Rules question (unlikely to happen, but just wondering if it's legal)

eigrod

Just on the interpretation of the knock-on rule....would it be legal for a player to throw the ball forward, over the head of an oncoming opponent, run around said opponent and catch it at the far side of opponent without the ball touching the opponent or the ground ?

Sorry if this is an off the wall question, but it's just something that came into my head recently.

durkadurka

Nope! It can't travel forward from your hands relative to the speed you are running at.

Yes, that is a sh1t way of explaining it....

I'll get back in me box

eigrod

durkadurka wrote: »

Nope! It can't travel forward from your hands relative to the speed you are running at.

Yes, that is a sh1t way of explaining it....

I'll get back in me box

Thanks. I'm assuming it's the deliberate element that makes it illegal, as opposed to a fumble which is permitted if it doesn't touch an opponent or the ground before re-gaining it in hand.

GerM

eigrod wrote: »

Just on the interpretation of the knock-on rule....would it be legal for a player to throw the ball forward, over the head of an oncoming opponent, run around said opponent and catch it at the far side of opponent without the ball touching the opponent or the ground ?

Sorry if this is an off the wall question, but it's just something that came into my head recently.

Pretty sure it would constitute a deliberate throw forward which is a penalty to the opposing team. I recall back in the 90s an Irish winger juggling the ball past a defender but it wasn't adjudged to have been a throw forward as he didn't have control of it. Think it was Niall Woods but not sure.

Almaviva

durkadurka wrote: »

Nope! It can't travel forward from your hands relative to the speed you are running at.

Yes, that is a sh1t way of explaining it....

I'll get back in me box

But if he catches it, then the ball hasnt travelled forward relative to his hands - ball and hands have travelled the same distance forward from the moment he threw it.

durkadurka

Almaviva wrote: »

But if he catches it, then the ball hasnt travelled forward relative to his hands - ball and hands have travelled the same distance forward from the moment he threw it.

Oh bollocks... Says he floundering . I refer you to germ above

Dr.Evil

It's a strange one, I remember Leamy slapping the ball forward off a lineout, catching it, grounding it, and getting the try against England. Which I would of thought illegal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV97mxR6BuA

First try on that link..

durkadurka

I'd like to see that. Was it a charge down?

Edit : wasnt he still in the act of controlling it?

johnnysmack

Dr.Evil wrote: »

It's a strange one, I remember Leamy slapping the ball forward off a lineout, catching it, grounding it, and getting the try against England. Which I would of thought illegal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV97mxR6BuA

First try on that link..

That wasnt a slap, he juggled it to gain control of the ball, then grounded it. Nothing wrong with what he did.

fasttalkerchat

By the time he catches it the ball will have travelled 0 metres relative to the thrower but at some point during the journey it will have travelled forwards relative to the player.

Not a rugby fan so don't know the exact rule...

Peter B

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

What about this? Should this have been allowed?

Is it a knock on? Crossing?

Not sure myself....

durkadurka

No that falls under the genius law

eigrod

That O' Driscoll one is very close to what I had in mind in my OP.

durkadurka

He didn't throw it forward though

RMD

Peter B wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

What about this? Should this have been allowed?

Is it a knock on? Crossing?

Not sure myself....

AFAIK they actually rewrote the rule after that incident to make it clearer. I'm not sure how the exact wording is put, but basically OP if a player isn't in full control of the ball (Ie fumbling it but regains control before conceding a knock on) it will be ok, but in the case you mentioned where the player is in full control of the ball and throws it over the head of an opponent, that is a penalty. The ref wont take kindly to it either as it's a deliberate breaking of the rules.

funky penguin

If only he had scored a try from that......

phog

durkadurka wrote: »

He didn't throw it forward though

How di he manage to throw the ball from his side of the halfway line and catch it as he stood on the line if it didn't go forward?

GerM

phog wrote: »

How di he manage to throw the ball from his side of the halfway line and catch it as he stood on the line if it didn't go forward?

Momentum. It wasn't a forward action. A very large number of passes travel forward but they are not deemed forward as they don't go forward relative to the players.

totallegend

IRB Law 12:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes
forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the
ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or

another player before the original player can catch it.

I would read this to mean that it's only a knock-on if you lose possession, i.e. if it hits the ground or another player, so in theory, what BOD did against Ulster is fine as he's still 'in possession'.

Of course, if you throw it over your opponent, he's quite entitled to cream you in the tackle* as technically you still have possession. So you'd be doing well to throw it up, keep your eye on the ball sufficiently well to catch it and still avoid the tackler, but it would be within the rules, I think.

(*This caused a bit of ruckus back in April when Mafi knocked on, tried to regather and Heaslip nailed him just before he caught it. Ryle Nugent called it as an early tackle, Ryle Nugent was wrong. I know, I was shocked too.)

prospect

phog wrote: »

How di he manage to throw the ball from his side of the halfway line and catch it as he stood on the line if it didn't go forward?

This will explain it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMlDy2jP9s

Podge_irl

The problem with that BOD trick is that if he is judged to still be in possession then it's obstruction by Hickie.

daveharnett

totallegend wrote: »

IRB Law 12:

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes
forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the
ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or

another player before the original player can catch it.

I would read this to mean that it's only a knock-on if you lose possession, i.e. if it hits the ground or another player, so in theory, what BOD did against Ulster is fine as he's still 'in possession'.

The outcome of a forward pass doesn't matter in the way that it does for a knock on...

"A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line." An unintentional throw forward (aka forward pass) is a scrum. A 'deliberate' throw forward (as with any other offense) can be escalated to a penalty/card depending on the situation.

Bottom line, if you deliberately throw it forward then you can expect to hear advantage or a whistle. As for the BOD example, sure it might have been marginally forward but refs are rugby fans too. It would take a proper world-class jobsworth to find fault with that piece of play.

totallegend wrote: »

Of course, if you throw it over your opponent, he's quite entitled to cream you in the tackle* as technically you still have possession.

I follow your argument that a player juggling with the ball is still in possession, but I don't think it's quite that clear-cut. I think it would depend on the ref and the incident. If I see a defender demolish an attacker who's completely focused on retrieving the ball rather than protecting themselves, I'll be thinking carefully about...

10.4(e)
Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously.

A little of all of the above could apply.

castie

Dr.Evil wrote: »

It's a strange one, I remember Leamy slapping the ball forward off a lineout, catching it, grounding it, and getting the try against England. Which I would of thought illegal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV97mxR6BuA

First try on that link..

Is that not a knock on?

Its come off leamy then made contact with the english player then leamys got it back.

Podge_irl

castie wrote: »

Is that not a knock on?

Its come off leamy then made contact with the english player then leamys got it back.

TMO adjudged it not to have hit the English player.

Dr.Evil

I thought it was a knock on at the time, was an interesting call.

That wasnt a slap, he juggled it to gain control of the ball, then grounded it. Nothing wrong with what he did.

Would the call go down to whether or not the referee thought it was intentional?
As in Leamy was juggling for it, that much is fairly clear, but had he deliberately slapped it just to get it past the English player and grounded it, would it of been disallowed on that basis? It's a fine line between the two I imagine.
I hope that makes sense..:P

castie

Podge_irl wrote: »

TMO adjudged it not to have hit the English player.

Seemed like two distinct flicks there ah well.

Dr.Evil

Dr.Evil wrote: »

Would the call go down to whether or not the referee thought it was intentional?
As in Leamy was juggling for it, that much is fairly clear, but had he deliberately slapped it just to get it past the English player and grounded it, would it of been disallowed on that basis? It's a fine line between the two I imagine.
I hope that makes sense..:P

Makes perfect sense, Leamy fully entitled to make an attempt to retrieve the ball, if he knocks it forward and regains control without it touching another player/the ground then it is fine.

Referees would obviously use cop on if you were intentionally smashing a ball over an onrushing defence GAA style and rounding them to catch it though.

Theta

I have seen people head the ball forward over a player and regaining but off the head isnt a knock on.

jacothelad

Tana Umaga deliberately knocked an intercept ball forward and caught it to score a try v. England about 5 years ago. I thought at the time it should have been a penalty. His first action was to knock the ball forward. He made no attempt initially to catch the ball.

LostPassword

It's not a knock on if the ball goes forward off a player but doesn't hit the ground or another player - but as the player is still deemed to be in possession, he can be tackled as if he had the ball.

*sorry totallegend got in first. He's correct. The heaslip / Mafi incident underlines why it's a bad idea to try it - you can be legally creamed as you reach for the ball with ribs exposed - ouch.