Drink driving around car park

montane

Was just wondering if it is okay to drive under the influence of alcohol around a residents multi story car park. Does it fall under the definition of public place if the offence happens during night time when the gates are locked and only residents have access to the car park with a key fob.

Thanks

dermot_sheehan

“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge

gustafo

well if the gates are locked how are they supposed to get in ??

dermot_sheehan

It's fact dependent.

If the car park is a car park only for residents, then its probably not a public place.

I presume this is hypothetical, s. 13 Non Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 might be applicable to such conduct and s. 27 of the road traffic act 1961 allows driving bans to be given out for any offence involving use of or driving of a motor vehicle, regardless of whether its in a public place.

montane

gustafo wrote: »

well if the gates are locked how are they supposed to get in ??

Yeah but wondering if the gates are open during the day, can the car parks status as public place change dependent on time of day?

Also, what about the residents of the building. Do they not constitute public, or is it the case that anyone would have to be able to gain access in order for it to be a public place.

bath handle

The residents are a section of the public, not the public generally.

Resend

dermot_sheehan wrote: »

It's fact dependent.

If the car park is a car park only for residents, then its probably not a public place.

I presume this is hypothetical, s. 13 Non Fatal Offences Against the Person Act 1997 might be applicable to such conduct and s. 27 of the road traffic act 1961 allows driving bans to be given out for any offence involving use of or driving of a motor vehicle, regardless of whether its in a public place.

yes i think rta applies regardless of if it is a public place so long a the public, or some of them, have access to it

Keith186

Resend wrote: »

yes i think rta applies regardless of if it is a public place so long a the public, or some of them, have access to it

+1

That's it.

Milk & Honey

[1985] I.L.R.M. 290
Claire Stanbridge v Declan Healy and By Order Messrs Ensign Motor Policies at Lloyds (Notice Party)
1977 No. 4896

The important part of that statement is his reference to his interpretation of the meaning of the words ‘the public’ which he interprets as meaning the public generally and not the special class of members of the public who have occasion for business or social purposes to go to the farmhouse or any part of the farm itself.

I am further satisfied that the meaning to be attributed to the words ‘the public’ in the definition of a ‘public place’ contained in s. 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , is the public generally and not any particular class.

coylemj

The term 'the public' is meaningless if you take it to apply to a predefined section of the population.

The whole point about the RTA definition of a public place is that anyone without qualification can access the place with a vehicle so unless the place is open to the whole population it is not a public place under the RTA.

sitric05

montane wrote: »

Was just wondering if it is okay to drive under the influence of alcohol around a residents multi story car park. Does it fall under the definition of public place if the offence happens during night time when the gates are locked and only residents have access to the car park with a key fob.

Thanks

On a simpler level - if the gates are locked how are the guards going to know you are driving or get in to breathalyse you?

Or do they regularly setup a road-checkpoint in the middle of your empty carpark in the middle of the night?

Kosseegan

sitric05 wrote: »

On a simpler level - if the gates are locked how are the guards going to know you are driving or get in to breathalyse you?

Or do they regularly setup a road-checkpoint in the middle of your empty carpark in the middle of the night?

It is not unknown for the Guards to look through the gates of a Car Park. They have also tail-gated in and confronted a driver. Never underestimate the zeal of guards chasing suspect drunk drivers.

montane

coylemj wrote: »

The term 'the public' is meaningless if you take it to apply to a predefined section of the population.

The whole point about the RTA definition of a public place is that anyone without qualification can access the place with a vehicle so unless the place is open to the whole population it is not a public place under the RTA.

How about if it is accessible to the public generally between 9am and 6pm, but only to certain members of the public thereafter. Is it a public place between those hours, and not a public place at night?

Our man in Havana

Pretty much that is the case.

Victor

The common areas of an apartment building would generally be consider a public area and the Garda will enforce against anti-social behaviour in such locations (4am college parties are only fun for the other residents if the don't spread it across two floors of the building).

coylemj wrote: »

The term 'the public' is meaningless if you take it to apply to a predefined section of the population.

The whole point about the RTA definition of a public place is that anyone without qualification can access the place with a vehicle so unless the place is open to the whole population it is not a public place under the RTA.

But that isn't what the RTA says, is it?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html (Was this revised?)

“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;"

There is an apartment complex in the USA with 22,000 residents, surely that is public for the purpose of the RTA (if it was in Ireland)?

Just because the gates are closed at 11pm, doesn't mean that a visitor hasn't just left an apartment having been there since 3pm. Such a visitor is not an invitee (someone who had to be invited onto the property as opposed to just driving in).

To take the extreme, an army barracks is not a public place for the purpose of the act, Joe Bloggs can't just drive in without the guard giving the OK. Some workplaces would be similar, where only staff and specific visitors are allowed in. An apartment complex, I think not.

I think one test would be how many occupiers are there? A barracks has one (the army / Defence Forces), a workplace will have one (the employer), an apartment complex will have more than one (if we look at the substance of a management company it is a co-purchasing arrangement, not an occupier).

coylemj

montane wrote: »

How about if it is accessible to the public generally between 9am and 6pm, but only to certain members of the public thereafter. Is it a public place between those hours, and not a public place at night?

Yes.

A few years back a guy was charged with drunk driving in the car park of a hospital or hotel (I can't remember which) at a time of the day when the car park was open to the public. His lawyer tried to claim that since the car park closed for a certain period of the day, it followed that the place couldn't be defined as a 'public place' since it was not accessible for certain times of the day. I think it went to the High Court for a direction and the judge said that it was a public place at the time of the offence and the fact that it was closed at other times of the day was immaterial.

Milk & Honey

Victor wrote: »

The common areas of an aprtmetn building would generally be consider a public area and the Garda will enforce against anti-social behaviour in such locations (4am college parties are only fun for hte other residents if the don't spread it across two floors of the building).

But that isn't what the RTA says, is it?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html (Was this revised?)

"I am further satisfied that the meaning to be attributed to the words ‘the public’ in the definition of a ‘public place’ contained in s. 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 , is the public generally and not any particular class."


The High Court has construed it as quoted above. That is the definition the courts apply.

Victor wrote: »

There is an apartment complex in the USA with 22,000 residents, surely that is public for the purpose of the RTA (if it was in Ireland)?

No, it wouldn't. It is still a section of the public.

Victor wrote: »

Just because the gates are closed at 11pm, doesn't mean that a visitor hasn't just left an apartment having been there since 3pm. Such a visitor is not an invitee (someone who had to be invited onto the property as opposed to just driving in).

To take the extreme, an army barracks is not a public place for the purpose of the act, Joe Bloggs can't just drive in without the guard giving the OK. Some workplaces would be similar, where only staff and specific visitors are allowed in. An apartment complex, I think not.

I think one test would be how many occupiers are there? A barracks has one (the army / Defence Forces), a workplace will have one (the employer), an apartment complex will have more than one (if we look at the substance of a management company it is a co-purchasing arrangement, not an occupier).

It does not matter how many occupiers there are. Access is still limited to a class of people. An apartment complex is private property and any member of the public who feels like it is not free to drive in and park there, whether or not the gates are open. In a private house where the gate is left open there is no presumed invitation to members of the public to drive in if they feel like it. Anyone who drives in to either a private house or an apartment complex without either an express or implied invitation is a trespasser.
Some places can be public during specified hours such as car parks in shopping complexes. A person can be prosecuted successfully if they are detected during the public hours but not otherwise.