.177 air rifle

shottie007

hi everyone was hoping for some advice,
my 17year old son is looking to get a .22 rifle, which i'm not too happy with given the safety required and knowing how young lads like to mess. long and the short of it i told him he could get an air rifle and if there were no problems he could get a .22 in a few months.
i have no experience with rifles of any kind and was wondering if somebody here could provide some advice
he will mainly be using it for targets/crows/rats ect so what is the effective range to humanly kill those animals?
and what is the required backdrop for it?

thanks in advance

kildare.17hmr

same saftey requirements for an air rifle as a .22, you must have a safe bolted to a solid wall. Id say get him into a club to learn rifle saftey and then let him get the 22, it will take a while to come through and in this time he can still go to the club and learn about shooting in a safe environment and should be fine when the licence comes through!

pugw

+1 on the above. I know from a frient that some air rifles are as expensive as a proper rifle and they are a pain in d a*s to sell on again afterwards! Go for a .22 although you could maybe make him wait till he's 18 might be easier for the license too as i know some supers dont like giving licenses for rifles to young people

shottie007

well i was thinking that an air gun would be a good place to start then he could get the rifle at a later date. that and the wife is very anti fire arms and this seems to be a happy middle ground.
thinking about it most of his shooting will be at close distances around building/outhouses or crows on wires ect
i saw a .177 brake barrel for sale here for €150 with a scope and think that's alright, so what's the furtherest distance you could kill a crow/magpie at?

Sparks

Not to urinate on the parade, but if you're not happy with him shooting a .22lr, I don't think you should be happy about letting him shoot a .177 hunting air rifle - at close range, accidents with either are potentially very serious. Maybe it might be better to sign him up to the local target shooting club for a few months first instead, and let the club show him how to shoot safely?

rabbit assassin

I would say let him get a .22 rimfire instead of an air rifle , as someone said before they are just as expensive , and speaking from experience I can tell you they are dying out and are very difficult to sell on as a second hand gun. Also, I had one of my air rifles ( a Weihrauch hw90) not a cheap gun let me say , it sometimes used to go off by itself because the claw that holds the piston back slipped and released.. obviously not the case with every air rifle but I can safely say that Ill never buy another air rifle. Just because its "only an air rifle" people seem to think that its not as dangerous as a rifle powered by propellant powder (rimfire or centrefire) Maybe the right thing to do would be to let him get a .22 and know how serious of a firearm it is , that the bullet has the capability of continuing through the countryside long after it has been fired. I know of more people messing with an air rifle than a .22 rimfire because they think "ah its only an air rifle" ... its not called a rifle for no reason...

clivej

shottie007 wrote: »

well i was thinking that an air gun would be a good place to start then he could get the rifle at a later date. that and the wife is very anti fire arms and this seems to be a happy middle ground.
thinking about it most of his shooting will be at close distances around building/outhouses or crows on wires ect
i saw a .177 brake barrel for sale here for €150 with a scope and think that's alright, so what's the furtherest distance you could kill a crow/magpie at?

One thing you can't do is shoot a 22lr into the sky as the bullet will travel for over a mile and still inflict harm should it hit someone/anything. You must always make sure that the round will hit either the ground or a rise so it can't travel on.
A 22lr round will go though 2" of timber so shooting around buildings and outhouses must be done with skill and care.

Go for the airgun. He can still hunt say rabbits and squirrels in the woods at the 40y max. range of an airgun. Did plenty of it with a cheap brake barrel spring air-rifle when I was a young lad, a 22 BSA metor it was.

extremetaz

clivej wrote: »

One thing you can't do is shoot a 22lr into the sky as the bullet will travel for over a mile and still inflict harm should it hit someone/anything. You must always make sure that the round will hit either the ground or a rise so it can't travel on.

A 22lr round will go though 2" of timber so shooting around buildings and outhouses must be done with skill and care.

Go for the airgun. He can still hunt say rabbits and squirrels in the woods at the 40y max. range of an airgun. Did plenty of it with a cheap brake barrel spring air-rifle when I was a young lad, a 22 BSA metor it was.

I've seen videos of fella's shooting birds in trees and on lines in this manner with air rifles and that exact sentiment always hits me too.

NEVER fire a rifle of any description into anything but an appropriate backstop!!

The air rifle is less of an issue in this regard but the process is habit forming and should always be done.

As for the air rifle being safer than the rimfire - on account of your exact impression of air rifles, the opposite is probably true.

I'd mirror the lads sentiments - get him into a rifle club and let him learn to shoot there before buying anything, might be no harm for you to do a bit yourself as well so that you can appreciate what you're dealing with a bit better.

Regarding the .22 vs air issue, I'd still advocate air as a good place to start. They're no cheaper to buy but they're quieter, cheaper to run, and in most cases have less recoil to deal with.

kildare.17hmr

I reckon your best bet is to get him into the local range and get him shooting there first, that way he will learn proper gun handling and saftey and be able to use their guns. or you could always tell him to join the RDF and he will be thought there for free!

sfakiaman

I'd agree with CliveJ on this, a .22 air rifle is the thing for shooting around outbuildings, sheds etc and will make clean kills on crows at 40 yds. A .22lr would be too powerful for a novice to use in those conditions and the temptation to take an unsafe shot could be too great. From your sig you use a shotgun so you should be able to teach the lad safe gun handling. Like Clive I had a BSA Meteor as a teenager and fired at least 200 rounds a week through it, I'd have one today if it wasn't for the €80 licence fee as it would let me safely take shots that I wouldn't deam of with my .22lr.

clivej

The problem I see with "Getting the Lad" to a club is first the cost €500 plus for the first years total fees and whose rifle will he be using at "The Club"???
So answer me this all you whom said get him to join a club "how did you start out shooting" I'd bet it wasn't at a club. More like many others here, buy the gun, shoot the gun and learn as you go along. Not the best answer but its what many a 'Lad' has done, including cliveJ.

kildare.17hmr

FCA like i mentioned is free and will teach safty and handling, not all clubs are 500 euro ether, harbour house in kildare is 300 and you may even be able to work out a payment plan with the lads out there. I used to mess around with air rifles too when i was younger tho

Sparks

Thing is clive, the OP's said he wouldn't give the lad a .22lr for fear of mischief. Well, a gun's a gun - if you wouldn't give him a .22lr, why would you give him a 12-ft.lb. hunting airgun?

And maybe the older generation ( :pac: ) learnt in a rough-and-ready way, but that doesn't mean you have to if there's a club to hand. And "do that again and you're gone" has more impact on a teenager when coming from a stranger than from daddy - as both the college clubs could tell you

Besides, not all clubs are €500+ for the first year. shottie007, where are you in the country?

Sparks

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

FCA like i mentioned is free

Well, no, not really. (a) It's the RDF - they don't like being called the sandbags Free Clothing Association FCA anymore; and (b) you are signing up to a military unit. You're paying with time, rather than money, but regardless, it's still not free...

clivej

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is clive, the OP's said he wouldn't give the lad a .22lr for fear of mischief. Well, a gun's a gun - if you wouldn't give him a .22lr, why would you give him a 12-ft.lb. hunting airgun?

And maybe the older generation ( :pac: ) learnt in a rough-and-ready way, but that doesn't mean you have to if there's a club to hand. And "do that again and you're gone" has more impact on a teenager when coming from a stranger than from daddy - as both the college clubs could tell you

Besides, not all clubs are €500+ for the first year. shottie007, where are you in the country?

I didn't say to get a 22lr, my thought was the air gun. All in all he can't do the damage with the air gun as a 22lr, but he can get into as much trouble with one.
I was forgetting that rifle ranges cost a lot to join up in the first year but a local gun club will be a lot cheaper and provide the land to shoot on as well at the same time

And the question as to whose rifle "The young Lad" will be using to learn with was not answered

kildare.17hmr

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

I reckon your best bet is to get him into the local range and get him shooting there first, that way he will learn proper gun handling and saftey and be able to use their guns. or you could always tell him to join the RDF and he will be thought there for free!

Sparks wrote: »

Well, no, not really. (a) It's the RDF - they don't like being called the sandbags Free Clothing Association FCA anymore; and (b) you are signing up to a military unit. You're paying with time, rather than money, but regardless, it's still not free...

It was called the FCA when i joined and was the RDF when i left. When i said fca i was answering clives question. its time well spent and a very enjoyable hobbie that i enjoyed giving up my time for so i would consider that free

Sparks

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

a very enjoyable hobbie

I think that that description is a big part of the reason why they don't like being called the FCA anymore...

kildare.17hmr

Sparks wrote: »

I think that that description is a big part of the reason why they don't like being called the FCA anymore...

What is it your tryin to say because im just not getting it?? Anyone involved will tell you the same, they do it because its fun

sfakiaman

Sparks wrote: »

Thing is clive, the OP's said he wouldn't give the lad a .22lr for fear of mischief. Well, a gun's a gun - if you wouldn't give him a .22lr, why would you give him a 12-ft.lb. hunting airgun?

And maybe the older generation ( :pac: ) learnt in a rough-and-ready way, but that doesn't mean you have to if there's a club to hand. And "do that again and you're gone" has more impact on a teenager when coming from a stranger than from daddy - as both the college clubs could tell you

12 ft.lb air rifle compared to a .22 lr. with Remington Yellow Jackets at 165 ft. lbs, even the Eley Olympic rapid fire .22 short is 36 ft. lbs. I know which I would give a beginner for shooting vermin round the barn.

As for the "older generation" learning in a "rough and ready way", I'll have you know you young whipper snapper that I was taught by an ex sergeant of the Scots Guards who was also a long standing member of the Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs (now the NSRA).

Sparks

I'm trying to gently hint that joining a military unit ('cos like it or not, sandbag jokes or not, that's what it is these days) to get "free" training in firearms is not a good choice. It'd be like joining the navy to get to see a beach.

Besides which, I'm not convinced that the firearms training in the RDF is better than the training you'd get at a good club. Certainly we've seen it be fairly spotty in the college clubs when RDF members come in. Many are perfectly find - but there's always a few who frankly, worry the bejaysus out of whomever is on RO duty that night. The training just isn't aimed at civilian use of firearms (and really, it shouldn't be - they're not civilians).

Sparks

sfakiaman wrote: »

12 ft.lb air rifle compared to a .22 lr. with Remington Yellow Jackets at 165 ft. lbs, even the Eley Olympic rapid fire .22 short is 36 ft. lbs. I know which I would give a beginner for shooting vermin round the barn.

Yes, but I know which one I wouldn't like to see someone have an accident with (ie. either of them), and the OP was specific in saying that he didn't feel he could give his son a .22lr.

Look lads, here's the thing - either you think he doesn't know his son, or you don't care, but you're recommending to him that he give this kid a gun and none of you know why he doesn't think that the kid should have a .22lr.

As for the "older generation" learning in a "rough and ready way", I'll have you know you young whipper snapper that I was taught by an ex sergeant of the Scots Guards who was also a long standing member of the Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs (now the NSRA).

See, now I feel better. That's the first time I've been called young this year

bunny shooter

RDF firearms training is as good or bad as the quality of the instruction recieved in my experience

RDF NCO's who ain't got a clue are getting more plentiful unfortunately :rolleyes:

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

RDF NCO's who ain't got a clue are getting more frequent unfortunately :rolleyes:

And therein lies the problem. It's not like RDF NCO's get listed anywhere for firearms cluefullness...

...well, not anywhere that we can find easily, at any rate.

kildare.17hmr

well from my experience id completly disagree, safty was no 1 always, we spent countless hours handling, stripping and doing theory before we ever fired a shot, i saw a lad get fcuked out of it for messing one day when cleaning a rifle. Plenty of people join just to fire a gun, some stay some dont. anyway this is another thread altogether so ill leave it at that

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. It's not like RDF NCO's get listed anywhere for firearms cluefullness...

...well, not anywhere that we can find easily, at any rate.

Same as everything else there are good ones and there are bad ones