Do Women Still Get The Short Straw?

Phony Scott

I read recently that Catherine Zeta Jones wants to remake ‘War Of the Roses’ with her husband Michael Douglas. Admittedly her comments sounded a little tongue in cheek and I don’t she was being serious, but that’s besides the point.

I hadn’t seen the film in years and thought I’d give it another look. What is a big standout is the brilliant chemistry between Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner.

Now I haven’t seen Kathleen Turner in a film in years and I always remember her as being a really strong actress with serious box office clout back in the 1980’s. During that time she was in a slew of very good films.

But then shortly after War of the Roses she made her first film which was both a critical and commercial failure, V.I. Warshawski; a genuine turkey of a film. Now she ended up with a slew of personal problems, rheumatoid arthritis, alcoholism and being genuinely difficult to work with, but this didn’t make her any less of an great actress. You can read up about it on Wikipedia, which I did, but what caught my eye was this comment:

Turner slammed Hollywood over the disparate treatment accorded male actors over female actors in the quality of roles they receive as they age, calling it a "terrible double standard."

I can think of many male actors who had comeback roles after having a string of flops, for example, Nicolas Cage comes speedily to mind. Also many male actors have a great careers past their forties, in lead roles, but women don’t seem to fair quite as well with the exception of a minor few.

I haven’t thoroughly looked into it, so don’t jump down my throat, but do you think there is a double standard?

Sad Professor

She's right. There aren't a lot of good roles in Hollywood for older women, especially ones that were previously known for their good looks. The transition to older women roles is probably as difficult a transition as the one from child actor to adult. A lot of actresses don't make it, but many do. The ones who establish themselves early as being good actresses seem to stand a better chance. I notice that Diane Lane has already embraced these types of older roles, somewhat prematurely imo, but she's obviously thinking ahead.

Turner was mostly known for playing sexy characters, femme fatales, love interests, etc, so I can understand how she would have found it difficult. However, I also think the problem in a lot of cases is that actresses are reluctant to appear older in films and initially shy away from older roles to the detriment of their career. Either that or they are destroying themselves with plastic surgery in an attempt to stay young.

Meryl Streep seems to be role model for actresses looking for a long career.

Galvasean

Speaking of Streep, didn't she also recently hit out at the lack of lead roles available to older women?

enfant terrible

Phony Scott wrote: »

I read recently that Catherine Zeta Jones wants to remake ‘War Of the Roses’ with her husband Michael Douglas. Admittedly her comments sounded a little tongue in cheek and I don’t she was being serious, but that’s besides the point.

I hadn’t seen the film in years and thought I’d give it another look. What is a big standout is the brilliant chemistry between Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner.

Now I haven’t seen Kathleen Turner in a film in years and I always remember her as being a really strong actress with serious box office clout back in the 1980’s. During that time she was in a slew of very good films.

But then shortly after War of the Roses she made her first film which was both a critical and commercial failure, V.I. Warshawski; a genuine turkey of a film. Now she ended up with a slew of personal problems, rheumatoid arthritis, alcoholism and being genuinely difficult to work with, but this didn’t make her any less of an great actress. You can read up about it on Wikipedia, which I did, but what caught my eye was this comment:



I can think of many male actors who had comeback roles after having a string of flops, for example, Nicolas Cage comes speedily to mind. Also many male actors have a great careers past their forties, in lead roles, but women don’t seem to fair quite as well with the exception of a minor few.

I haven’t thoroughly looked into it, so don’t jump down my throat, but do you think there is a double standard?

She should write her own movie like those good will hunting guys.

pickarooney

I don't think you can deny it's true that there is a serious shortage of good roles for older actresses but I'm afraid it's also true that a lot of people just don't want to watch them. It's not just older women either; how many summer blockbusters can you think of with real female characters who are not just token love interests of set dressings?

I can't even think of a memorable performance from a voice actress in an animated film which is really an area where there should be no discrimination based on age or looks.

diddlybit

pickarooney wrote: »

It's not just older women either; how many summer blockbusters can you think of with real female characters who are not just token love interests of set dressings?

This is so true. I cannot remember the last time I watched a film that passed the Bechdel test.

In regards to roles for older women, it appears Hollywood has no problems casting a much older male actor with a much younger actress as love interests, occassionally beyond the realm of possibility. (I know that it happens, but definately not as frequently as Hollywood would have you believe.) It rarely happens the other way around, and if to did it would have to part of the storyline.

It's interesting to note that when there are roles for older actresses, many of them tend to centre narratives upon their age, divorced, older and dating etc.

Mark Hamill

pickarooney wrote: »

I can't even think of a memorable performance from a voice actress in an animated film which is really an area where there should be no discrimination based on age or looks.

Ellen DeGeneres in Finding Nemo?
Joan Cusack in Toy Story?

ztoical

pickarooney wrote: »

I can't even think of a memorable performance from a voice actress in an animated film which is really an area where there should be no discrimination based on age or looks.

The really good ones [E.G. Daily, Nancy Cartwright , Tara Strong etc etc] will focus more on television roles as they just pay a hell of lot better for professional voice over actors then feature films. Mainstream disney/pixar style films tend to look for 'name' actors to sell the film and alot of them aren't overly memorable male or female as not many live action actors make good voice over actors.

Galvasean

ztoical wrote: »

Mainstream disney/pixar style films tend to look for 'name' actors to sell the film and alot of them aren't overly memorable male or female as not many live action actors make good voice over actors.

Brings to mind that animated Sinbad movie from a few years back. It had brad Pitt and Catherine Zeta-Jones (Michelle Pfeiffer too apparently). Very unmemorable voice performances from all concerned IMO. Just big names to put on a poster to sell more tickets, not that kids give a damn of course.

johnny_ultimate

Anime is also a particularly strong animated area for female voice performances and characters. Look at Miyazaki, who is probably the most well known anime auteur. The vast majority of his films feature extremely strong female protagonists of all ages. Indeed, look at Howl's Moving Castle - a protagonist who is both a young woman and an elderly one due to extreme wizardry. You also have Sen / Chihirio, Nausicaa, Kiki and Ponyo, just off the top of my head. I'd be lying if I could tell you any of the original actresses' names, but it's certainly a trend to be admired. The late great Satoshi Kon also had a particular strength for strong female leads such as Paprika or Chiyoko in Millennium Actress (who had many voice actresses for her many ages). Of course, there are plenty of distrubingly sexualised, timid females in anime, but it's also an area of superb advances in terms of strong female leads.

In more general terms, it's all down to where you look I guess. Don't know why, but Away from Her sprung to mind as a wonderful role for Julie Christie. Saw a trailer for the new Ozon / Catherine Devenue film the other day, and again nice to see an older actress in a lead role. And there are a few actresses out there of all ages getting consistently strong roles - people like Saoirse Ronan or Sally Hawkings.

Frank Black

It's strange as well that male actors seem to be able to come back from major personal problems - I'm thinking Robert Downey Jnr, Mickey Rourke, Sean Penn, Mel Gibson etc..
But you rarely hear of actresses who do the same.

There seems to be an appetite among audiences for welcoming former bad-boys back into the fold - not so much for the ladies.

Galvasean

black francis wrote: »

It's strange as well that male actors seem to be able to come back from major personal problems - I'm thinking Robert Downey Jnr, Mickey Rourke, Sean Penn, Mel Gibson etc..
But you rarely hear of actresses who do the same.

There seems to be an appetite among audiences for welcoming former bad-boys back into the fold - not so much for the ladies.

Compare those guys to say Lidnsey Lohan. You'd never know, she might make a decent comeback yet as she's till young.
I'm still amazed at how quick Hollywood has been to forgive and forget Mel Gibson after all he has done.

Mickeroo

black francis wrote: »

It's strange as well that male actors seem to be able to come back from major personal problems - I'm thinking Robert Downey Jnr, Mickey Rourke, Sean Penn, Mel Gibson etc..
But you rarely hear of actresses who do the same.

There seems to be an appetite among audiences for welcoming former bad-boys back into the fold - not so much for the ladies.

Drew Barrymore.

Can't think of anyone else though.

Frank Black

Mickeroo wrote: »

Drew Barrymore.

Can't think of anyone else though.

I was wondering if it was because (mostly) male directors/producers were willing to work with male stars that had been in a ‘spot of bother’ whereas if a female character is perceived as being ‘difficult’ they get frozen out – it’s probably a bit of a boys club.

Mickeroo

black francis wrote: »

I was wondering if it was because (mostly) male directors/producers were willing to work with male stars that had been in a ‘spot of bother’ whereas if a female character is perceived as being ‘difficult’ they get frozen out – it’s probably a bit of a boys club.

Well we could go so far as to say this attitude reverberates through society as a whole, for example: pomiscuous male = playa, promiscuous female = whore, not that I want to go opening any cans of worms here

Kooli

pickarooney wrote: »

I can't even think of a memorable performance from a voice actress in an animated film which is really an area where there should be no discrimination based on age or looks.

No but there is gender discrimination.
I remember reading an interview with the director of 'Chicken Little' - Chicken Little was always supposed to be a girl, but the studio intervened and insisted it be changed to a boy (voiced by Zach Braff) because if it was a girl it would be a 'niche' movie for girls. The director was really upset cos he'd grown so attached to 'her'.

But it summarised for me what the movie industry is about - white, straight male is 'normal', everything else is 'other' and becomes the whole point of the movie.

Galvasean

Kooli wrote: »

But it summarised for me what the movie industry is about - white, straight male is 'normal', everything else is 'other' and becomes the whole point of the movie.

Wasn't there a big hoo-ha about the recent Disney version of The Princess and the Frog? something to do with the studio changing the main character's name as they felt it was too regal or something?
Also, is it just me or did anybody else find it weird how in the Blade movies all of Blade's love interests just happened to be black? It's almost as if the powers that be didn't think the audience would accept a white woman falling for a black man..

ztoical

Galvasean wrote: »

Wasn't there a big hoo-ha about the recent Disney version of The Princess and the Frog? something to do with the studio changing the main character's name as they felt it was too regal or something?

Her name was Maddy originally but some complained it sounded too close to Mammy Which would be considered an ethic slur in the states.

Frank Black

ztoical wrote: »

Her name was Maddy originally but some complained it sounded too close to Mammy Which would be considered an ethic slur in the states.

The most depressing aspect of it all is, I bet it does make a difference to a films performance.

pickarooney

Kooli wrote: »

No but there is gender discrimination.
I remember reading an interview with the director of 'Chicken Little' - Chicken Little was always supposed to be a girl, but the studio intervened and insisted it be changed to a boy (voiced by Zach Braff) because if it was a girl it would be a 'niche' movie for girls. The director was really upset cos he'd grown so attached to 'her'.

But it summarised for me what the movie industry is about - white, straight male is 'normal', everything else is 'other' and becomes the whole point of the movie.

Strangely I just got this film a few minutes ago... slightly ironic after Zach Braff spent eight years being called every girl's name under the sun.

bonerm

If there's any discrimination then it's on the part of the cinema going audience. If people wanted to see a 56 year old Kathleen Turner in mainstream movies then you can bet she be getting invited to make them.