Navan Railway

tallaghtfornia

Hi All,

Anyone any update on when(or if) IE will complete this line, I notice from IEs website that they have updated the plans and also have some public consultations anyone know how these went ?

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/navan_railway_line.asp

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/navan_drawing_schematics.asp

BrianD

There are no plans to begin it never mind complete it! The only thing underway are public consultations and other work that will decide the route.

It's unlikely that there will be money any time in the near future to start construction,

J Cheever Loophole

Given the predicted rise in population of Navan over the next decade, is there any reason why the existing line to Drogheda can't be upgraded to accommodate passenger traffic, on the assumption that it is cheaper than building the proposed new line?

L1011

Lack of slots on the Northern Line + complete lack of will on the part of Irish Rail to do so.

Trains via Drogheda wouldn't be madly fast so would have to compete with buses too.

DWCommuter

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Given the predicted rise in population of Navan over the next decade, is there any reason why the existing line to Drogheda can't be upgraded to accommodate passenger traffic, on the assumption that it is cheaper than building the proposed new line?

No Comment!

J Cheever Loophole

MYOB wrote: »

Lack of slots on the Northern Line + complete lack of will on the part of Irish Rail to do so.

Trains via Drogheda wouldn't be madly fast so would have to compete with buses too.

I seem to recall reading about an estimated population figure for Navan of 60,000, which would be reached before 2020 (I'm open to correction on both figures). Would we not be reaching a stage very quickly where such a commuter population, less than an hour from Dublin, would necessitate a direct rail link, thus making arguments about lack of funding, redundant?

bryaner

They were out the Windtown road the other day doing something at the proposed north Navan station..

newmug

Why cant they just put a few DMU sets on the existing line?

DWCommuter

bryaner wrote: »

They were out the Windtown road the other day doing something at the proposed north Navan station..

YEAH. Having a laugh at the thought of it.

DWCommuter

newmug wrote: »

Why cant they just put a few DMU sets on the existing line?

We have moved beyond that prospect at this stage and no closer.

Navan doesn't need a rail link anymore. Celtic Tiger Ireland is gone and they got a motorway.

bryaner

DWCommuter wrote: »

We have moved beyond that prospect at this stage and no closer.

Navan doesn't need a rail link anymore. Celtic Tiger Ireland is gone and they got a motorway.

I'd love a railway in Navan, would be very feckin handy.

ChristopherUno

When my mam moved to Navan in 1990 they were promising a commuter rail link with Dublin within the next five(?) years, she thought it'd be handy for me & my brother to get to college when we were older (we were one at the time). 21 now and still waiting, I won't hold my breath...

newmug

DWCommuter wrote: »

We have moved beyond that prospect at this stage and no closer.

Navan doesn't need a rail link anymore. Celtic Tiger Ireland is gone and they got a motorway.

Thanks to dempsey. Minister for the "setting-up-sons-in-law-as-auctioneers-to-deal-with-govt-procured-road-building-land-for-a-nice-comission", department.

bryaner

DWCommuter wrote: »

YEAH. Having a laugh at the thought of it.

Can't say I saw anyone laughing..:rolleyes:

n97 mini

I would have thought the population of Navan will fall over the next decade or so though emigration and the fact that it's on the outer radius of the commuter belt and with falling property prices people will opt to move out of Navan and in closer to Dublin.

Victor

Those are the old drawings from about three months ago. They have developed most of the drawings to railway order stage.


Biggest change from the February drawings is a 400m tunnel at Cannistown and a shorter tunnel between Cannistown and Navan, both due to the M3.

Cannistown - existing M3 underpass http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&ll=53...260.88,,0,7.76 The 400m tunnel brings the railway from the low level under the M3 to the higher level of the ground further north. Equivalent location on OSI http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,687921,763746,7,3

Location of bridge at second tunnel: http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&t=h&l...,0.027874&z=16 The railway will pass over the lower road (the spur to the motorway) and then under the minor road. http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&t=h&l...,0.006968&z=18 The tunnel is under this field: http://maps.google.ie/?ie=UTF8&t=h&l...,0.006968&z=18 Equivalent location on OSI http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,688040,765304,7,3

Stations and major structures
* Navan North sidings - sidings for stabling 2-3 trains - immediately north of station.
* Navan North - Park & Ride - 3 platforms -> stabling 2-3 trains - manned station.
* River Blackwater bridge - existing refurbished.
* Navan Central - possible bus connection - 2 platforms - manned station.
* Tunnel and bridge at M3 spur.
* Cannistown tunnel at M3.
* River Boyne Bridge - existing refurbished.
* Kilmessan - Park & Ride - 2 platforms - unmanned station.
* Dunshauglin - Park & Ride and likely bus connection - 2 platforms - unmanned(?) station.
* Pace - existing station - Park & Ride - 2 platforms

There are quite a few existing and new bridges to be built. To my knowledge, no level crossings (part of the original design philosophy 150 years ago), except Kells Road in Navan.

Most stations, except Navan Central will use ramps, with no lifts. Navan Central will be similar in layout to Phoenix Park station with the building over the platforms.

bryaner wrote: »

They were out the Windtown road the other day doing something at the proposed north Navan station..

I asked them to sort out the footpath. http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=navan&aq=&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=10.031562,28.54248&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Navan,+County+Meath&ll=53.666949,-6.700609&spn=0.004863,0.013937&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.666646,-6.700068&panoid=y_S9qS2WgiI7VQ1Gvvsqtw&cbp=12,128.82,,0,-0.55

tallaghtfornia

Thank for the update Victor, Although at this stage I can not see this going ahead for a long time

positron

MYOB wrote: »

Lack of slots on the Northern Line + complete lack of will on the part of Irish Rail to do so.

Services starting from and ending at Drogheda could start and end in Navan - and make them longer (whatever the technical word for that is - adding more carriages etc)

MYOB wrote: »

Trains via Drogheda wouldn't be madly fast so would have to compete with buses too.

That's so true - I think Northern line is already losing out to buses as is. No wonder when Drogheda-Connolly takes over an hour. It used to be 50 minutes or so when I started commuting. After 6 years, I have stopped commuting by train now.

Niles

I think there could still be a problem with running it as a connection - there is overcrowding on many Drogheda services as it is without adding Navan passengers into the mix. At the moment the platforms can only take eight carriages - the Railway Safety Committee would have a fit if it was suggested more be added (same reason why you can't run a six car Intercity railcar on the Rosslare line).

If the Airport Dart was to go ahead they would probably hopefully add additional capacity to the Belfast line in the Dublin area, which would (hypothetically speaking) allow extra trains from the likes of Navan to run. Although with the line to M3 Parkway already open it would make more sense to pursue with the Dunshaughlin route when funding permits.

dynamick

The motorway they built to Navan is mostly empty. It would make no sense to build commuter rail to Navan when there is no demand, while there are routes that would be full if they were built tomorrow.

Navan population will shrink because its industries (carpets, furniture, fabrics) cannot compete. People will choose to live in suburbs closer to the city where there is a surplus of housing at reducing prices.

There was a chance while we had a minister for transport from trim but he chose to build a road to Navan and a railway line from Ennis to Athenry and he's gone now.

There will be no railway to Navan in our lifetimes.

L1011

dynamick wrote: »

The motorway they built to Navan is mostly empty.

Due to tolling. Wait till they put some more traffic 'calming' and GoSafe zones along the R147 and the M3 will pick up.

CIE

dynamick wrote: »

The motorway they built to Navan is mostly empty. It would make no sense to build commuter rail to Navan when there is no demand, while there are routes that would be full if they were built tomorrow.

Navan population will shrink because its industries (carpets, furniture, fabrics) cannot compete. People will choose to live in suburbs closer to the city where there is a surplus of housing at reducing prices.

There was a chance while we had a minister for transport from trim but he chose to build a road to Navan and a railway line from Ennis to Athenry and he's gone now.

There will be no railway to Navan in our lifetimes.

Wow, this is a lot of anti-Irish propaganda, isn't it. Who can't Irish industries compete with? Germany's? Well, better fight back against the masters of the European Union then.

Lapin

bryaner wrote: »

Can't say I saw anyone laughing..:rolleyes:

This guy is.

Victor

The May 2011 are now up.

positron wrote: »

Services starting from and ending at Drogheda could start and end in Navan - and make them longer (whatever the technical word for that is - adding more carriages etc)

Its possible, but not simple. Either the train needs to carry our a reversing movement at Drogheda or you build another platform (which may mean you have to widen the low bridge over Dublin Road). the track and signalling from Navan to Drogheda would need improvement.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=McBride+Station,+Dublin+Road,+Drogheda&aq=0&sll=53.717905,-6.348567&sspn=0.019428,0.055747&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=McBride+Station,+Dublin+Rd,+Drogheda,+County+Louth&ll=53.711447,-6.334535&spn=0.001221,0.003484&t=h&z=19
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,710024,774829,7,10

CIE wrote: »

Wow, this is a lot of anti-Irish propaganda, isn't it. Who can't Irish industries compete with? Germany's? Well, better fight back against the masters of the European Union then.

Eh, no. Egypt, India, Burma ...

dermo88

There was a time when I had rather strong feelings on this project. Time and apathy have somewhat toned down my stance.

What is astounding in the extreme is the sabotage on the part of the former Minister of Transport Noel Dempsey.

There has not been a sabotage on this scale in terms of rail transport mismanagement in Ireland since 1965. That was the year that the UTA (Ulster Transport Authority) closed down the Portadown to Derry/Londonderry railway line. It was subsequently covered over by the A1 Motorway as far as Dungannon, blocking the formation and permanently preventing a future reopening.

Clonsilla to Navan is almost its equivalent in the Republic. I will state clearly that Loman Dempsey, the former ministers brother is linked to the toll road contract for the M3 Motorway.

(a) It is clear that there was a conflict of interest on the part of Noel Dempsey through familial links, but these have never been probed or revealed.
(b) It is clear that having the waste water pipe and manhole covers underneath the old railway formation that it will be almost impossible to reopen the line. This was done while Mr Dempsey was on Meath County Council.
(c) Lord Craigavon, during his tenure as Minister of Industry and Commerce (the Ministry with jurisdiction over rail transport), in Northern Ireland was a major shareholder in a road haulage company in the 1960's. There was a clear conflict of interest on two fronts.

- That line went through Catholic/Nationalist areas and 70% of the workforce of the former GNRI (Great Northern Railway of Ireland) were Catholic/Nationalist.
- It was in Lord Craigavons interest after the almost inevitable conclusions of the Benson Report of 1963 that the freight system would close, and much of the former system in Ulster would close.
- It was in Lord Craigavons interest that the freight would shift to road.

Although.....in spite of the above points, the line in question was decrepit, equipment was obsolete, and the costs of saving it likely outweighed the benefits as viewed back then. After all hindsight is a great teacher, yet it is viewed overall as the only mainline closure in the whole Island that was a major long term mistake.
_________________________________________________________________

How does this relate to the Clonsilla to Navan saga and Noel Dempsey's heinous mismanagement.

Fill in the gaps.

It is......yet again.....the trailer load of manure that has permeated and infested Fianna Fail in particular since the rise of Haughey.

Conflict of interest, cronyism, nepotism, are all blatantly clear and evident in relation to the former administrations mismanagement, lies, propaganda and more besides.

In 2011, Clonsilla to Navan is the 21st answer to Portadown to Derry/Londonderry.

fh041205

Victor wrote: »

The May 2011 are now up.Its possible, but not simple. Either the train needs to carry our a reversing movement at Drogheda or you build another platform (which may mean you have to widen the low bridge over Dublin Road). the track and signalling from Navan to Drogheda would need improvement.

And possibly cutting into the car park, which has been criticised heavily before for being too small to cope. Although that may have changed over the last two years with the lessening of passenger numbers. I suspect the track from Drogheda to Navan would be in a terrible state now after years of heavy Tara trains battering it anyway.

Captain Chaos

fh041205 wrote: »

I suspect the track from Drogheda to Navan would be in a terrible state now after years of heavy Tara trains battering it anyway.

The track from the Drogheda signal cabin to the Platin cement works and possibly a bit beyond has been relayed recently with old track panels from the Cork main line. There is strict speed restrictions on that line so the taras are hardly battering the line that much, think it's 15-20mph. They are limited to 50mph on the main northern line as it is as that is the tara wagon's top rated speed as far as I can recall.

bryaner

dynamick wrote: »

The motorway they built to Navan is mostly empty. It would make no sense to build commuter rail to Navan when there is no demand, while there are routes that would be full if they were built tomorrow.

Navan population will shrink because its industries (carpets, furniture, fabrics) cannot compete. People will choose to live in suburbs closer to the city where there is a surplus of housing at reducing prices.

There was a chance while we had a minister for transport from trim but he chose to build a road to Navan and a railway line from Ennis to Athenry and he's gone now.

There will be no railway to Navan in our lifetimes.

What drivel, Navan carpets is closed since 2003 and was on the demise for 10 years before that, Navans furniture industry is more or less gone this 20 years (all imports) don't know what your on about regarding fabrics.

Yet Navan without any of these industries was the fastest growing town in the country in the boom years, so I cant see how its population will shrink so drastically seeing as the industries you mention have not been here for years to prop it up.

I'll have a side bet that there will be a link in my lifetime for sure.

Edit: + The motorway has been pretty busy anytime I was on it..

Judgement Day

bryaner - You're in denial, there's no money and unless your going to live as long as Methuselah you can forget any extension of the Dunboyne line to Navan.

bryaner

Judgement Day, my inside information man tells me different..

DWCommuter

Gentlemen.

All of us got sucked into the Celtic Tiger railwaymania. Now that the arse has fallen out of it, we must stand back, rid our minds of the propaganda and really examine what we were thinking when expecting a railway to be built to a town that is a testament to the awful planning decisions that took place in this country. Navans growth and development was never on a par that would justify both a motorway and a railway. I'm confidant that the Government knew this and delighted I had the ability to come down from the lofty heights of expecting it.

dowlingm

If Navan-Dunboyne opened (unlikely in current climate etc) surely closure of Navan-Drogheda would follow close behind, with Tara traffic redirected via Clonsilla?

shamwari

Tara Mines will, in all probability, be closed by the end of the decade as the mine will be exhausted. Anyone want to bet the the line will close with it?

seanmacc

The Navan line is infeasible without DART underground being built. The Connolly approach is jammed as it is and no level of signal upgrading will solve this.

The country is in a major depression and will be for the next few years, which is the reason these infrastructural projects should be built now. Our transport system is third world compared to the rest of Europe and we need to catch up. Plus when these projects get stalled r cancelled because of cost there people seem to forget the multiplier effect.

foggy_lad

shamwari wrote: »

Tara Mines will, in all probability, be closed by the end of the decade as the mine will be exhausted. Anyone want to bet the the line will close with it?

Would anyone except deluded fools expect it be kept open with empty passenger trains or wagons from the closed mine running?

bryaner

shamwari wrote: »

Tara Mines will, in all probability, be closed by the end of the decade as the mine will be exhausted. Anyone want to bet the the line will close with it?

You obviously don't know anyone in the mines..

Losty Dublin

shamwari wrote: »

Tara Mines will, in all probability, be closed by the end of the decade as the mine will be exhausted. Anyone want to bet the the line will close with it?

There are apparently fairly rich zinc deposits around the area of Navan Racecourse and moving out towards Kells that have not yet been tapped into or looked at. In addition to that, there are seams of less pure zinc ore that can be worked around the current mine; this was estimated in 2007 to give at least 15 years of life to the operation.

shamwari

bryaner wrote: »

You obviously don't know anyone in the mines..

Well, explain this

and this

and this

Certainly in the case of the first one above, this claim was part of the mines management deposition in a labour court case

oh and I almost forgot, the 2018 closure was brought to my attention my someone working in the mine.

bryaner

shamwari wrote: »

Well, explain this

and this

and this

Certainly in the case of the first one above, this claim was part of the mines management deposition in a labour court case

oh and I almost forgot, the 2018 closure was brought to my attention my someone working in the mine.

Ha ha funny..

robclay26

look at what they built!
they built M3 parkway, with a massive carpark. They thought this would be a cheap fix to providing navan commuters a rail link. Sure if you drive to M3, ye might as well continue on into the city the rest of the way. Load of ballocks!
Navan would work well, even in this recession, at least it will be built and operating for when things pick up sometime in the future.
I agree, that the Connolly area is congested with trains and a link/connector is required, but would a solution of opening the boradstone section work? its not that far 1km as the crow flys from The top of O'Connell st or just run them direct into Docklands like what currently happens?

I think one really crazy thing about the Navan line is that when they built the motor way the never planned for the railway to come back. near navan, the link road from the M3 into the town cuts down deep into the hill where the rail used to go, and they left no proper land for a bridge. the M3 cuts the old line east of navan, but this is in the country side and plenty of space. the other stupid thing is, at the Trim turn off the old N3 near Pace, Dunboyne, they never left a tunnel or bridge with the new junction for the railway.

I think the Government at the time just talked ****e about opening this railway again. lets hope im wrong, but I cant see the current bunch of **** doing anything practical about it even if the country had the money.

the railways are under used in terms of their potential.

newmug

robclay26 wrote: »

look at what they built!
they built M3 parkway, with a massive carpark. They thought this would be a cheap fix to providing navan commuters a rail link. Sure if you drive to M3, ye might as well continue on into the city the rest of the way. Load of ballocks!
Navan would work well, even in this recession, at least it will be built and operating for when things pick up sometime in the future.
I agree, that the Connolly area is congested with trains and a link/connector is required, but would a solution of opening the boradstone section work? its not that far 1km as the crow flys from The top of O'Connell st or just run them direct into Docklands like what currently happens?

I think one really crazy thing about the Navan line is that when they built the motor way the never planned for the railway to come back. near navan, the link road from the M3 into the town cuts down deep into the hill where the rail used to go, and they left no proper land for a bridge. the M3 cuts the old line east of navan, but this is in the country side and plenty of space. the other stupid thing is, at the Trim turn off the old N3 near Pace, Dunboyne, they never left a tunnel or bridge with the new junction for the railway.

I think the Government at the time just talked ****e about opening this railway again. lets hope im wrong, but I cant see the current bunch of **** doing anything practical about it even if the country had the money.

the railways are under used in terms of their potential.

When Noel Dempsey (a Meathman who should be all in favour of passenger rail coming to Navan) was the minister for transport, he went out of his way to kill off the Navan railway project, and ensure the M3 was built instead. <snip libellous content>

dowlingm

Navan Parkway should be able to fill 8 car 29000s direct to "An Lar" but instead is being shuttle-ised. But you see to do that, all BE traffic in the area would have to be forced to route via Pace and offer one-ticket fares to downtown. That is, after all, how GO Transit works here in Toronto, with coaches helping to fill trains the equivalent of about 16-20 29000 carriages (10/12 bilevels). On the GO system, trains run in the peak direction (with some parallel buses to pull in from catchments where the rail doesn't run through which then meet up with the train again down the line) and buses run counterpeak.

teol

dowlingm wrote: »

Navan Parkway should be able to fill 8 car 29000s direct to "An Lar" but instead is being shuttle-ised. But you see to do that, all BE traffic in the area would have to be forced to route via Pace and offer one-ticket fares to downtown. That is, after all, how GO Transit works here in Toronto, with coaches helping to fill trains the equivalent of about 16-20 29000 carriages (10/12 bilevels). On the GO system, trains run in the peak direction (with some parallel buses to pull in from catchments where the rail doesn't run through which then meet up with the train again down the line) and buses run counterpeak.

Why would a commuter leave their seat on a bus just to gamble on whether they have to stand on the train. When the Navan Road at Cabra gets a proper QBC, journey times will improve for the bus.

CIE

teol wrote: »

Why would a commuter leave their seat on a bus just to gamble on whether they have to stand on the train. When the Navan Road at Cabra gets a proper QBC, journey times will improve for the bus

And where is there enough room to build a "proper QBC" on the Navan Road through Cabra to Ashtown? A number of buildings will have to be knocked down and a number of front yards paved over. I'd sure like to see them try to widen the Old Cabra Road and Prussia Street to accommodate the extended "proper QBC" that will be necessary to reach the quays without a break in the QBC that would force the 39/A/B/X and 70 to run mixed in with the heavy traffic through Stoneybatter et cetera.

Anyone recall how old the QBC project is? Started in 1991. Two decades, 125 miles of bus lanes (road traffic lanes, on-street parking and hard shoulders ended up sacrificed for all those) and the buses' average speed is still slower than in the 1970s and 1980s. How much was spent on it...? (I can't seem to find a round figure.)

teol

CIE wrote: »

And where is there enough room to build a "proper QBC" on the Navan Road through Cabra to Ashtown? A number of buildings will have to be knocked down and a number of front yards paved over. I'd sure like to see them try to widen the Old Cabra Road and Prussia Street to accommodate the extended "proper QBC" that will be necessary to reach the quays without a break in the QBC that would force the 39/A/B/X and 70 to run mixed in with the heavy traffic through Stoneybatter et cetera.

There is plans for one from Ashtown to the McDonalds on the Navan Road.
http://www.dublincity.ie/ROADSANDTRAFFIC/QBNPROJECTOFFICE/Pages/PublicConsultation.aspx

The old Navan Road is a problem. A QBC can be easily routed through the Grangegorman site and therefore miss Stonybatter and Manor Street.

dowlingm

teol wrote: »

Why would a commuter leave their seat on a bus just to gamble on whether they have to stand on the train.

Since the commuter would be boarding at the terminus the chances are good of a seat but also as I noted if the demand is there you increase frequency and/or train length. On the Barrie line on the map above they are adding a fifth 10-car rotation now and a sixth next year I think - platform lengths limit matters in greater Dublin but at least the track is doubled. Instead for the sake of "competition" we have BE and IE eating each others lunch and huge sums spent laying double track going to waste by shuttle-isation.

foggy_lad

dowlingm wrote: »

Since the commuter would be boarding at the terminus the chances are good of a seat but also as I noted if the demand is there you increase frequency and/or train length. On the Barrie line on the map above they are adding a fifth 10-car rotation now and a sixth next year I think - platform lengths limit matters in greater Dublin but at least the track is doubled. Instead for the sake of "competition" we have BE and IE eating each others lunch and huge sums spent laying double track going to waste by shuttle-isation.

The difference is that the busses go to the city centre and where people want to go, the trains only go to Connolly or Docklands and this is too far for most people working around the south city centre/St Stephens green area who expect to be left a lot closer to work for the increased cost of the train! Consider also the increased times caused by entering and exiting train stations in Dublin compared to stepping off a bus around the corner or a few streets away from your job.

dowlingm

True enough foggy_lad but the reality is that DASH2 is crawling along and if capacity was to go up someone had to be going into Docklands. Now that it is nearer completion they've "dealt with" the problem by forcing a transfer at Clonsilla which isn't the answer either.