Butcher of Bosnia arrested by his own?

jonniebgood1

.... the Serbian president annouced Mladic's arrest, 16 years after he was charged over atrocities he is alleged to have orchestrated during the Balkan wars.

"On behalf of the Republic of Serbia, we announce that Ratko Mladic has been arrested," Boris Tadic, the country's president, said.

"Today we closed one chapter of our difficult history that will bring us one step closer to full reconciliation in the region.

"All criminals must face justice," he said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/05/2011526101444596183.html

The man said to be responsible for the Srebrenica massacre is arrested in Serbia. He is said to be in poor health although that seems to be the standard defence to this type of charge.

Doctors in Serbia are assessing the health of genocide suspect Ratko Mladic before he can resume his appearance at an extradition hearing which is expected to transfer him to a war crimes tribunal in The Hague.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/mladic-health-assessed-extradition-hearing

Any opinions on what should be done with this man- should he face trial- has Serbia turned their back on him to please western governments- does he deserve the vilification- can they trace the massacre to him directly?

johngalway

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

He is said to be in poor health

The poor diddums.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Any opinions on what should be done with this man

The same thing that was done with Osama. A bit of his own justice.

MickJB1989

As far as I know he's liable for genocide through command responsibility, i.e. not preventing his troops from carrying it out, or punishing them once he became aware of it.

He may well have directly contributed/ ordered the genocide, and if so he deserves all he gets! (unfortunately life in a comfy UN prisoner at the most)

tricky D

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

has Serbia turned their back on him to please western governments

Pretty much so. EU accession was partly dependent on getting him, Milsoevic and 2 other chiefs into custody. The hunt has been going on for almost 10 years, but getting someone to bite and reveal them wasn't working despite the various carrots being waved.

BlaasForRafa

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Any opinions on what should be done with this man- should he face trial- has Serbia turned their back on him to please western governments- does he deserve the vilification- can they trace the massacre to him directly?

Of course he deserves to be tried and he damn well deserves vilification.

The problem with the Hague war crimes tribunal is that it takes far too long to try cases and gives defendants too many opportunities to filibuster and play for time.

Also iirc the Hague tribunal can't hand down death sentances and Mladic deserves to be hanged.

MOC1972

If you dont know what this guy and his friends have done watch A cry from the grave Srebrenica on top documentary .com.I myself think a very public hanging would be a step in the right direction.

MickJB1989

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Of course he deserves to be tried and he damn well deserves vilification.

The problem with the Hague war crimes tribunal is that it takes far too long to try cases and gives defendants too many opportunities to filibuster and play for time.

Also iirc the Hague tribunal can't hand down death sentances and Mladic deserves to be hanged.

Absolutely right, unfortunately. The UN's respect for human rights mean none of its tribunals (ICTY - who'll try this sod, ICTR and ICC) can order an execution.

They do take far to long to get things going, and let defendants away with murder (no pun intended) so as to be sure of not being labled hypocritcal or the champions of victor's justice. Look at Milosovic, he fired his counsel repeatedly, then decided to represent himself, thus delaying things further as they had to adjourn for him to spend time learning the law, and then he had he cheek to die during the damn trial, before they could return a conviction!

BrianD

jonniebgood1 wrote:

Any opinions on what should be done with this man- should he face trial- has Serbia turned their back on him to please western governments- does he deserve the vilification- can they trace the massacre to him directly?

Of course he should face trial on what is one of the worst war crimes in recent times which was part of one of the most obscenely prosecuted wars in recent times. He was the man in charge and certainly liked to parade himself on TV as the military genius on the front lines.

As for his culpability for individual events that why we have the War Crimes court and they will decide in due course.

There was a chilling documentary that I saw while in Australia called either 5 Days in July or "13 Days in July" made possibly by the BBC that documented the attach on Srebrinica and included footage that was obviously to document the Bosnia-Serb side of things. Mladic talks about renaming muslim streets and then there's the "armstice" style meeting with the Dutch peacekeepers.

Mladic was no great general either - the siege of Sarajevo was ultimately lifted, the campaign on the Dalmatian coast (split/Dubrovnik) didn't go well either and lost of lot of Serb held territory.

What he will be remembered for his how he fought the war with brutality - rape and mass murder.

Europe also has to remember is how we idly stood by and let these events unfold unhindered. It was really the USA who was the impetus through NATO to go in and start an intervention to cease hostilities. We had the worst scenarios from WW2 repeated in Europe in the '90s. Nothing seemed to be learned.

My own thoughts - Europe should have intervened militarily far quicker and Ireland should have been part of this force.

goldie fish

Strangely, it was the US reluctance to get involved that caused the failure of the UNPROFOR. What Dayton achieved, with US military support, was not much different to that offered by Lord Carrington in earlier agreements.
It woke up Europe to the idea that they could no longer rely on the US to act as the world's police force, while at the same time relying on their support for any affirmative action in the UNSC.

BigDuffman

It really boggles my mind that if someone is feeling under the weather they can avoid being held accountable for genocide...

Mahatma coat

how about the Dutch guys who stood back and watched this Massacre?? will they be tried too???

Where can I get a reliable source for the figure of 8000??

BrianD

Mahatma coat wrote: »

how about the Dutch guys who stood back and watched this Massacre?? will they be tried too???

Where can I get a reliable source for the figure of 8000??

The Dutch guys were just lightly armed UN peacekeepers against heavily armed Bosnian Serb (and other) forces. In theory the UN resolution allowed all necessary action but they were so tightly regulated that could offer very little military protection to the safe areas from either Mladics uniformed army and their "irregular" friends.

As for the massacre ... the Bosnian-Serbiam forces made sure this was done out of the view of UN peacekeepers. They also dug up and reburied remains sometimes twice.

Not forgetting that Mladic and his forces were quite happy to use UN soldiers as human shields during the conflict and use their uniforms to commit attacks.

The problem lies in the weak international political resolve to do anything. When that happens the military response will be weak.

The figure is reliable. They have listed over 8,000 missing and identified over 6,000 remains through DNA testing.

Mahatma coat

BrianD wrote: »

The Dutch guys were just lightly armed UN peacekeepers against heavily armed Bosnian Serb (and other) forces. In theory the UN resolution allowed all necessary action but they were so tightly regulated that could offer very little military protection to the safe areas from either Mladics uniformed army and their "irregular" friends.

As for the massacre ... the Bosnian-Serbiam forces made sure this was done out of the view of UN peacekeepers. They also dug up and reburied remains sometimes twice.

Not forgetting that Mladic and his forces were quite happy to use UN soldiers as human shields during the conflict and use their uniforms to commit attacks.

The problem lies in the weak international political resolve to do anything. When that happens the military response will be weak.

The figure is reliable. They have listed over 8,000 missing and identified over 6,000 remains through DNA testing.

the point is that Mladic and the Serbs did not work in a vacum, the croats and th Bosnians also Massacred a load of Serbs at different points in the conflict, but The American Press seemed to heap everything on th door of Serbia without any context, a policy we see repeated still with these trials.

those 8000 missing, are they confirmed to have been in Srebrenicia then missing, or are they just unacounted for over the duration of the conflict???

jonniebgood1

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the point is that Mladic and the Serbs did not work in a vacum, the croats and th Bosnians also Massacred a load of Serbs at different points in the conflict, but The American Press seemed to heap everything on th door of Serbia without any context, a policy we see repeated still with these trials.

So you think that Mladic should not be tried???

BrianD

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the point is that Mladic and the Serbs did not work in a vacum, the croats and th Bosnians also Massacred a load of Serbs at different points in the conflict, but The American Press seemed to heap everything on th door of Serbia without any context, a policy we see repeated still with these trials.

There were individuals indicted from all the antagonists and their 'mother' countries for both war crimes and breaches of the Geneva Convention.

However, there is no doubt that the chief offenders in the conflict was the Serbs and their sponsored forces in Bosnia and Croatia. It was the Serbian forces that started the policy of ethnic cleasing, who laid seige to Sarajevo, set up concentration camps, the Srebrenica massacre and others. These are facts that are on the record. It is clear that no side can hold it's head up and say we fought within the Geneva question - it's really a question of who has the least blood on its hands and clearly it's not Serbia (or it's sub states).

those 8000 missing, are they confirmed to have been in Srebrenicia then missing, or are they just unacounted for over the duration of the conflict???

Apparently confirmed as been in Srebrenica safe haven at the time. If you read reports you'll see that the UN and the Serbs were quite good at number keeping. I'm sure that there will be more insight into this record keeping when the trial takes place.

Bear in mind that the Serb forces were also better armed and organised then those of the fledgling Bosnian state (who were under an arms embargo). Mind you they didn't seem to be good at prosecuting wars militarily.

Mahatma coat

First off, I do think Mladic should be tried, however I think a lot of other people should be tried with him, specifically the Dutch commander and the UN personel who were supposed to be there to Stop just this sort of thing from happening.

BlaasForRafa

BrianD wrote: »

The Dutch guys were just lightly armed UN peacekeepers against heavily armed Bosnian Serb (and other) forces. In theory the UN resolution allowed all necessary action but they were so tightly regulated that could offer very little military protection to the safe areas from either Mladics uniformed army and their "irregular" friends.
.

Its easy to say from via the internet but the Dutch UN soldiers should have fought to the last bullet to protect the civilians in Srebernica, it was obvious even then what would happen if the Serbs took that town. Letting the serbs take the town without resistance is one of the most shameful acts in military history. Somehow I can't see British or American or indeed Irish troops doing the same.

It wasn't me!

Mahatma coat wrote: »

First off, I do think Mladic should be tried, however I think a lot of other people should be tried with him, specifically the Dutch commander and the UN personel who were supposed to be there to Stop just this sort of thing from happening.

There is a difference between failing to prevent something and being complicit in its having happened. In either case you are a part of the series of events, but your liability is not the same.

BrianD

Mahatma coat wrote: »

First off, I do think Mladic should be tried, however I think a lot of other people should be tried with him, specifically the Dutch commander and the UN personel who were supposed to be there to Stop just this sort of thing from happening.

It is true that the International community did not do enough and that the UN mandate was weak to the verge of useless. The Dutch soldiers are not culpable for the acts of Mladic. Let's assume for the moment that they were sufficiently armed, had full permission to engage Mladic military but ended up being defeated. Would Mladic be any less culpable? It's like saying a burglar is not responsible because you didn't switch your alarm on.

@BlaasForRafa I don't agree. There were numerous incidents of other UN soldiers being captured and used as human shields. The various indidenous forces in Bosnia ran rings around the UN forces because they knew that the rules of engagement were so narrow. For example, you had situations where US Air Force F-16s would drop flares to give the Serbs a warning that they were being bold before eventually returning to bomb them.

I don't think individual countries are to blame - all UN nations are responsible as a whole.

Mahatma coat

Do people honestl think that if Mladic had 'Defeated' the Dutch PeaceKeepers the world would have just shrugged its shoulders and said 'ah well, ya get that'

Fvck no, there would have been boots on the ground and no more Serb army.

instead the Dutch Stood by and facilitated the slaughter, a lot of the bosnians killed had been in the 'SafeHaven' prior to their deaths. the dutch were not Powerless to help, they were just disinterested

It wasn't me!

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Do people honestl think that if Mladic had 'Defeated' the Dutch PeaceKeepers the world would have just shrugged its shoulders and said 'ah well, ya get that'

Fvck no, there would have been boots on the ground and no more Serb army.

instead the Dutch Stood by and facilitated the slaughter, a lot of the bosnians killed had been in the 'SafeHaven' prior to their deaths. the dutch were not Powerless to help, they were just disinterested

Ah yes, a Padraig Pearse-style blood sacrifice to provoke outrage. Sorry, I'd rather still be breathing in that situation. You do what you can. Are you suggesting the Dutch peacekeepers were not only within their mandate to intervene but also possessed the capacity to do so effectively without serious losses themselves?

Manic Moran

I think a lot of other people should be tried with him, specifically the Dutch commander and the UN personel who were supposed to be there to Stop just this sort of thing from happening.

On what criminal charge? They have no liability.

Do people honestl think that if Mladic had 'Defeated' the Dutch PeaceKeepers the world would have just shrugged its shoulders and said 'ah well, ya get that'

Fvck no, there would have been boots on the ground and no more Serb army.

Perhaps, but that was not the instructions given. The job of the Dutch Army was not to provoke outrage or to save Bosnians, but to carry out the instructions of their political masters. Those instructions emphasised a lack of aggression. If the Dutch Ministry of Defence, or the UN chain of Command were insterested in fabricating a casus belli, they would have allowed and even supported such a stand. The politicians didn't want their troops involved in fighting, and a lack of fighting is exactly what they got.

If you can't see the difference between failing to prevent something and being complicit in it...

Can I ask you please to re-word that line (esp the bit I didn't quote) into something which is more clearly within the CoC rules?

NTM

BrianD

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Do people honestl think that if Mladic had 'Defeated' the Dutch PeaceKeepers the world would have just shrugged its shoulders and said 'ah well, ya get that'

Fvck no, there would have been boots on the ground and no more Serb army.

instead the Dutch Stood by and facilitated the slaughter, a lot of the bosnians killed had been in the 'SafeHaven' prior to their deaths. the dutch were not Powerless to help, they were just disinterested

Not true. The serbs humiliated the UN forces time and time again - they were taken prisoner, shot at by snipers, ambushed and at one time captured UN soldiers were handcuffed to military installations to prevent NATO air strikes (these were shown on Serb TV).

Unfortunately, the world shrugged its shoulders many times when it came to the Balkans. There is nothing that a group of lightly armed Dutch peace keepers could have done in the face of a heavily armed adversary. The Dutch couldn't even call on adequate air support.

At the same time the lack of the international community to work effectively does not absolve the serbs from blame for committing the act.

Corsendonk

A Dutch judge is one of the presiding judges, something that the Bosnian Muslims are not happy about.

goldie fish

Corsendonk wrote: »

A Dutch judge is one of the presiding judges, something that the Bosnian Muslims are not happy about.

They should be delighted! The national guilt the dutch have for Srebrenica guarantees that their feeling will be heard!