Ball must hit bottom of cup?

esker man

Guy chips in from fringe, ball rests against the flag in the hole without fully dropping. I'm next to putt, remove flag and another guy calls penalty against guy who chipped in because the ball didnt hit bottom of the cup.

Question is, if the ball hasnt/wont move and flag needs to be removed what happens?

AldilaMan

esker man wrote: »

Guy chips in from fringe, ball rests against the flag in the hole without fully dropping. I'm next to putt, remove flag and another guy calls penalty against guy who chipped in because the ball didnt hit bottom of the cup.

Question is, if the ball hasnt/wont move and flag needs to be removed what happens?

Rubbish - If the flag comes out and the ball falls into the hole then it was holded by the last shot i.e. the chip shot - no penalty. Where do these guys get these notions about the rules !

murphdogg11

Did you hand the ball back to the other player without allowing the ball to drop into the hole?

esker man

AldilaMan wrote: »

Rubbish - If the flag comes out and the ball falls into the hole then it was holded by the last shot i.e. the chip shot - no penalty. Where do these guys get these notions about the rules !

Ah, sorry, in removing the flag I lifted out the ball, so technically the ball didnt hit the bottom of the cup?

IITYWYBMAD

I'm not 100%, but I think the ball does have to be below the line of the hole. There may be some phraseology with regards to nomination, but I'd imagine as playing partners you're covered.

I know for a fact that you cannot remove the ball if it is still above the hole, while resting against the flag pole.

Basically, if this happens in the future, allow the person who chipped in, to adjust the flag, and take the ball from the hole.

bustercherry

AldilaMan wrote: »

Rubbish - If the flag comes out and the ball falls into the hole then it was holded by the last shot i.e. the chip shot - no penalty. Where do these guys get these notions about the rules !

I believe as long as the entire ball is below the surface of the green then it's considered holed. If it was not and the ball does not drop into the hole when the flag stick is removed, then the ball should be replaced on the lip without penalty. The player still has not holed out, if he doesn't then he occurs whatever penalty applicable. So the guy might be correct.

IITYWYBMAD

esker man wrote: »

Ah, sorry, in removing the flag I lifted out the ball, so technically the ball didnt hit the bottom of the cup?

Bang....into the arena of penalties and "you shouldn't have done that"...

Russman

So, did the ball come out when you took the flag out ? How did the guy know the ball hadn't hit the bottom of the cup ? I'm not really sure I follow the sequence of events.

As far as I know, and I don't have a copy of the rules handy so I'm happy to stand corrected, I think amateurs must remove the flag before the ball.

Pros don't have to, and can pick the ball out without removing the flag.

Edit: just seen the post where you say you basically took the ball out with the flag, thats not allowed I'm almost sure.

pitchnputtking

Yes the ball has to hit the bottom of the cup.

If its wedged and not gone done u can remove the flag in a way that allows the ball to drop.

Pulling the flag and thus removing the ball too is not allowed

bustercherry

pitchnputtking wrote: »

Yes the ball has to hit the bottom of the cup.

If its wedged and not gone done u can remove the flag in a way that allows the ball to drop.

Pulling the flag and thus removing the ball too is not allowed

From the R&A rulebook -

"Holed
A ball is “holed” when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole
and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole".

http://www.randa.org/~/media/RandA/Downloads%20and%20Free%20Publications/RULES%20OF%20GOLF%202008-2011%20Pocket%20Edition.ashx

pitchnputtking

what if all of the ball is not below the surface.

bustercherry

pitchnputtking wrote: »

what if all of the ball is not below the surface.

Then it's not holed, as per the definition I posted.

Russman

bustercherry wrote: »

From the R&A rulebook -

"Holed
A ball is “holed” when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole
and all of it is below the level of the lip of the hole".

http://www.randa.org/~/media/RandA/Downloads%20and%20Free%20Publications/RULES%20OF%20GOLF%202008-2011%20Pocket%20Edition.ashx

Guess that settles it then

pitchnputtking

bustercherry wrote: »

Then it's not holed, as per the definition I posted.

Ok

GreeBo

You removed it not him, so he gets to replace it and then remove the flag in a way that allows the ball to drop correctly.
He would not be penalised for you interfering with his ball.

PhilipMarlowe

It's not a penalty to do it (assuming it wasn't a match) but it's dumb
You should have replaced the flag and the ball and allow the player to remove the flag himself (in such a way as the ball would drop).

Myksyk

Rule 17 - The Flagstick

17-4 Ball Resting Against Flagstick

When a player’s ball rests against the flagstick in the hole and the ball is not holed, the player or another person authorised by him may move or remove the flagstick, and if the ball falls into the hole, the player is deemed to have holed out with his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if moved, must be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

fullstop

Russman wrote: »

As far as I know, and I don't have a copy of the rules handy so I'm happy to stand corrected, I think amateurs must remove the flag before the ball.

Pros don't have to, and can pick the ball out without removing the flag.

Nonsense, where did you get that from?

dines08

GreeBo wrote: »

He would not be penalised for you interfering with his ball.

Although he might enjoy it 

Sandwlch

Licksy wrote: »

You should have replaced the flag and the ball and allow the player to remove the flag himself (in such a way as the ball would drop).

GreeBo wrote: »

You removed it not him, so he gets to replace it and then remove the flag in a way that allows the ball to drop correctly.
He would not be penalised for you interfering with his ball.

Are you sure about that one guys?

I thought the player that hit the ball does in fact forfeit his chance of getting the ball into the hole without playing another stroke if some removes the ball as in this case, or the ball does not drop when someone else removes the flag. If someone does that, then the ball is placed on the edge of the hole and so he is obliged to play a stroke to hole it. On the basis that you are unlikely to realistically be able to replace it leaning against the flagstick. I remember getting advice to refrain from attempting to remove the flagstick in such a situation and wait for the player to try his luck himself, so as not to possibly cost him a stroke. Admit I cant remember where though.

Russman

fullstop wrote: »

Nonsense, where did you get that from?

I thought I remembered it from a few years ago, as I said, I'm happy to stand corrected on it. I was sure there was some incident that stuck in my mind. Maybe it was one of those rules that was changed 2 or 3 years ago. Then again, maybe not.

Sandwlch

Sandwlch wrote: »

Are you sure about that one guys?

You are indeed. Learn something everyday.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-17/#17-4/3