide, rape and pillage.

Would you be so kind and give us your opinion about Croatia. Should they be allowed into EU? If you remember, about a month ago there were massive protests against Gotovina verdict. Just a quick reminder, Ante Gotovina, convicted for war crimes in Croatia, was a general of Croatian Army.

Also, at the support meetings there were more people in Zagreb (Croatia), around 30 000, supporting Gotovina, a convicted war criminal
http://www.europeanforum.net/news/1134/croatian_protests_against_gotovina_markac_verdict


than in Belgrade (Serbia) (around 7500), supporting Mladic. Bear in mind that Belgrade is roughly twice the size of Zagreb.

What can we conclude from that?

So again, should "these people" (Croatia), to use your words, be allowed into the EU?

Nijmegen

miso111 wrote: »

Would you be so kind and give us your opinion about Croatia. Should they be allowed into EU? If you remember, about a month ago there were massive protests against Gotovina verdict. Just a quick reminder, Ante Gotovina, convicted for war crimes in Croatia, was a general of Croatian Army.

Also, at the support meetings there were more people in Zagreb (Croatia), around 30 000, supporting Gotovina, a convicted war criminal
http://www.europeanforum.net/news/1134/croatian_protests_against_gotovina_markac_verdict


than in Belgrade (Serbia) (around 7500), supporting Mladic. Bear in mind that Belgrade is roughly twice the size of Zagreb.

What can we conclude from that?

So again, should "these people" (Croatia), to use your words, be allowed into the EU?

I would agree that any country in which there is substantial support for war criminals, that they should not be allowed into the EU.

miso111

Nijmegen wrote: »

I would agree that any country in which there is substantial support for war criminals, that they should not be allowed into the EU.

Good man yourself, that sounds much better.

But why didn't you open similar topic about Croats? After all, they seems to be bigger war criminals supporters, according to above calculations.

McDave

I really have doubts about the suitability of Serbia's candidacy for a long time to come. The Mladic 'surrender' is IMO a bit of a stunt. Serbia (in common with most Balkan states) has a lot to demonstrate before it can get in the door. It's not impossible. But based on experiences with Romania and Bulgaria, a lot of internal problems need to be sorted out before borders are opened. Perhaps Serbia can exceed expectations in time. But it's their case to prove.

Scofflaw

miso111 wrote: »

Good man yourself, that sounds much better.

But why didn't you open similar topic about Croats? After all, they seems to be bigger war criminals supporters, according to above calculations.

Presumably because Serbia is the one in the news right now calling for a faster track to EU entry on foot of the arrest of Mladic. That's the way discussion forums tend to work.

moderately,
Scofflaw

meglome

LK_Dave wrote: »

The Serbs are the most 4ucked over people in Europe but because they are a Christian people they get no help. Saying that I hope they never get fooled into joining the EU. I hope the EU falls apart. The Serbs should look to Russia.

Not sure why I'm replying to this nonsense but anyhow...

So did Serb nationalists start wars with their neighbours and then kill/ethnically cleanse many thousands of people? They certainly did it's safe to say. They've shown little, if any, remorse for this so why would any right thinking person support them?

I suppose you're going to tell me why the EU would be so bad for them?

patneve2

A generational problem I think. When I went to Serbia two years ago I met and got talking to many teenagers. They all spoke english (better than most young adults in non english speaking EU countries) and were all very liberal thinking. I remember one lad talking about his visit to Dublin and saying how the buses never ran on time:D
Tensions are still high in the balkans, especially from an ethnic point of view. So for the moment I would say no to Serbia joining the EU.

steelcityblues

The more interesting question: how will ordinary Serbs benefit in the long run, by being an EU member state?

miso111

steelcityblues wrote: »

The more interesting question: how will ordinary Serbs benefit in the long run, by being an EU member state?

Like any other East European nation before them (better transparency, better rule of law, less corruption, access to EU development funds, FDI, access to EU markets ...).

Not sure how much you know about Serbia but economy there is in ruins at the moment, much of that thanks to a handful of very rich "businessmen" who managed to infiltrate almost all political parties through money and connections. It is in their interest NOT to enter the EU, because that way it is easier for them to keep sucking the country dry...

steelcityblues

miso111 wrote: »

Like any other East European nation before them (better transparency, better rule of law, less corruption, access to EU development funds, FDI, access to EU markets ...).

Not sure how much you know about Serbia but economy there is in ruins at the moment, much of that thanks to a handful of very rich "businessmen" who managed to infiltrate almost all political parties through money and connections. It is in their interest NOT to enter the EU, because that way it is easier for them to keep sucking the country dry...

Better rule of law? I thought they were meant to be a sovereign nation.

Better transparency: as long as they don't force a series of referendums on them, I suppose. :rolleyes:

Less corruption; EU really can't prevent from this happening, though they could rightly prosecute people.

Access to the markets is a two way street. Nice for Joe citizen when there isn't a worldwide crisis. otherwise, be prepared to be forced into debt.

Amberman

Denerick wrote: »

The answer is yes, eventually. Not for a while though, the Balkan conflict is still a running sore in the former Yugoslavia and it will take at least one generation for the trogolydte nationalists to die off. Maybe then Serbia can be integrated to a Europe that thinks that people like Mladic deserve a lifetime behind bars for such evil acts.

You think there will still be a European bloc for them to join in a generation? Based on what precisely?

meglome

Amberman wrote: »

You think there will still be a European bloc for them to join in a generation? Based on what precisely?

It's been around now since 1957 and we've been in since 1973 so I wouldn't be so quick to suggest they won't in another 50 years.

Amberman

Didn't work out too well for the USSR, that thinking...or any other empire I can think of. Roman, British....etc. Most were afflicted with large structural and debt issues before their demise.

Sound familiar yet?

meglome

Amberman wrote: »

Didn't work out too well for the USSR, that thinking...or any other empire I can think of. Roman, British....etc. Most were afflicted with large structural and debt issues before their demise.

Sound familiar yet?

Yes that's right the USSR who asked really nicely for everyone to join. I don't know what to even say to the nonsense comparisons you made.

The Scientician

Amberman wrote: »

Didn't work out too well for the USSR, that thinking...or any other empire I can think of. Roman, British....etc. Most were afflicted with large structural and debt issues before their demise.

Sound familiar yet?

If you think the European Union as currently configured is an empire I can only politely suggest that you don't know what an empire is.

Amberman

Got it...history is an accurate guide, the Eurozone isn't soon to blow sky high due to its structural and debt issues and it isn't a centrally planned quasi-Empire with arguably one of the most manipulated currencies in existence today.

Wheres my popcorn? I'll enjoy watching this non-empire lurch hilariously to its next, perhaps fatal crisis when the banking crisis reappears from the carpet under which it was recently swept and Germany says NEIN to more bailouts.

The Scientician

Amberman wrote: »

Got it...history is an accurate guide, the Eurozone isn't soon to blow sky high due to its structural and debt issues and it isn't a centrally planned quasi-Empire with arguably one of the most manipulated currencies in existence today.

Wheres my popcorn? I'll enjoy watching this non-empire lurch hilariously to its next, perhaps fatal crisis when the banking crisis reappears from the carpet under which it was recently swept and Germany says NEIN to more bailouts.

Neither of us has a crystal ball, however, if you predict the demise of the European Union based on previous political entities that it shares very few characteristics with, then I can only tell you that if it does fail, you were right, but for the wrong reasons more than likely.

Bear in mind too if you wish to categorise the EU as an empire that the British Empire was in some way, shape, or form extant for about 400 years, and the Roman Empire lasted similarly for closer to 1500 years.

Also, why do you gloat about the potential misfortune of millions of people?

Amberman

Actually, I do have a crystal ball...see it at the link below.

http://www.google.com/publicdata/directory

It's called a snapshot of sovereign debt loads. You can check it out in google datasets. Not pretty reading up to the end of 2010.

You could argue that the European project is out of runway at this point and it's Eurobonds or bust...which as has already been pointed out by several senior members of the Bundestag as recently as this week, would trigger a collapse in the German coalition.

Whats about to happen isn't unpredictable at all. A European banking crisis is already well underway. See the recent Swiss franc price action and the ban on short selling (which didn't work in 2008 for long and won't work again). The central planners clearly have no idea what they are doing. Most commentors agree on this. They've had to break their own rules, make policy on the hoof and stunningly, one even said that when things get really bad, you have to lie!

What surprises me is that anyone would want to be a part of that. Ireland is getting crucified. I agree with the IMF who said that the Irish appeared to have Stockholm syndrome.

I don't consider the following as unfortunate:

A) Weak countries getting free after being trapped in a currency prison with ill-fitting interest rates that created huge misallocations of capital and then being subjected to debt servitude and huge austerity measures to save politically connected banks...at precisely the same time as they need growth.

Please show me ONE country where austerity has produced growth. I can show you dozens where it hasn't...and some compelling evidence that the purpose of central planners austerity is to further impoverish the country and create fire-sale situations in which large corporations can take productive assets from the country at rock bottom prices.

Strong countries (Germany) being asked to lower their standard of living to support weak countries. This creates disincentives for both the donor and the recipient. This point matters less though, because Merkel knows she cant make the Germans stand behind the Euro to the full extend that it must if it is to survive in it's current point. This weeks statement, long on rhetoric and short tangibles, proved that.

As for your other points, I said before, history isn't a good guide is todays ultra fast world as this crisis has proven.

The short term pain will be intense, but we'll get through...look to Iceland for hope.

Scofflaw

Amberman, you already have a thread on your whole zerohedge/end of world/euro-dump etc. Please wait for responses on that thread by people interested in that subject - this thread is about Serbia, not about your crystal balls.

moderately,
Scofflaw