What if it was OUR country?

zephyrz

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

Nodin

zephyrz wrote: »

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

Well, if we were being ruled by a dictator, I think we'd be thanking him.

Latchy

What ?

What ?

What ?

zephyrz

zephyrz wrote: »

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

We wouldn't have invited him over?

zephyrz

Nodin wrote: »

Well, if we were being ruled by a dictator, I think we'd be thanking him.

America have been supporting these dictators for years

Nodin

zephyrz wrote: »

America have been supporting these dictators for years

You appeared to talking specifically. Now you're talking generally. It might be helpful if you spelt out exactly what you're trying to get at.

Nodin

Papa Smut wrote: »

We wouldn't have invited him over?

Well, some would, some wouldn't......bit like now, but with shooting.

zephyrz

Nodin wrote: »

You appeared to talking specifically. Now you're talking generally. It might be helpful if you spelt out exactly what you're trying to get at.

I'm trying to keep if simple for someone like you to understand, someone who thinks America care about civilians in these dictatorship countries! If America were really trying to promote democracy, they would not be arming these dictators and giving them billions of dollars all these years!

The Waltzing Consumer

zephyrz wrote: »

I'm trying to keep if simple for someone like you to understand, someone who thinks America care about civilians in these dictatorship countries! If America were really trying to promote democracy, they would not be arming these dictators and giving them billions of dollars all these years!

He asked a pretty straightforward question. No need for the childish attitude and rude reply. You seemed to talk specifically, Libya?, then switched to general giving out. Which is it?

Rented Mule

zephyrz wrote: »

America have been supporting these dictators for years

What if American Corporations pulled all of their jobs out of Ireland ?

Nodin

zephyrz wrote: »

I'm trying to keep if simple for someone like you to understand, !

I'm forever grateful.

zephyrz wrote: »

someone who thinks America care about civilians in these dictatorship countries!!

Your psychic powers are truly l33t.

zephyrz wrote: »

If America were really trying to promote democracy, they would not be arming these dictators and giving them billions of dollars all these years!

.....thats some sort of general dig at the US. Now, the Libyan business is backed by the UN.

zephyrz

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

He asked a pretty straightforward question. No need for the childish attitude and rude reply. You seemed to talk specifically, Libya?, then switched to general giving out. Which is it?

Yes well I was trying to talk specifically about what would the Irish people's reaction to Obama be if he was doing these horrible acts in our country, I doubt he would of got that significant applause and cheers he got a few days ago!

KeithAFC

He hasn't been to NI i think. Thank christ for that.

Witcher

KeithAFC wrote: »

He hasn't been to NI i think. Thank christ for that.

Thank Christ he hasn't indeed...for his sake:pac:

KeithAFC

Blay wrote: »

Thank Christ he hasn't indeed...for his sake:pac:

I would have to go get my confederate flag put up if he was coming up here.

Rented Mule

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would have to go get my confederate flag put up if he was coming up here.

I'm sure that there would be comments of 'racial overtones' if that flag was flown in his presence.

KeithAFC

Rented Mule wrote: »

I'm sure that there would be comments of 'racial overtones' if that flag was flown in his presence.

Yeah. By idiots. I did the same when Bush came to N.I.

Yahew

This thread is not worthy of Politics.

Poccington

zephyrz wrote: »

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

In all three situations, there's a very good chance I'd end up dead.


So God bless the West.

Liam Byrne

We don't have oil, so they won't invade us.

K-9

Liam Byrne wrote: »

We don't have oil, so they won't invade us.

I'm seriously confused.

We've €3 Trillion's worth in oil and gas.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

K-9 wrote: »

I'm seriously confused.

We've €3 Trillion's worth in oil and gas.

Yeah but we've already sold that off. No need to steal it from us.

Dub.

Rented Mule wrote: »

What if American Corporations pulled all of their jobs out of Ireland ?

Didn`t Hillary Clinton claim that Irish business provides more jobs in the USA per head of population than US business provides in Ireland?

They really aren`t doing us any special favours you know.

Edit; I was actually underplaying it here . Clinton claims the jobs share is nearly even. The USA provides ninety thousand jobs in Ireland , while Ireland provides eighty thousand jobs in the USA.

proof here at five minutes and forty five seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knUJAQZz8z4

Laminations

zephyrz wrote: »

Yes well I was trying to talk specifically about what would the Irish people's reaction to Obama be if he was doing these horrible acts in our country, I doubt he would of got that significant applause and cheers he got a few days ago!

So this thread amounts to an asinine wonderment about what would happen if one action in one context was applied to another context.

What if America invaded/went to war with Ireland for no reason? Irish people wouldn't be happy.

Are you trying to say there are no reasons that America is in conflict in countries overseas? Or just no reasons you agree with? Undoubtedly part of the context for conflict involves self interest, be that oil or trade or stability. But american interests can often align with global (and regional/local interests) unless you think people like the oppressive murderous regimes America attempts to replace. Why would America drop bombs on Ireland? You're transplanting contexts.

I've got some more for you to ponder on.

What if John Crown operated on patients that weren't sick? The patients wouldn't be happy
What if you cheered for your football team in church? The church goers wouldn't be happy
What if you posted AH quality threads in politics?....

ciarak7511

zephyrz wrote: »

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

The we wouldn't be friends

later12

I think the poster has raised a valid issue.

It is natural, in some respects, to overlook the failures of a man whom we admire, or who many might see as a modern hero. In overlooking his foreign policy failures to gain some 'closeness' (real or imaginary), we ought to at least admit that we are doing this.

Personally I find a lot to admire in Obama, but I also see some aspects of his politics which I find disappointing. For a man who had heightened so many - perhaps unrealistic - expectations, this is unfortunate. Yet on a purely anecdotal level, any mention of this disappointment with Obama has, in my experience, been met with ridicule or even accusations of hysteria. Especially so in Ireland over the past week. The implication is that dissenters ought to pull themselves together and join the crowd.

But while Obama has captured hope in soundbytes and iconic wallposters, it has always been bigger than him. Hope is not trademarked to Obama, and he has not significantly satisfied the hope, and the potential and possibility that others can imagine, or aspire to. The derision that many of these people seem to face, in dissent of Obama's politics is, in that regard, a little ironic.

Perhaps the more appropriate slogan for such cynics ought to be 'Yes we can... but lets not'.

Laminations

Ok, so if the discussion is intended to be on Obama's foreign policy then what parts do you (or the OP) disagree with? And Obama's policies may be the result of the realities of running a world superpower rather than a reflection of the mans values. I don't particularly like American foreign policy in general but I don't think there is a country I could name whose foreign policy I admire.

I don't admire the 'none of our business, no comment' policies of some countries and I don't admire the 'that's wrong but we aint going to intervene' policies of others. And I definitely don't admire the general 'let's have a chat for months while thousands are killed, we might get a resolution (in document form) by the end of it' policy of the UN.

So how should America behave on the world stage?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I think a very valid question is, what if he was refusing to prosecute members of his military who had engaged in torture of Irish people?

Oh wait, we've already invited politicians like that here several times. And nobody seems to care.

RMD

zephyrz wrote: »

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

1) He'd probably be very unpopular here, it's not going to happen though.

2) What country are they occupying? I'm guessing this is some typical hippy crap in relation to Afghanistan. Well who would you rather have? Western coalition forces trying to put in a place a democratic society elected by the people or would you prefer the Taliban to be in a place, a group who have negligible support and have no problems denying basic human rights, making the populace live under an extremely strict interpretation of Sharia Law and will butcher a person who decides to oppose them.

3) What rebels are they supporting? Show me proof how these rebels will in turn harm the country they want to govern.

Batsy

zephyrz wrote: »

What if it was Ireland Obama was bombing?
What if it was Ireland been occupied by US military?
What if it was the Irish government America was trying to overthrow by supporting rebels?

You probably wouldn't be too pleased because Ireland is a democracy and it has a democratically elected government.

This is unlike Libya, which is not a democracy and doesn't have a democratically elected government and Gadaffi, a brutal dictator, is so determined to stay in power, even though his people don't want him to remain in power anymore and want their country to be a democracy, that he is willing to kill and maim his own people.

The majority of the Libyan people are supportive of this action that is being taken in their country to rid it of a brutal, murderous dictator and I remember the joyous scenes in Tripoli when the NATO military action, supported by the UN, was announced.

One country has a democratically elected government that doesn't brutally suppress and murder its own people, and therefore its people will not be supportive of such action to remove its government from power, and another country has a military dictatorship which brutally suppresses and murders its own people and therefore those people will be supportive of such action.

Batsy

zephyrz wrote: »

I'm trying to keep if simple for someone like you to understand, someone who thinks America care about civilians in these dictatorship countries! If America were really trying to promote democracy, they would not be arming these dictators and giving them billions of dollars all these years!

I don't know why you are mentioning America. This is a British and French led NATO operation which has the support of the UN. The Americans are now taking a back seat.

later12

Laminations wrote: »

Ok, so if the discussion is intended to be on Obama's foreign policy then what parts do you (or the OP) disagree with?

Most of us could write very tedious and tremendously uninteresting theses on our gripes with US foreign policy. My own personal disagreements are of an environmental concern but going on about it would be an immaterial distraction to this thread. I am merely defending the right of the OP to raise his or her legitimate concerns about the perceived hypocrisy of the relationship that Ireland seems to aspire to enjoy with the United States, when so much of what the US is engaged in is challenging to the important principles that many of us would wish upheld.

I think what the OP is raising is an important check to the slight hysteria that has surrounded the Obama visit.

thebman

K-9 wrote: »

I'm seriously confused.

We've €3 Trillion's worth in oil and gas.

Yeah but we seem to have misplaced it but I'm sure we've found it before because some people seem so confident it exists.

However they keep refusing to give us a map

Despite claiming we sold it off already :pac:

We are selling vaporware apparently.

Laminations

later10 wrote: »

Most of us could write very tedious and tremendously uninteresting theses on our gripes with US foreign policy. My own personal disagreements are of an environmental concern but going on about it would be an immaterial distraction to this thread.

That's a lame response. 'I have many gripes, none of which I'll relay'

I am merely defending the right of the OP to raise his or her legitimate concerns about the perceived hypocrisy of the relationship that Ireland seems to aspire to enjoy with the United States, when so much of what the US is engaged in is challenging to the important principles that many of us would wish upheld.

If you want to defend the right to raise legitimate concerns then you need to point out what these legitimate concerns are. For example what 'principles' of ours do the US challenge, and how could they go about their business in a way that does not challenge these principles while maintaining their national security and supporting regional stability. Can you give an example of another major player on the world stage who is engaged in conflicts in a more principled way? The OP needs to give specific examples of foreign policy (initiated by Obama as there are realistic difficulties in altering a path already taken) that they disagree with (and that they think Ireland should disagree with) and suggest how they could go about things differently to achieve their aims in a more amicable manner.

I support the right of reasoned argument, 'the USA are bad' and hence 'we shouldn't welcome Obama' is not reasoned argument especially when it is phrased as a hypothetical situation which places Ireland in a position it is not in, i.e. in conflict with America

later12

Laminations wrote: »

That's a lame response. 'I have many gripes, none of which I'll relay'

I have already explained this point, but true to form you are probably only half-reading. I am not attempting to convey my own personal political philosophy, I am referring to a principle that it is legitimate and even useful to question the hypocrisy of the glowing praise which Obama has received in light of what many people resident in Ireland would perceive as a US foreign policy which injures the principles of a lot of Irish men and women. This may be in relation to interventionist foreign policy, deference to due process and climate change, among others.

I'm not personally speaking for the OP, I'm just defending the principle of asking questions of support for Obama.

Can you give an example of another major player on the world stage who is engaged in conflicts in a more principled way?

Yes, the European Union.

Coillte_Bhoy

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would have to go get my confederate flag put up if he was coming up here.

Now, that doesnt surprise me:mad:

KeithAFC

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Now, that doesnt surprise me:mad:

Or the United States Union flag. You know, since it had slavery and all that.:rolleyes:

Son Of A Vidic

Batsy wrote: »

I don't know why you are mentioning America. This is a British and French led NATO operation which has the support of the UN. The Americans are now taking a back seat.

Have you noted how the pressure lessened on Gaddafi when the Americans stepped back? In recent days the pressure seems to have picked up again, amazing how it seemed to coincide with Obama's trip to Europe. It's a bit like the teacher coming back into the classroom.

Hermy

We've been getting fncked in the ass by successive Irish governments over the past decade and nothing has happened so I dare say life would go on as normal if the U.S. invaded our shores.

Coillte_Bhoy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Or the United States Union flag. You know, since it had slavery and all that.:rolleyes:

I have no idea what that means and neither i suspect do you. Why would you fly a confederate flag if Obama visited the 06? You dont seem very clued in on the American Civil War.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

He has a point. Slavery existed in the Union throughout the Civil War. The majority of Union soldiers didn't wish to see slavery abolished.

Coillte_Bhoy

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

He has a point. Slavery existed in the Union throughout the Civil War. The majority of Union soldiers didn't wish to see slavery abolished.

I think it's stretching it for anyone to categorically say what the soldiers views were though i suspect you may be correct. I still dont get what he is trying to say and why he would display a confederate flag? Well actually i probably do....

KeithAFC

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

I think it's stretching it for anyone to categorically say what the soldiers views were though i suspect you may be correct. I still dont get what he is trying to say and why he would display a confederate flag? Well actually i probably do....

Because i am a supporter of the South and its southern culture and the independence movement.

later12

Well, who doesn't? That's what I always say.

Any other controversial movements you support, keithafc?

Eliot Rosewater

This thread never was Politics standard, and the route it went down only confirmed that. Closed.

/mod.