Partly Gay Erasure

Asry

By 'partly gay', I mean the AC/DCers like myself who'd go both ways. I just hate the offical term for it, as I link it in my head as being something that's slung at me in the George from time to time as an insult.

Has anybody had experience of this? Do people believe it exists?

diddlybit

Bisexual erasure? I think it exists, people only percieve of sexuality as fathomable as reading the gender of the person on your arm.

Robyn Ochs is a bisexual activist from the States who has campaigned against erasure for years. When she married her partner, many publications reported on the wedding and described her as a lesbian. :rolleyes:

Signed,

A fence-sitter

Asry

I'll have to look up any articles and stuff by that lady on the topic and see if it's a real thing. I feel kind of 'less' or something. Some lesbians have been mean to me sometimes! I'm sick of being called a fake straight! But straight guys generally love me...perverts :rolleyes:

Morag

Robyn Ochs is a wonderful, advocate, speaker and educator, the workshops she ran for the BI irish group in outhouse were very helpful. http://www.robynochs.com/

I can understand your feeling towards the term Bi if it's being used to put you down,
but honestly I think you need to seek out some more positive experiences and a chance to talk to other's who've been there. http://www.meetup.com/Dublin-Bi-Irish/

Asry

oh I am on that Irish meetup thing! I keep getting messaged by an overly-friendly man though :rolleyes:

I'll have a look at Robyn as well Thanks!

baby and crumble

yeah my GF gets annoyed about it, people assume she's gay when actually she's bi, and still digs on boys (even though they're smelly and we should throw rocks at them. )

TBH when i saw the thread title I was like "Erasure, I LOVE that band!!" and thought of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x34icYC8zA0

PARTAY!!!!!!!!!!!

AndrewJD

You mean some people don't just fancy the same sex, but they like both sexes? THEY LIKE BOYS AND GIRLS? *faints*

This is how I imagine some people think of it. It's another leap in understanding sexual attraction which a lot of people don't get. I'd like to think this will change as the perception of other parts of sexuality have. I hope so.

Asry

I KNOW!!! IT'S SICK!!!

In fairness, some of the reactions I've gotten are bizarre, but generally go along the lines that I'm somehow tainted or unclean. So I find myself going on the pull (not that I'd ever do that because I'm a good girl) as a lesbian. Which feels really weird.

It doesn't come up too often. Another general thing is that I'm just a slut, like.

All the straight people I know have never commented on it, it's always just been LGBT people, most commonly lesbians. Maybe they think it's the partly gay people who give LGBT a bad name? But judging from the Pride thread, it's the LGBT people who parade around in assless pants who give LGBT people a bad name :rolleyes::D

Killer_banana

It definitely exists. As diddlybit said people tend to just presume you're one or the other based on whoever you're with. I remember before my friend was making jokes about 'whoring me up' to attract the attention of a girl I liked and her friend instantly presumed I was gay even though earlier in the night she'd witnessed me trying to avoid an exboyfriend. The possibility of me liking both sexes just didn't seem to enter into her head at all.

And thanks Zoegh, that's going to be in my head for the next week. =P I played it without realising what song it was (I've only ever heard it on Scrubs so didn't know who it was by).

Morag

Asry wrote: »

oh I am on that Irish meetup thing! I keep getting messaged by an overly-friendly man though :rolleyes:

I'll have a look at Robyn as well Thanks!

I think I know who that is, he's just American and enthusiastic.
Look if your interested in going to the next meeting let me know and I'll go with you.

Most of the biphobia I have encounters has been from gay men and women and unfortunately it's a common experience esp in Dublin.

Aishae

when i initially came out as bi, one of the (straight) lads said 'jaysus, you're greedy' he was only messing but he was also half serious. lol though.
while i identify as lesbian - as its the cloest to what i am - and i have no interest in men. i wouldnt dismiss it if i ever ended up clicking with a bloke.

i wonder if the whole hostility towards the bi thing - apart from people saying they are bi as its fashionable at the mo (mad, i read it. must be true ) is that liking both sexes exists and is probably more common as many wont admit it. but a lot of folks want to know where everything (and i guess everyone) goes. and if youre bi then its harder to pidgeonhole you. im not sure if its even a concious wish to have everything 'in its place' or if its some kind of natural instinct or a remnant of the divide of the sexes.
as an example: toilets. lads go to the mens loo, ladies to the ladies loo. there was no inbetween. plenty of people are still put off by the very idea of a unisex toilet.

disclaimer: im not likening sexual orientation to toilets

AndrewJD

Sharrow wrote: »

Most of the biphobia I have encounters has been from gay men and women and unfortunately it's a common experience esp in Dublin.

I've seen a fair few people make comments like that here and I'm always surprised because I've never come across it (I'm not bi btw). Is it like aggresive, mean etc or is it more harmless but insensitive and insulting? It seems really sad that some people would do that when they know better...

Links234

I've noticed a lot of hostility from certain circles, not just towards bisexuals, but towards femme lesbian women too. A theme I see within bisexual erasure and femme erasure is often a need to politicize other women's sexual identities. I read something a while back from one woman who said something along the lines of.. women who aren't politically opposed to men can't really be considered lesbian. I wish I was joking about that. I've also read similar things that try to put a hierarchy on sexuality, and that never being in a relationship with someone of the other sex was the gold star so to speak. I find there tends to be too much mixing of politics and sexual identity, as if if you're not making a political statement with your gender or sexual identity, you're not doing it right, and that if you are or have slept with someone of the other sex you're betraying your sex. These are all extreme examples of course, but I think that sometimes bi erasure and femme erasure can come from the same politicizing of identities.

sorry, recent discourse on femme erasure on another website

Asry

AndrewJD wrote: »

I've seen a fair few people make comments like that here and I'm always surprised because I've never come across it (I'm not bi btw). Is it like aggresive, mean etc or is it more harmless but insensitive and insulting? It seems really sad that some people would do that when they know better...

It actually can be aggressive. From women, mostly. Not physically, but just with a force of feeling that kind of reminds me of the reaction of fundamental, extreme-right Christians to abortion. There have been some hurtful things said, but you laugh them off. Just the whole 'fake straight' thing again, and the general perception that I don't really know what I am. Believe me, I've tried to force myself to either end of the spectrum and stay there but I'm bang in the middle, I'm afraid. I don't even prefer one over the other.

It gets to the point where I feel embarrassed or ashamed of myself for mentioning my bf to gay people (and we've been living together for nearly 4 years now!!) I don't know very well, because their opinion of me goes down. Unless I dress gay, they'd just think I was straight. Actually, not even gay people, just gay women. The men generally don't care, I've found.

baby and crumble

I remember whenni was first on the scene after coming out I felt quite ostracised. The lesbians would look af me as not fitting- to girly for the butches, too butch for te femmes. Of course, when you're 18 you feel really insecure most of the time anyway, hut ido remember being completely blanked by a lot of women who didn't know 'what' I was by just looking at me. Does that make sense?

Now as I've gotten older I'm more secure in who I am and what it means. I have a greater appreciation of nuance, and of the world not being black and White. I just think some people never get that.

Also for some people it can be quite weird to see someone who is secure in themselves and who they are. It can be intimidating. Maybe that has something to do with it, I dunno.

I'm going to stop now because I'm pretty drunk ad just rambling now...

diddlybit

I think that there's an interesting overlap between issues that have been raised here and also in the thread on Pride. There's an image of a massive welcoming LGBTQ umpbrella that is often portrayed as some form of inclusive utopia, but in actual fact the reality can be quite prescriptive in regards to who is "gay enough" or who is "too gay". Many people felt uncomfortable that certain members of the community would be representing them in the media at Pride, and yet, the simple act of coming out as bisexual, isn't enough to warrent inclusion into the sacred circle of queerdom. (Sorry, it's early. )

As Links234 said, it's not just confined to bisexuality, but extends to other groups as well, such as femme lesbians. If I had a euro for everytime someone on this forum said something disparging about camp men or mentioned the term "straight acting", I would have a much bigger shoe collection than I do now. I hate to say it, but we are our own worst enemies when it comes to boxing people into rigid categories and there is some form of hierarchal system at work sometimes in LGBTQ circles.

Asry wrote: »

It gets to the point where I feel embarrassed or ashamed of myself for mentioning my bf to gay people (and we've been living together for nearly 4 years now!!) I don't know very well, because their opinion of me goes down. Unless I dress gay, they'd just think I was straight. Actually, not even gay people, just gay women. The men generally don't care, I've found.

This is just sad. I used to go out with a bisexual guy and we used to go to the G together. Was in college at the time and the LGBTQ Soc refused to acknowledge us either there, or in the bars at college, even though they all knew us and knew that we identified as bisexual. One night one of the committee members got drunk and confessed to me that she had kissed a guy. I couldn't see the big deal, but she was terrified that people would find out. She said that if some of the group found out there wsa a strong possibilty that they would stop talking to her. It was really depressing.

Links234

This is a fairly interesting video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQu_2hOannU

Asry

I just watched that video again. She's so hot! Damn her! I want handsleeves and a hat! Not to be speaking in front of a room like that.

The whole 'butch' and 'femme' thing sounds so retro though doesn't it? At least it does to me. Like it makes me think of the civil rights movement and feminist/queer theory. It's too polarising, I think. But the dichotomy clearly is still relevant.

baby and crumble

The butch/femme thing is in a way a misnomer. Many would paint me as butch, and I suppose I am. But I prefer to think of it as 'old school'. As in, I like to hold doors open for girls, walk my girlfriend home, give her my jacket, that kind of stuff. I just think it's polite, most of the time, but i guess it could be construed as butch mannerisms. Maybe.

I'm on a huge throwback buzz at the moment, I fall in love regularly with vintage cufflinks, with leather brogues, that kind of stuff. I guess part of it is butch (that I fall in love with vintage cufflinks rather than vintage hair things) but maybe part of it is me growing up and getting tired of the obsession with things that are new and shiny.

Asry

I love cufflinks. Where o where to buy French cuff shirts for women, o knowing one? I've been looking for ages.

And aw MAN I need to get me out of skirts and pearls and into a shirt and tie. It's been a long time. Although I do tend to think of such attire as my 'getting laid' attire (seeing as I've been with your man for nearly 6 years now, that's probably why it's been so long!), as girls tend to be all over you if you dress stereotypically. I don't know why??

I've been telling myself it's my boyish good looks and winning charm, but let's face it - it's the tie and the boots.