Social welfare system makes genuine claimants feel bad

cakeisgood

I am unfortunately soon to be joining the ever expanding dole queue (nearly finished college, no job, no money to emigrate etc, usual story) and I have heard that people who are genuine claimants (who lost jobs through no fault of their own etc) are treated quite badly and that the people working at the social welfare offices are either rude or 'look down their noses' at genuine claimants. Funnily enough it seems the longer you are on social welfare the less hassle you have. Any comments/experiences/thoughts on the subject?

dan_d

Be as sweet as pie to them.

"Please" "Thank you" " That'd be great, if you wouldn't mind" "whenever you get the chance"....kill them with kindness.

Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. The SW workers are not necessarily out to get you, but nor are they the most helpful people in the world. And being nice to them gets a far better response - because most people tend to be extremely irritated if they find themselves in a SW office, as they've either lost their job or are having money withheld by the system. Neither of which contribute to people's general happiness, let me assure you.

marcusgunn

Planning to go on the dole before even finishing college.....
Good for you, that's the spirit!
The future is safe:mad:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

later12

marcusgunn wrote: »

Planning to go on the dole before even finishing college.....
Good for you, that's the spirit!
The future is safe:mad:

By the sound of it the poster doesn't want to go on the dole, but I am sure he or she is aware that in addition to 300,000 people officially unemployed, there are 85,000 people about to come out of university or technical colleges for the summer, as well as thousands more from schools, and a huge number will be looking for summer work. It is realistic to anticipate that s/he will have to go on the dole, although I am sure will try avoid it.

mattjack

cakeisgood wrote: »

I am unfortunately soon to be joining the ever expanding dole queue (nearly finished college, no job, no money to emigrate etc, usual story) and I have heard that people who are genuine claimants (who lost jobs through no fault of their own etc) are treated quite badly and that the people working at the social welfare offices are either rude or 'look down their noses' at genuine claimants. Funnily enough it seems the longer you are on social welfare the less hassle you have. Any comments/experiences/thoughts on the subject?

as well as going to your welfare office, make sure you apply for a medical card and or anything thing else you may be entitled to...register with Fas too.

smelltheglove

Things you have heard are too true...! It wasnt until my hubbie was almost a year and a half out of work that we finally got someone in our corner, our usual cwo was away and his cover met with us, routine appointment and was quite astounded at the hassle we had been having. Eventually we had found someone extremely helpful. We wanted to move to a cheaper house and he offered to help by fronting the deposit until we got ours back from the last landlord, which had been point blankly refused by the other cwo. He agreed with us when we said that we didnt see the point in renting somewhere at the limit of the rent allowance when we could get somewhere for cheaper that would save them money and be more manageable when the hubbie got work.

Thankfully he got work around 2 weeks after meeting this guy but we were so relieved that this guy had our backs so to speak, he was the only one we ever met that really understood we didnt want to be in the position we were and were just trying to survive. He arranged payments to help us get back on our feet, when payments we were entitled to before were turned down he ensured we were starting again with as much of a clean slate as possible and wished us all the best hoping we would not be back! I suppose it can be the luck of the draw who you deal with but until then it was a nightmare!

OP my advise is, try your very hardest to get work and keep trying, if you end up in the system dont let it take hold of you and ruin your spirit, believe me it can, get out and about doing things, anything and keep looking for work because otherwise, before you know it, you may be in the system for years and any qualifications you got might never have been put to use!

Best of luck with all!

carm

mattjack wrote: »

...register with Fas too.

I personally have had a less than pleasant experience on the social welfare, try not to get past the year of benefit if at all humanly possible, as after that it becomes the "look at the inside of your intestines" time in case you're hiding some cash in there, where the welfare officer arrives on your doorstep unannounced.

Some people I know have advised that you need to be pushy and hassle them to your entitlements, possibly it works, I haven't tried so that may be why I've got absolutely nowhere with them. I wish you a better experience than me although I think it depends on where you go and who you get to discuss your claim.

As for FAS...where do I start. Totally uninterested, not once been contacted, the month I was to register for a course, they advised me "the funding ran out". After a long letter to request some form of help to get particular training, I was told, there was none "I don't mean to be smart but why don't you try Vincent de Paul" was the answer.

On phoning to ask about other courses and discussing the funding issue, the FAS staff member proceeded to complain about his own job being at risk and worrying about cuts. How we got from my redundancy, no funding to pay for anyone unfortunate to find themselves unemployed to "how the FAS workers struggling to come to terms with a possible pay cut" I'll never know.

cakeisgood

Thanks everyone for your advise and comments, really appreciate it and am sorry to hear about the bad experiences you have had. Its stressful enough being out of work without having red tape getting in the way. People have to eat etc and its not that most people currently out of work dont want to work, they cant get work because of the present state of the economy. I am currently looking for a job as quite rightly, I dont want to be on the dole. I didnt go to college to survive on 188e a week so I will be doing my utmost best to get work. I have either worked or being in education since I left school 7 years ago so this is a new experience for me.

Carm, I totally agree with you regarding Fas. A friend of mine was out of work 3 years ago (beginning of the recession) and he wanted to do a course, simply for something to do. He applied for a course and was told because he was only recently out of work that he was not legible. He was basically told that the course he was interested in was only for the long term unemployed. How bad does it have to get before people get help? Like if your out of work for ages you can get a third level course paid for but my friend couldnt even get on a fas course. Bearing in mind that this was only the beginning of the recession. The system sucks-People who dont want to work get everything thrown at them (Know a guy in his 40s, got a degree while still claiming social welfare, got the college grant and his flat paid for, graduated 3 years ago and still has done nothing about getting a job) and people who do want to work and are new to the system are made to feel like spongers

clear thinking

cakeisgood wrote: »

I am unfortunately soon to be joining the ever expanding dole queue (nearly finished college, no job, no money to emigrate etc, usual story) and I have heard that people who are genuine claimants (who lost jobs through no fault of their own etc) are treated quite badly and that the people working at the social welfare offices are either rude or 'look down their noses' at genuine claimants. Funnily enough it seems the longer you are on social welfare the less hassle you have. Any comments/experiences/thoughts on the subject?

A two liner would cover it: Have you heard of professional courtesy? You would come across a lot better if you tried using it sometimes.

And sure why not mention you will escalte the issue, could they inform you of the process involved, rubber stamp merchants (Civil servants) hate that type of thing

Icepick

You do not need a lot of money to emigrate.

Stheno

I was out of work for ten weeks between Nov 2010 and Jan of this year.

I found Social Welfare incredibly helpful, they went out of their way to make sure that I got all of my entitlements, to the extent of follow up phone calls to clarify my situation.

I hated going in and having to explain why I was there in an open office, and would like to see soundproofed cubicles as opposed to my local office where you sit in front of someone in a waiting area and go through why you are there.

That said, I couldn't have had a nicer experience in the circumstance, I was treated with respect and kindness, and when I went in to sign off, I was congratulated by the lady behind the desk, and wished the best of luck in my new job.

People working in Social Welfare are not demons, I found being polite and having good manners helped a lot (based on observations of behaviour of others while I was there) and in my case they went out of their way to ensure I got what I was entitled to.

Imagine the abuse they put up with every day, I couldn't do it.

jim69

did you leave job to go to college ? if not you havent paid any tax,should you be entitled to anything ?

Stheno

jim69 wrote: »

did you leave job to go to college ? if not you havent paid any tax,should you be entitled to anything ?

Me? No I lost a very well paid job, and then found another less well paid ten weeks later.

What I got in those ten weeks in terms of social welfare (didn't qualify for RA, or anything other than JB) was pretty paltry in terms of my tax contribution in previous years.

I've pretty much been in continuous employment since 1995.

Oh_Noes

jim69 wrote: »

did you leave job to go to college ? if not you havent paid any tax,should you be entitled to anything ?

"Should" would be a matter of opinion, which seems harshly divided. He would be entitled to means-tested benefits which would be €188 per week if he's over 25, €100 if he's not.

Personally I'm happier to see younger people to college and getting educated and signing on until a good job comes along rather than jumping at the first minimum wage shít-shovelling job or emigrating. It's much better to have our tax money spent on people who are going to be spending it here in the Irish economy while trying to find or create employment than being plowed into the bottomless EU debt pit, which is basically money gone from the country and lost forever.

Stheno

Oh_Noes wrote: »

"Should" would be a matter of opinion, which seems harshly divided. He would be entitled to means-tested benefits which would be €188 per week if he's over 25, €100 if he's not.

Personally I'm happier to see younger people to college and getting educated and signing on until a good job comes along rather than jumping at the first minimum wage shít-shovelling job or emigrating. It's much better to have our tax money spent on people who are going to be spending it here in the Irish economy while trying to find or create employment than being plowed into the bottomless EU debt pit, which is basically money gone from the country and lost forever.

I'd agree, I'm happy to see anyone increasing their skills/furthering their education and if it's state funded and means they are not at home and suffering the effects of laying about the house all day along with increasing their skills then that's a good use of government funds. Furthermore that education will hopefully translate into a local person getting a job and furthering the economy by spending most of their earnings here.

Oh_Noes

Icepick wrote: »

...

Shock horror! Not very Bill Cullen I know, but despite the spin and propoganda that's all over the news "having a job [any job at all?] gives you a few quid and a reason to get up every morning"; bull****. I see plenty of people miserable, in sole destroying jobs who won't apply for a better one for fear of being turned down and sacked by their old employer for trying. Keep our skilled people IN the country and look after them. Vote in a government that can create jobs and facilitate young people who can create businesses and jobs for others.

Stheno

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Shock horror! Not very Bill Cullen I know, but despite the spin and propoganda that's all over the news "having a job [any job at all?] gives you a few quid and a reason to get up every morning"; bull****. I see plenty of people miserable, in sole destroying jobs who won't apply for a better one for fear of being turned down and sacked by their old employer for trying. Keep our skilled people IN the country and look after them. Vote in a government that can create jobs and facilitate young people who can create businesses and jobs for others.

How can you be sacked by a current employer for applying for a new job????

Oh_Noes

Stheno wrote: »

How can you be sacked by a current employer for applying for a new job????

I don't think you can but I know it doesn't go down very well, especially in low-skill, low-pay work where you're not unionised.

The point I was trying to make was that if the guy wants to claim for a few months before he finds work suitable to his skills, I don't mind public money being spent on it. It's an investment as it will keep him in the country and the money will be spent in the economy.

Stheno

Oh_Noes wrote: »

I don't think you can but I know it doesn't go down very well, especially in low-skill, low-pay work where you're not unionised.

The point I was trying to make was that if the guy wants to claim for a few months before he finds work suitable to his skills, I don't mind public money being spent on it. It's an investment as it will keep him in the country and the money will be spent in the economy.

Taking time off for interviews even if you disguise it as sick leave/sudden holiday leave never goes down well

Anyway I had to claim for ten weeks until I found a job, I was damn grateful for the support, I've since gotten a job where I am far more qualified now (due to my self study/application) than I was previously, I love my role, and I'm delighted I'm still here.

I did consider emigrating before I got my current job, so I get what you mean

cakeisgood

jim69 wrote: »

did you leave job to go to college ? if not you havent paid any tax,should you be entitled to anything ?

I paid taxes for years and even worked for a year while I was in college. Anyone who is unemployed is entitled to social welfare whether if they have paid taxes or not. No-one can survive on fresh air

cakeisgood

Icepick wrote: »

You do not need a lot of money to emigrate.

I literally do not have enough for even the price of a flight ticket, never mind to get myself set up abroad and to keep myself going until I find work

RichardAnd

Stheno wrote: »

How can you be sacked by a current employer for applying for a new job????

You can't, it would be unfair dismissal. However, it's wise to keep it to yourself if indeed you are applying for a new job.

Icepick

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Keep our skilled people IN the country and look after them.

Someone who just left a college and never worked is not skilled.
I don't mind waiting for 2-3 months but it's not enough for a lot of professions and most people won't get a job they want. So it's a waste of time and money.

liammur

marcusgunn wrote: »

Planning to go on the dole before even finishing college.....
Good for you, that's the spirit!
The future is safe:mad:

This is an extremely silly attitude to have. Anyone who is entitled to the dole should take it, if the state is entitled to your taxes, they will oblige.

'Ask not what your country can do for you.....' no need for that hero talk.

cakeisgood

Icepick wrote: »

Someone who just left a college and never worked is not skilled.
I don't mind waiting for 2-3 months but it's not enough for a lot of professions and most people won't get a job they want. So it's a waste of time and money.

People who go to college go to learn a skill (and most college courses enquire you to do work experience) so I do not agree with you that people who go to college are not skilled. It would be pointless going to college for years, surviving on hardly any money/or running yourself into the ground studying AND holding down a job if you didnt gain a skill from it

murphaph

cakeisgood wrote: »

I paid taxes for years and even worked for a year while I was in college. Anyone who is unemployed is entitled to social welfare whether if they have paid taxes or not. No-one can survive on fresh air

To be honest, if a person has never paid PRSI they should be entitled to nothing in their own right. They should remain the responsibility of their parents IMO. Their parents should feed/house/clothe them and if they too are unemployed, then the adult child who has never contributed should be considered a child dependent of the parents and their payments should be adjusted, just as if the person was 17.

The Agogo

I disagree with emigration being cheap. Yes, flights can be cheap (to Europe) but otherwise are quite an expense.

I recently emigrated to Poland, and soon after this I'll be heading to England. But getting started up here in Poland was quite difficult. I was applying for jobs for 23 days until I got one. Even then, I had to shell out rent deposit, rent, bills, food money, transport costs and all others until I got my first paltry paycheck which came three months after I arrived.

So no. It is not cheap to emigrate. I can imagine it being cheap if you can get a free ride on an empty cargo ship, then living with possible friends or relatives for a while in the country you have moved to.

Luckily, I had some cash to do all of it (previous job didn't sack me, but it was a sinking ship nonetheless). But I'd say I spent about €1500 minimum in all for my emigration.

I would still heartily recommend it though if the opportunity arises OP.

cakeisgood

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest, if a person has never paid PRSI they should be entitled to nothing in their own right. They should remain the responsibility of their parents IMO. Their parents should feed/house/clothe them and if they too are unemployed, then the adult child who has never contributed should be considered a child dependent of the parents and their payments should be adjusted, just as if the person was 17.

That is a good point but most parents believe that once their kid is 18 they should not have to pay for them anymore hence why so many are on sw. How about parents who work? If that was implemented it would save the state millions

cakeisgood

The Agogo wrote: »

I disagree with emigration being cheap. Yes, flights can be cheap (to Europe) but otherwise are quite an expense.

I recently emigrated to Poland, and soon after this I'll be heading to England. But getting started up here in Poland was quite difficult. I was applying for jobs for 23 days until I got one. Even then, I had to shell out rent deposit, rent, bills, food money, transport costs and all others until I got my first paltry paycheck which came three months after I arrived.

So no. It is not cheap to emigrate. I can imagine it being cheap if you can get a free ride on an empty cargo ship, then living with possible friends or relatives for a while in the country you have moved to.

Luckily, I had some cash to do all of it (previous job didn't sack me, but it was a sinking ship nonetheless). But I'd say I spent about €1500 minimum in all for my emigration.

I would still heartily recommend it though if the opportunity arises OP.

Was in hard to get work in Poland without having a language. Fair play to you, I know its cheaper over there but the wages are bad. I wish I even had 1500e, for some thats not a lot of money but for a lot of people its a huge amount.

jill_valentine

I was on the dole for a while a few years back, and it was fairly unpleasant, but that's just how it goes I suppose. I had a few extra frustrations with them, but I'll mention them anyway.

I did find the folks in the office remarkably unhelpful. It was before the recession had really kicked in, so they gave the impression that they just assumed everybody had a lot of experience with the system. At the time, there was some industrial dispute with them, so they wouldn't answer the phones, closed at weird times, and were quite distracted and dismissive. So it was quite frustrating in that regard, you'd have to head in and queue up for every minor enquiry and then they'd tell you that you were in the wrong queue, and probably wouldn't have an answer for you one way or the other.

I volunteered at a music festival at one point, and that threw them for a loop. I couldn't seem to make them understand that I was going to be living in a field with no Post Office for a week. Then I made the mistake of using the phrase "Voluntary work", so they almost cut off my payments altogether.

Eventually, I think the guy behind the counter resolved the problem by filling in a form to say I was going to be abroad for the week, even though I wasn't. This solution took a matter of days and hours to come up with, and they still left me short - by the time I started getting anywhere about recovering the missing payment, I'd gotten a job anyway.

That's probably a one off problem, but I thought it was worth illustrating my experience. The people I encountered who were polite didn't know what I needed to know, and the people who might know were slow to help or rude.

Being on the dole does kind of suck, but it's better than nothing. And it can be very disheartening too; but you can't let it get to you or you'll never get off it.

Good luck, OP.

thebman

Icepick wrote: »

You do not need a lot of money to emigrate.

Depends whether you have a job arranged before you leave the country TBH.

Even if you do, you have to pay for flights, luggage and get a place to live until you reach your first pay day and probably have another month to cover in case there are issues getting you setup on HR and paying appropriate tax rates.

Then you have to be able to furnish where you live in many countries.

It might be cheap if you throw caution to the wind and just go and hope for the best but a smart person would plan for the worst case scenario before going to another country. Depending on the country, you might not be entitled to welfare or it could take ages to get on their system.

dan_d

To be honest, OP, it's like anywhere. There are some good and some bad working in the SW.

What I find the most frustrating is that in the office I deal with, they can rarely give an answer to your question. And I don't ask particularly difficult questions. They always have to confer with the people beside them, or "ring you back". I'm dealing with 2 offices - one I signed on in, and then another in the city that you go to with any queries once your claim is dealt with. The one you sign on in is a disaster. They're quite rude 90% of the time, they're slow, disjointed, they rarely have the answers to questions and it's a small room always crowded with people, which I hate. The one in the city, however is grand - they're lovely to deal with, efficient, polite, always have the answers to my questions and are very helpful. From my experience, I lean on the one in the city if I need answers from the local one, as it appears to me that they are the ones with more power, so to speak....The other thing to bear in mind is that you ask the right questions. I find that one office (or even one person) will give me one answer, and if I go back the next day, I get a completely different answer. Repeat yourself if necessary and be extremely clear about what you are asking. It's an inconsistent system, and many people working in it don't know a lot of the details.

I've been at it a year now, on and off, and it sucks.There's nothing about the whole experience that makes it either enjoyable, easy, or even bearable, some days. You kind of just have to put your head down, keep your contact with them as minimal as you can and hope that something comes along for you.

Best of luck with it anyway, and I hope something comes along for you.

thebman

I applied for social welfare once but got a job before I received my first payment and I have to say that the people in the office basically seemed to be reasonably helpful.

I did feel bad doing it as I don't like to be associated with the long time spongers on the system. I think that part of it must be reformed.

Also applied to FAS who told me I had an IT degree so they could do nothing for me and there were no IT jobs in the area and did I try looking for jobs in Dublin (which is what I was doing, just wasn't living there) then sent me a job that I might want to apply for 2 years after I got a job :rolleyes:

mikemac

Was in a similar situation to the OP a few years back. Didn't qualify for JSB, I was just one week short of contributions
So had to do an interview for JSA and the lady in Galway treated me like dirt
I thought I was leaning into her handbag and stealing money to feed her children!
10 week later I still hadn't got a cent. I was signed off before I ever got anything so I just got one cheque

Dealt with another office a few years later in another county and this was for JSB. The staff were lovely and everything was straightforward, claim was processed flawlessly.
I missed a signing day once , my own stupid fault as I mixed up dates so I apologized and they were fine about it and realy nice.

They work best with procedures. Throw a hundred simple JSB claims at them and they'll fly through them, the system is there
Throw them something unusual like self employed or voluntary work and they seem to struggle "computer says no"

jill_valentine

The wild inconsistency between one person and another can be useful, it's worth saying. I found that I didn't like the answer I got for any particular enquiry, I could just ask somebody else and get a completely different one.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

dan_d wrote: »

What I find the most frustrating is that in the office I deal with, they can rarely give an answer to your question. And I don't ask particularly difficult questions. They always have to confer with the people beside them, or "ring you back". I'm dealing with 2 offices - one I signed on in, and then another in the city that you go to with any queries once your claim is dealt with. The one you sign on in is a disaster. They're quite rude 90% of the time, they're slow, disjointed, they rarely have the answers to questions and it's a small room always crowded with people, which I hate. The one in the city, however is grand - they're lovely to deal with, efficient, polite, always have the answers to my questions and are very helpful. From my experience, I lean on the one in the city if I need answers from the local one, as it appears to me that they are the ones with more power, so to speak....

You're on the money in so far as there's a noticible difference in the level of service you receive in the 2 places.

Sounds like the office you sign on in in your locality is whats known as a "Branch Office" whereas the one in the city is the Local Office. The Branch Office is contracted privately and the people who work there aren't actually Civil Servants. The idea behind a Branch Office is to supply an area where there is no Local Office with a SW "outlet" of sorts. The staff in those offices are mainly there to take claims and I'm not aware that they receive much training as they are not technically SW staff.

Slightly pedantic I know, but just thought it was worth mentioning

goose2005

jim69 wrote: »

did you leave job to go to college ? if not you havent paid any tax,should you be entitled to anything ?

Worse is that children get 13 years of school without working a day in their lives, lazy sods.