Does not accept Liability for any Damages

Shades799

Hi,

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, I thought I am a consuming a service from Wyse so it made sense to me to have it here.

I purchased a 900e bike with the bike to work scheme 5 weeks ago. For the past 4 and a half weeks I've been keeping the bike in my apartment because I didn't want to risk leaving it locked down in the underground car-park even though there were numerous signs around the building saying I would receive a fine.

On Wednesday last, the cleaner in the building saw me bring my bike into the apartments and told me he was going to report me if I didn't bring my bike down. So I did and locked it to the bike railing provided in our "secure" underground car-park.

I did this Wednesday, Thursday and Friday evening. This morning I went down stairs to get my bike to go to work and saw that it was stolen. Wyse say they don't have any cameras pointing at the bike rack, (after talking to the Garda, I was informed they don't have any camera's down there at all and the signs are meant to scare people off).

The company has one of those "Wyse Management services does not accept any responsibility for any loss or damage to any vehicle parked in this underground car park"

I remember seeing before that these signs are not the be-all and end-all and that they still do have some responsibilities so I have 3 questions.

1) They forced me to put my bike down there, does that infer liability on them?
2) Considering they have no security cameras down there and they forced me to put my bike down there, do they in fact have liability?
3) The sign says "vehicle" does my bike count as a vehicle

Any help\advice is much appreciated; I am really gutted about my brand new bike being stolen, especially under these circumstances.

godtabh

i'd say thats more of a legal issue than consumer!

Shades799

Can I move it or do I have to wait for a Mod to?

Paulw

Shades799 wrote: »

1) They forced me to put my bike down there, does that infer liability on them?
2) Considering they have no security cameras down there and they forced me to put my bike down there, do they in fact have liability?
3) The sign says "vehicle" does my bike count as a vehicle

Any help\advice is much appreciated; I am really gutted about my brand new bike being stolen, especially under these circumstances.

1) - No, they have no legal liability
2) - No, they have no legal liability. There is no obligation on them to put CCTV on to the bikes. Even if they had CCTV, they still have no liability. Your recourse for theft would be against only the person who stole your bike.
3) - It doesn't matter at all.

Hopefully you put your bike on your home insurance. Get a Garda report on the theft, and then claim the insurance. That's about all you can do.

Sorry.

Cabaal

Sorry to hear about your bike but why should they accept liability?

Did you lock your bike properly, I mean PROPERLY with a very good lock or even locks, what make and model of lock did you use?

You seem to want them to accept liability but yet I'd imagine you wouldn't be too quick to accept liability for breaking the rules regarding bringing your bike into your apartment.

Even if they did have CCTV it would do nothing to actually stop somebody stealing your bike, a CCTV camera is a deterrent only and in no way stops any sort of thief. In sort it likely would not made any sort of difference;

As for your request on the meaning of vehicle:

ve·hi·cle
   [vee-i-kuhl or, sometimes, vee-hi-] Show IPA
–noun
1.
any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport: a motor vehicle; space vehicles.
2.
a conveyance moving on wheels, runners, tracks, or the like, as a cart, sled, automobile, or tractor.

seamus

The sign is actually irrelevant. It cannot absolve them of any legal duties in respect to anyone.

However, at the same time unless there is an agreement with the management company to provide secure bike parking facilities (as opposed to just somewhere to park your bike), then they can't realy carry any liability. In order for the company to carry liabilty, they need to have done something wrong or failed in some duty of care.

It would be worth checking out how the thieves got into the car park in the first place. If the gate was faulty or otherwise the security measures in the car park were not working correctly, then you could argue that they are partially at fault. However if the theives slunk in when the gate was open or hopped a fence, that's not the management company's fault.

The problem with security and liability is that there is no such thing as a completely secure facility. Even if the car park is described as "secure", that doesn't mean that the Mgmt Co. are liable for all breaches of security, it simply means that they have a duty to ensure that the security equipment in place, functions as it is supposed to. If the security measures are broken or bypassed, then the mgmt co aren't liable.

Unfortunately your best hope is to follow the Garda up with enquiries and do search about stolen bikes in Dublin (assuming that's where you are). Chances are they know who did this and you might get lucky. By all accounts, many stolen bikes in Dublin all tend to end up in one of small number of places to be sold on.

I'd advise you to put a complaint in with the management company anyway mentioning that if you hadn't been told to put your bike downstairs, it wouldn't have been stolen. If you replace the bike, just bring it up to your apartment and tell the cleaners where to go. Just carry the bike so you're not trailing dirt and grease into the block.

This is generally a big problem in underground car parks across the country. Scrotes wander in, in the dead of night, take stock of what's there and then arrive back the following evening to smash windows or break locks or whatever it is they have to do.

techdiver

The lesson is, never follow these stupid rules laid down by idiots who manage these complexes.

What bloody business or harm is it to them if you keep your bike in your apartment or not?

slimjimmc

techdiver wrote: »

The lesson is, never follow these stupid rules laid down by idiots who manage these complexes.

What bloody business or harm is it to them if you keep your bike in your apartment or not?

The lesson is, don't sign contracts if you don't agree with the terms

dudara

Let's give this a whirl in Legal Discussion

dudara

Cabaal

techdiver wrote: »

What bloody business or harm is it to them if you keep your bike in your apartment or not?

What business is it of theirs?
Well lets see its their property, they pay for it to be maintained and painted etc. They want the place kept with the min amount of work between renting it out to a new person.

What harm?
Alot of idiots try to bring in bikes that are covered in dirt and mud with no regard for walls, carpets etc. As they don't give a crap this means more damage to walls and carpet then would have happened if no bikes were brought in which means more work and more money spent.

Bottom line, if you don't like these type of rules then don't agree to stay in such complexes.

techdiver

Cabaal wrote: »

What business is it of theirs?
Well lets see its their property, they pay for it to be maintained and painted etc. They want the place kept with the min amount of work between renting it out to a new person.

1) Any damage done will be covered by a rental deposit.

Cabaal wrote: »

What harm?
Alot of idiots try to bring in bikes that are covered in dirt and mud with no regard for walls, carpets etc. As they don't give a crap this means more damage to walls and carpet then would have happened if no bikes were brought in which means more work and more money spent.

2) Any damage done will be covered by a rental deposit.

What's next? You can't wear shoes into the apartment because some people tend not to wipe their feet? Don't cook food, because it ruins the kitchen? Only permit the use of the shower once per week to avoid unnecessary water damage?

listermint

I would of told the cleaner to sling one. Ive carried my bike in before 'notice carry' and I have more respect for the complex than half of the residents. They should be more concerend with the ridiculous racist slogans that end up in the lift area every 3 weeks, than well mannered residents.

No offense to my wonderful polish and lithuanina neighbours. But they should ejject the neo nazi skinhead polish idiots from the complex whom love to sing racist chants and march with their arms outstretched for laughs every time they get pissed drunk.

Reeks of picking on the meek. Guaranteed the cleaner wouldnt say boo to these lads.

montane

Ive had two bikes stolen in Dublin.

As result, I always bring my bike into my place. No way would I leave it in an underground car park where anyone can easily gain access by following a car in etc. It's actually probably far less secure down there where there is little movement of people especially at night than locked somewhere in town.

Cabaal

techdiver wrote: »

1) Any damage done will be covered by a rental deposit.

You can be damn sure the OP would be here complaining if they attempted to keep his deposit for tyre marks on the walls.

What's next? You can't wear shoes into the apartment because some people tend not to wipe their feet? Don't cook food, because it ruins the kitchen? Only permit the use of the shower once per week to avoid unnecessary water damage?

The rule that applys is no bikes in the apartment so anything else you want to rant about is pointless.

If the OP didn't like this rule then he should never have agreed to the agreement, he did and as such he had to put the bike elsewhere.

The very fact the bike got stolen from that otherplace is the topic at hand

Shades799

Thanks for the advice\points folks. I suppose the bit that makes me angry and feel like I should get some sort of recourse from the management company is that I have been keeping my bike in the appartment for 4 and a half weeks with no damage and no negative affects to anyone else in the appartment and then after 3 nights of having it in the "secure" underground car-park, (the signs in the building mention the word "secure"), it gets stolen.

Agreed that it's probably somewhere in the agreement that I signed but as the other poster said, if my bike had caused any insignificant damage such as paint work then my deposit would have had to be used to repaint so no issue there.

I could have told the cleaner to feck off but then I get the fine and probably repeated fines every time I was caught. I just feel like I was forced to put my bike in their care and they didn't care for it.

blueythebear

Shades799 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice\points folks. I suppose the bit that makes me angry and feel like I should get some sort of recourse from the management company is that I have been keeping my bike in the appartment for 4 and a half weeks with no damage and no negative affects to anyone else in the appartment and then after 3 nights of having it in the "secure" underground car-park, (the signs in the building mention the word "secure"), it gets stolen.

Agreed that it's probably somewhere in the agreement that I signed but as the other poster said, if my bike had caused any insignificant damage such as paint work then my deposit would have had to be used to repaint so no issue there.

I could have told the cleaner to feck off but then I get the fine and probably repeated fines every time I was caught. I just feel like I was forced to put my bike in their care and they didn't care for it.

They didn't force you to put your bike in their care. You signed a contract that (presumably) included a clause that bikes would have to be stored in the underground carpark. Umfortunately, you signed up to that agreement.

I would hazard a guess that your bike was not locked with a proper quality lock(s) although it should also be noted that with enough time and the right tools any bicycle lock can be defeated.

Your deposit cannot be used to pay for any damage to the common areas. The management company is responsible for these and your deposit is held by your landlord (not the Management company) for potential damage to the apartment you're renting.

Unfortunately it would appear that you don't really have any recourse against the management company in this scenario. This is of course subject to the proviso that nobody here has all of the facts and that there may be more to it than what has been described.

Shades799

blueythebear wrote: »

I would hazard a guess that your bike was not locked with a proper quality lock(s) although it should also be noted that with enough time and the right tools any bicycle lock can be defeated.

It was a Level 8 strength lock with the highest in the shop being a level 11. I don't know if that counts as "proper quality" but I would have considered it to be. The other points are duly noted.

littlemac1980

Shades799 wrote: »

It was a Level 8 strength lock with the highest in the shop being a level 11. I don't know if that counts as "proper quality" but I would have considered it to be. The other points are duly noted.

I'd disagree with most of the responses posted here and suggest that you're response seems more sensible.

First, no one here (including you it seems) knows what the terms of your contract with the management company are. Yet everyone is assuming they do. Check these out, see if you were prohibited in the contract from keeping the bike in your apartment.

Also, check whether you or your landlord had a contract with the management company.

The particular sign you refer cannot in my opinion be an absolute indemnity to every circumstance. For instance if the Management company were to deliberately or recklessly damage your vehicle, surely they could not then rely on the sign as a defence to liability for that damage.

Whether you were 'forced' to place your bike there or not is not entirely clear, you could have made other less convenient arrangements.

I'd suggest keeping the pressure on them, seeing how they respond, and then deciding if you want to take matters further, i.e, by involving a solicitor. Your obvious difficulty is that the bike is worth €900 and the costs of challenging the Management company's stance may end up being a multiple of that, should you fail to recover in a court.

The_Snapper

Shades799 wrote: »

On Wednesday last, the cleaner in the building saw me bring my bike into the apartments and told me he was going to report me if I didn't bring my bike down. So I did and locked it to the bike railing provided in our "secure" underground car-park.

I did this Wednesday, Thursday and Friday evening. This morning I went down stairs to get my bike to go to work and saw that it was stolen.

Has there been many other thefts of bicycles in that area, recent or not?

I just find it a bit strange that the "cleaner" spots it, threatens to report you unless you put the bike down below, and then two days later, your bike is stolen. Do you have any reason to suspect the cleaner?

blueythebear

littlemac1980 wrote: »

I'd disagree with most of the responses posted here and suggest that you're response seems more sensible.

First, no one here (including you it seems) knows what the terms of your contract with the management company are. Yet everyone is assuming they do. Check these out, see if you were prohibited in the contract from keeping the bike in your apartment.

Also, check whether you or your landlord had a contract with the management company.

The particular sign you refer cannot in my opinion be an absolute indemnity to every circumstance. For instance if the Management company were to deliberately or recklessly damage your vehicle, surely they could not then rely on the sign as a defence to liability for that damage.

Whether you were 'forced' to place your bike there or not is not entirely clear, you could have made other less convenient arrangements.

I'd suggest keeping the pressure on them, seeing how they respond, and then deciding if you want to take matters further, i.e, by involving a solicitor. Your obvious difficulty is that the bike is worth €900 and the costs of challenging the Management company's stance may end up being a multiple of that, should you fail to recover in a court.

First off, as has been said before, if there is a clause in your lease requiring the bike to be in the car park, you have agreed to that and signed up to it. The only potential recourse you would have then is to show negligence on the part of the management company. There would have to be something that the management company did or allowed happen that was negligent that facilitated the theft of your bike. There would be most likely a degree of contributory negligence on your part anyway in the circumstances.

If there is no such clause then there was nothing compelling you to put the bike in and the Management Company owe you no duty of care. You volunteered to put your bike there and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

On a more general point, I would personally have waited for something in writing from the Management Company. I imagine that there was probably an element of a conflict with the cleaner that made it a difficult situation for you but personally I would have kept going and brought the bike up.


To be honest, for the cost of the bike and the time and effort it would take, it's probably not worth pursuing legally. By all means though, as has been said by little mac, write them some snotty letters and kick up a stink and see what happens.

Paulw

the groutch wrote: »

I stand to be corrected, but afaik the management company have no right to tell you not to keep a bike in your apartment
the apartment itself is owned by the landlord, so you can keep whatever you want in it once the landlord doesnt complain

Incorrect. The management company own the apartment. The landlord only has a 999 year Lease (or similar). The tenant only has exclusive use of the property.

So, the Lease contract, which the landlord signed upon purchase of the property is bound by all clauses in the contract, which may (probably does) include a clause about bike storage. It's a common clause in most developments.

The tenant is the also bound by these clauses, and should be given a list of these rules and clauses when signing their own lease.

jd

The landlord has a leasehold on the apartment, and would be bound by the terms of the lease. He would have agreed to obey any house rules set out by the management company (btw he is a member of the management company). So if the owners of the complex (the management company) say no bikes inside, he (and his tenant/s) is bound by it.

the groutch

the management company don't own the apartment you're renting, so they can't tell you not to keep your bike in it

OP you should follow this up with the management company, on the basis that the cleaner used misleading threats to coerce/bully you into storing it downstairs.

Paulw

the groutch wrote: »

the management company don't own the apartment you're renting, so they can't tell you not to keep your bike in it

You clearly don't know about managed developments. The management company DO OWN the apartment. They can and do make rules that can be enforced, by court action, if necessary.

There are many websites with info about living in managed developments. Try reading some.

the groutch

Paulw wrote: »

Incorrect. The management company own the apartment.

so the developer who the landlord "999 year leased" the apartment off suddenly doesnt own it any more?
granted the management company is often owned by the developer, but this isnt always the case

jd

the groutch wrote: »

so the developer who the landlord "999 year leased" the apartment off suddenly doesnt own it any more?
granted the management company is often owned by the developer, but this isnt always the case

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The management company (made up of the apartment owners) own the complex.

the groutch

jd wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The management company (made up of the apartment owners) own the complex.

I'm not sure what you're saying either, sounds like you're mixing up a management company with a residents committee

jd

the groutch wrote: »

I'm not sure what you're saying either, sounds like you're mixing up a management company with a residents committee

Nope. Apartments "owners" have a leasehold on their apartment. But as members of the management company they own the complex.

There are situations where the developer hasn't handed over control of the complex to the owners, but they were given 6 months to transfer ownership from the commencement of the MULTI-UNIT DEVELOPMENTS ACT 2011


http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Multi_Unit_Act

the groutch

okay, I think I've gotten my head around all this now, and I think I've been accidentally using the term mangement company, when referring to the managing AGENT, ie. WYSE

(walks off with tail between his legs)