Fired or made redundant?

OldmanMondeo

So I got let go today. Company claims I was not productive on sales, was aggressive to co-workers and didn't seem to be committed to the job. Just to point out all these reasons are complete BS, I worked well with everyone in the company and like others I would have had a moment or 2 with some people and if they where true, why was I never spoken to about it in 5 years and never given any sort of warning. The real reason is more politics than anything else..

Anyway, I was told I was being let go due to these reasons, I asked was I being made redundant and was told no the job gets made redundant not the person?? So therefore I asked was I being fired, again I was told I was being let go.I did keep calm throughout the meeting and put my side of things across. I was given 4 weeks notice, which I will be paid for rather than going in. I was called in alone by a director of the company.

TBH I think they have breached several proccedures in letting me go.

Anyway, I need to find out where I stand now. Am I only entitled to 4 weeks pay or should I expect to get the minimum redundancy of 2 weeks per year plus 1 week pay, would be in the region of 11 weeks as I just completed 5 years service.

ukoda

You were fired so no redundancy I'm afraid :-(

But they really should have started with a warning if they had genuine concerns about you.

dlofnep

You can dispute the dismissal if you feel it was unfair.

Details here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

Delancey

On the face of things it looks like your employer did not follow fair procedure - had you received any written warnings ?

gandalf

dlofnep wrote: »

You can dispute the dismissal if you feel it was unfair.

Details here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

I would contact the company in question and advise them that you will be taking them to court for an unfair dismissal.

He really should get advice before he rings them and says anything. I suggest OP you get the number of a good employment law solicitor and arrange to meet them as soon as possible on Monday.

Based on what you have posted it appears that you were given no forewarning of your alleged behaviour or any opportunity to improve to keep your job. If this is the way it happened then it is very dodgy indeed.

dlofnep

Indeed Gandalf, that's why I edited my post.

dlofnep

gandalf wrote: »

He really should get advice before he rings them and says anything. I suggest OP you get the number of a good employment law solicitor and arrange to meet them as soon as possible on Monday.

Based on what you have posted it appears that you were given no forewarning of your alleged behaviour or any opportunity to improve to keep your job. If this is the way it happened then it is very dodgy indeed.

Aye, there should be a written warning before dismissal. Dismissal on the spot, without a very good reason should be grounds for unfair dismissal.

niallers1

The only reason I know that would allow him to skip through the process is if it was gross mis-conduct..

If it's like you say it looks like he skipped a few steps..

You should have first been councelled to dicsuss the issue. Then a verbal warning , then a written warning at the very least..

If it is found to be an unfair dismissal you could get half a years payment if you go to court.

Your employer will have to show the steps he took and have everything documented to proove his case..It will be up to the employer to proove that he did not dismiss you unfairly.

Your boss sounds like a total amateur..

Eoin

dlofnep wrote: »

Aye, there should be a written warning before dismissal. Dismissal on the spot, without a very good reason should be grounds for unfair dismissal.

These steps are not set out in law. Employment law only recommends that disciplinary procedures ae in place, and fair etc. There are no specific steps that a company must follow by law.

That they didn't document any of this has probably left the company in an awkward position though, as they might find it hard to back any of this up.

dlofnep

Eoin wrote: »

These steps are not set out in law. Employment law only recommends that disciplinary procedures ae in place, and fair etc. There are no specific steps that a company must follow by law.

That they didn't document any of this has probably left the company in an awkward position though, as they might find it hard to back any of this up.

Aye, it might benefit the OP to check out his original contract as it usually states these things on them. We had a few strikes rule, unofficial verbal warnings all the way up to official written.

Stheno

dlofnep wrote: »

Aye, it might benefit the OP to check out his original contract as it usually states these things on them. We had a few strikes rule, unofficial verbal warnings all the way up to official written.

Or it might say that the role is dependant on performance, and unsatisfactory performance will lead to dismissal. The fact the OP got four weeks notice would suggest that to me.

There is no legislative guide on any warnings etc.

colly10

You were fired, not made redundant. The procedures before you get fired are not set in law as far as i'm aware but they are in your contract. Have you still got that?
Either way you need to get a solicitor, you can't deal with this company yourself so there's very little you can do other than leave it to the experts

As far as i'm aware, you only really let contract staff or probation staff go, for permanent staff you either fire them or make them redundant.
Thats why nearly all permanent jobs have a probation period, its because it's very difficult to get rid of someone who's useless without making them redundent

dvpower

gandalf wrote: »

He really should get advice before he rings them and says anything. I suggest OP you get the number of a good employment law solicitor and arrange to meet them as soon as possible on Monday.

Based on what you have posted it appears that you were given no forewarning of your alleged behaviour or any opportunity to improve to keep your job. If this is the way it happened then it is very dodgy indeed.

Even it is dodgy (it does look dodgy), it looks like the OP's time is coming to an end at that company - even if s\he got some legal advise and brought it to the company and that stopped this attempt, the writing is on the wall.
The OP needs to look at what the best possible realistic outcome is and that might be to negotiate the OP resigning on good terms (i.e. with a good written reference, and maybe some redundancy like payment). That might be the best solution all round.

OldmanMondeo

Thanks everyone. I was never given any warnings at all. Other people in the company had been given warnings, but there is nothing in the contract stating a warning proceedure. I will be making no further contact with the company, except through a solicitor if I have a case.

I have never been in this position in 20 years of working and have the usual concerns of how to paid the next bill. I have 6 months to make a claim for unfair dismissal, which I will do if I have a case. It will not be the first case like this against the company, I might be able to find out how the 1 case I know about got on.

I just want to get back to work ASAP...

OldmanMondeo

niallers1 wrote: »

Your boss sounds like a total amateur..

Ex boss....and they feel they can do what they want. The recession really brought the worst out in them. Plenty of people were let go without any notice or warnings.

bmarley

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

So I got let go today. Company claims I was not productive on sales, was aggressive to co-workers and didn't seem to be committed to the job. Just to point out all these reasons are complete BS, I worked well with everyone in the company and like others I would have had a moment or 2 with some people and if they where true, why was I never spoken to about it in 5 years and never given any sort of warning. The real reason is more politics than anything else..

Anyway, I was told I was being let go due to these reasons, I asked was I being made redundant and was told no the job gets made redundant not the person?? So therefore I asked was I being fired, again I was told I was being let go.I did keep calm throughout the meeting and put my side of things across. I was given 4 weeks notice, which I will be paid for rather than going in. I was called in alone by a director of the company.

TBH I think they have breached several proccedures in letting me go.

Anyway, I need to find out where I stand now. Am I only entitled to 4 weeks pay or should I expect to get the minimum redundancy of 2 weeks per year plus 1 week pay, would be in the region of 11 weeks as I just completed 5 years service.

I would seek immediate advice from employment rights tribunal which is a free service for all. As far as I am aware, proper procedures must be adhered to with regard to disciplinary processes etc so one cannot be just "fired". Even if there was a serious allegation made against you, this would have to be fully investigated properly and you would be entitled to bring your own representative at your hearing. I would say that you are entitled to redundancy at the very least. If employer fails to offer you this, take to employment rights who will advice you further. If it goes to employment tribunal you will be entitled to enhanced redundancy.

OldmanMondeo

Thanks everyone for their advise, I have looked into the matter and I don't want to say anything at this early stage.

In fact, if this thread could be locked or deleted (even better) it might help.

OldmanMondeo

Ok, just to update. I spoke to a solicitor the following Monday after I was let go. He agreed that I had a strong case. I had 2 options, Employment tribunal or hit them with court. The second option was risker but could be quicker and I could possibly get more cash. It also meant that I could force the company to give me a decent written reference. I took the second option and this has now been settled in my favour. I got a few quid and a reference. With the stress my family went through with this I am glad it is now over and I can get out looking for work.

Thanks to everyone who gave advise and if anyone is left in a similar position, I would strongly advise talking to a solicitor and heading to court.

dlofnep

Congrats Glad to hear it.

Delancey

Great news OP - nice to hear of a win for the ' little guy '.

shoegirl

You are entitled to due process. If there was no previous processes taken to try to deal with problems then you have a case. However if there were repeated complaints about you, which were discussed with you and you chose to ignore, you probably don't have a case.

However many employers do try to simply dump a "problem employee" without following any process. The moral of the story is to make sure some kind of procedure is followed and use its appeal process, if you are denied that, solicitor as the case here is the only route.

Sad thing is you probably still didn't get as much money as having a job. Employers "save" on redundant employees very quickly these days

dvpower

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I took the second option and this has now been settled in my favour. I got a few quid and a reference. With the stress my family went through with this I am glad it is now over and I can get out looking for work.

Did it actually get to court, or was the threat of court enough?

OldmanMondeo

dvpower wrote: »

Did it actually get to court, or was the threat of court enough?

It was going that way, as in we where outside the court room. I still have to get the cheque, so once that is in my bank and clear, I will give more details on hold my legal team when about it.

OldmanMondeo

shoegirl wrote: »

You are entitled to due process. If there was no previous processes taken to try to deal with problems then you have a case. However if there were repeated complaints about you, which were discussed with you and you chose to ignore, you probably don't have a case.

However many employers do try to simply dump a "problem employee" without following any process. The moral of the story is to make sure some kind of procedure is followed and use its appeal process, if you are denied that, solicitor as the case here is the only route.

Sad thing is you probably still didn't get as much money as having a job. Employers "save" on redundant employees very quickly these days

My issue was more the second part of you quote. This employer did not save on me, infact had they made me redundant it would have cost them a lot less, about 5 times less...

OldmanMondeo

Ok, Final update, I got my settlement from the ex-employers and I am starting a new job in a few weeks. Thanks to everyone for their comments and advise. If anyone is put in the same position as I was, PM me and I will help where I can.

Buffman

Congrats on the new job, and the settlement.

vikingdub

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Ok, just to update. I spoke to a solicitor the following Monday after I was let go. He agreed that I had a strong case. I had 2 options, Employment tribunal or hit them with court. The second option was risker but could be quicker and I could possibly get more cash. It also meant that I could force the company to give me a decent written reference. I took the second option and this has now been settled in my favour. I got a few quid and a reference. With the stress my family went through with this I am glad it is now over and I can get out looking for work.

Thanks to everyone who gave advise and if anyone is left in a similar position, I would strongly advise talking to a solicitor and heading to court.

I have only just seen your posts and am very glad that it all worked out for you.

Just to clarify a number of points that have been raised on this thread.

To qualify for the protection of the Unfair Dismissal legislation an employee must have a minimum of 12 months continuous employment with that employer. The exceptions are where the dismissal was for trade union activity or pregnancy related. In these situations an employee may take a complaint of unfair dismissal to the Rights Commission or to the EAT. Discriminatory dismissal is another area and is handled by the Equality Tribunal and the dismissal must relate to one of the nine grounds of the equality legislation.

The maximum that the EAT can award is two years salary and you are expected to mitigate your loss by seeking to secure alternative employment as soon as possible, there is a sting in the tail here as if you secure alternative employment quickly, the fact that you have mitigated your loss may lead to a lower award from the tribunal.

An employee may opt to take a civil case of breach of contract to the civil courts, which it seems is the route that you took. This route is generally used by individuals on higher salaries and who can afford higher legal fees. The amount that can be awarded differs depending on what Court you go to, the higher the Court the higher the potential award AND the higher the potential costs if you lose.

Under Irish employment legislation, all dismissals are deemed unfair and the onus is on the employer to prove otherwise, except in cases of claims of constructive dismissal where the onus transfers to the employee to prove that the dismissal was unfair.

With regard to solicitor, be very careful who you select to represent you, any solicitor can practice employment law but that does not mean that he/she has the required level of competence/expertise in the area. Many solicitors whose main experience was in conveyancing have jumped on the employment law bandwagon and have been known to give disasterous advice. If you cannot afford a first class employment law solicitor, you would be better off seeking the advise of HR Consultant with experience in the area. You do not need to be legally represented at the EAT, in fact, if you cannot afford the best you are better off going in unrepresented as the members of the Tribunal are obliged to ensure that there is a level playing field.

Every company should have a set of policies and procedures which are communicated to all employees and followed where needed. Where disciplinary polices and procedures are concerned, an employer would be well advised to base the company policy on the LRC Code of Practice: Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures S.I. NO. 146 OF 20. An employer who does this and is able to prove to the EAT that the procedures set out in the policy have been followed will be in a very good position to defend against a complaint of unfair dismissal. There is no legal obligation on an employer to use the Code as a basis for the policy/procedures but it will certainly help them.