Appropriate behaviour

LegacyUser

I'd just like some opinion on this particular problem.

My wife and I have a 3 year old daughter. She has an older step brother of 23 whom my wife had from a previous relationship. Nothing unusual so far. However, her step brothers behaviour around her has me a little worried. He is very clingy with her and has an attachment that I thinks goes beyond "brotherly love". While he doesn't live with us, he babysits on a few occasions and Ive noticed some odd things on our return. Our daughter would be running around without any bottoms on (something we never entertain and she never shows interest in anyway) or they'd be up in her room under a duvet. He constantly showers her with gifts. Of course it may all be harmless. Tonight he arrived in the door, while I was bathing our daughter and came straight up the stairs to see her in the bath. Then I took her out and while drying her on a bed, he barged in again and lifted her up. She was still naked. Ive noticed this a lot with him.

He has a recent history of mental illness, never had a girl/boyfriend and is a loner. Am I overreacting or should I keep a discrete eye on him?

MagicMarker

I'd definitely keep an eye on him. It could be nothing, but you don't take liberties when it comes to something like this.

What kind of mental illness are we talking about? Should he really be left to take care of a 3 year old on his own? Even I wouldn't like to be left alone with a 3 year old, but then again I have zero experience with kids!

amdublin

I'd keep a serious eye on this.

tenchi-fan

First, I assume you mean HALF-brother, rather than step-brother?

How would you rate this guy's intelligence and social skills? Would you use any of the following terms to describe him: "quiet", "a loner", "a bit strange", "has few friends", "finds it hard to relate to people", "shows no interest in women" or "has a low IQ".. just some things to think about. Oh, and the mental illness.. care to expand?

If he's not a blood relative there is no way in hell he should be playing with her when she's naked and I certainly wouldn't trust him to babysit. If he is her half-brother, well still, be careful.

LegacyUser

Your not overreacting op,the mention of showering gifts,under duvet,urge to see naked doesn't seem normal in my view,it could be harmless fun in the guys mind with his mental issues but i would speak to wife about this if was you.

seenitall

tenchi-fan wrote: »

If he's not a blood relative there is no way in hell he should be playing with her when she's naked and I certainly wouldn't trust him to babysit. If he is her half-brother, well still, be careful.

Eh? Are you seriously saying that this guy's behaviour is to be judged as inappropriate or not according to the amount of shared DNA? Ever heard of incest?

OP, talking as a mother here, the whole of your post rings alarm bells to me, and there is no way I would have a person with mental health problems (however slight) baby-sit my daughter or even play with her unsupervised, be they a relative or not. No way. But the whole nudity thing would well and truly creep me out before we even get to any mental health issues!

I appreciate this person is your step-son, but I would feel strongly that it is much, much better to err on the side of caution here and restrict access. The situation sounds too weird and inappropriate to be good for your daughter.

Remember this: IF your daughter is being interfered with in any way, both she and (through her) you, may end up suffering the consequences for the rest of your lives, while the creep will be just fine.

I think you have reason enough to be concerned and I would put my foot down and put an end to any unsupervised access. It's a no-brainer, and I would fight anyone by any means necessary to ensure my daughter's well-being and safety, be they my enemy, my friend, my sister, my brother, my mother, my husband - anyone.

OP, "a discreet eye" doesn't even begin to cover this, in my honest opinion, but make of it what you will.

(sorry about the emotional post, OP, but I do feel that a child's well-being could well be at stake here, and I have a daughter not dissimilar in age, so it's easy to identify with you on that...)

Best wishes. I hope for the very best for your daughter.

tenchi-fan

seenitall wrote: »

Eh? Are you seriously saying that this guy's behaviour is to be judged as inappropriate or not according to the amount of shared DNA? Ever heard of incest?

I simply meant it would be more normal for a blood relative to help out at bath time than someone who is not related. You should also remember that guy probably saw his sister naked many times since she was born and still sees the child as a baby.

However, all sorts of psychology comes into it. My neighbour was having a dinner party and (for attention) her 3-year old daughter uncharacteristically got out of bed, stripped naked and walked into the living room in front of all the guests.. as a joke. Freud says infants aged between 0 and 3 play all sorts of games and push boundaries with family members, only to grow out of the phase and become innocent children again until they hit puberty. Which is why, the child walking around naked when her parents just arrived home - although damning for the poor bastard who was babysitting - really isn't that out of the ordinary.

Plus you need to remember that the op is now living with another male adult and competing with the affections of said adult's mother. Did you notice how he referred to the guy as his daughter's STEP-brother when the correct term is HALF-brother?

Op, be wary. But be careful about making accusations. The naivety implied in your opening post was more than a bit disingenuous.

seenitall

tenchi-fan wrote: »

You should also remember that guy probably saw his sister naked many times since she was born and still sees the child as a baby.

so what? He could see her as a baby and still be inappropriate or worse when alone with her; I'm not an expert on sexually deviant behaviour and its various motivations and inacarnations, but tbh you don't sound like one either, so rather than theorising about why the guy shouldn't have reason for inappropriateness with the child, we should concentrate on his behaviour, which to me still seems really dodgy and well worth of a parent's concern.

As for children pushing boundaries etc, I can tell you my daughter was never encouraged to take off her bottoms particularly a propos of nothing, and she never even thought to do it of her own initiative; so the fact that her parents don't usually encourage this little girl to take her bottoms off, and she doesn't do it of her own initiative while they are around, and yet they find her without her underwear on when the guy is baby-sitting, well, that tells me all I need to know, tbh. This sounds to have happened on more than one occasion, too. Dodgy as hell and not worth the risk of the baby-sitting.

The competing for affection thing between the OP and his step-son - er, I don't see it at all. Do you know how many people mix up the terms "half" and "step" all the time? Many do.

Aside from which, I don't care if the step-son is either devil incarnate or the best thing since sliced bread in OP's eyes, the indications in the post are, aside from reading to me like a normal but concerned parent's words, that something untoward could be going on, I would strongly advise the OP not to risk it any further.

Oh, and "poor bastard", my foot. Poor little girl, more like.

Also, and perhaps most importantly, the guy has had a recent mental illness! No accusations needed at all. Just do the best you can do by your child by not putting her in way of potential risk.

Conas

This topic is disgusting and how it's aloud to be posted on a public forum is behond me. Use common sense and get that man as far away from your daughter as you can, if he refuses have him reported. It's very simple!!!

Console

A tactful situation.
I can only speak for myself what I would do in this situation.

• I would have a chat with your wife. Mentioning how he shouldnt be allowing the kids to run around naked. I would be totally subtle with this and gauge her reaction. If she voiced concerns too. Then I would be open with my concerns.
• But, always a possibilty since he is a relation she doesnt see anything wrong with it (aka, harmless) But due to the severity of this situation you need proof. This is not like alot of things in life where if you are wrong, you're wrong and who cares. This is serious. Accusations of this nature can be extremly damaging. Even when wrong. Not to mention too the sh*t it may cause if wrong. So you need proof. You are dealing with a relation and not a stranger to the family.
• If in an event she doesnt share your concerns, as extreme as it may be, I would be thinking hidden camera. I know... it seems excessive. But due to the situation it can call for it. You have to be right or wrong. No in between. If you do decide to go down this road know that "spy cameras" tend to have a bit of a scam going. Often you are asked to spend hundreds of euros. Not the case take a look here and then an example in action here ... that equipment only costs 10-20 euro and you can see the quality. I'm sure with a bit of an google search you can find an item that suits your needs.

cafecolour

This is a difficult situation. What sort of mental illness does he have? Is he a bit 'simple'?

It doesn't seem like your step-son has made any attempt to 'hide' these things from you, meaning, essentially, he's not doing anything that HE thinks is inappropriate.

If he's mental ill though, he might have a hard time judging such boundaries.

Miss Fluff

His behaviour is totally and utterly inappropriate. Aside from every other alarm bell evident in your post, picking up and hugging a 3-year old girl while she is naked and out of the bath is simply not on.

I do think it's a sad world that we live in where affection towards children could all too easily be misconstrued BUT I certainly don't think his behaviour thusfar is healthy.

No more babysitting, regardless of how much you need a babysitter and absolutely no unsupervised visits. You're also going to have to discuss this with your wife because she's going to carry on as normal unless you discuss this with her.

You don't have to accuse him of anything but you do have a little three year old (defenceless) tot to protect so you must do everything within your power to do so.

neuro-praxis

Alarm bells are ringing for me too, but we must remember that it is quite possible that he has done nothing wrong and that you might be causing massive hurt by making accusations.

Therefore I would suspend any time alone he is having with her from now on. If he asks why you aren't asking him to babysit, say money is tight and you aren't going out. Have a long, calm talk with your wife and the two of you should find a professional who deals with the area of abuse and abusers and speak to them for their advice. Never mention this person's name in any of this at this stage.

Then make your own decisions as to what should happen.

The safety of your little girl is your top priority, but this lad may simply lack good sense and it is nothing more than that. It is up to you to take whatever measures necessary to ensure that she is safe. Perhaps having a professionally guided conversation with her too might be a good idea.

Good luck.

Well his behaviour is inappropriate in your eyes.

So even if nothing sinister is going on, the inappropriate behaviour in itself is worth talking to your wife about. So there's no need to broach the subject of "what if" with your wife right now. Just approach her with "what is" happening.

As he is her son, she could react EXTREMELY badly to the what if scenario. If you can get her on side with how you've actually seen him act, do. If you can't get her to come round to the idea he's being inappropriate, then you have to broach the subject of worse possibilities. With your little girl involved, she can't blame you for having your guard up. If she does, maybe ask her to humour you and let you put a camera up the next time he babysits. This is one of those scenarios when it's not worth ignoring just to keep the peace.

I assume that when you get home after he has babysat, you ask her if she had a good time etc., how does she react?

Leitrim lass

Your gut feeling is telling you something here. It may be of way off track but you can't afford to ignore it if you even have the smallest incling that it might be true.
Waiting to catch him in the act or monitoring him is still giving him the chance to act 'inappropriate' if he wants.
Your wife will probably not want to entertain the thought for a second seeing as he is her son and I'd imagine she would be protective of him if there is a history of mental illness.
Do NOT let him baby sit or be alone with your daughter if you have your doubts about him.
I know it's a delicate situation as it might be all harmless, but you cannot keep your concerns to yourself on this.
Tell your wife your not comfortable with your daughter running around naked in front of a 23 year old regardless if he is her half brother or not, especially when she doesn't do it normally.
Is there somebody in a professional capacity you could seek advice from confidentially without it erupting into something ugly and public. Somebody who has experience with this sort of thing?

MUSEIST

Yes its inapropriate behaviour but the fact that he is not hiding it from you suggests that he is just naive and genuinely does not realise its inapropriate. You of course should be carefull and bring it up with your wife just to be sure and also limit the amount of time they spend together and babysitting is a no no.


On a side note I am deeply disturbed that some responses to this thread seem to indicate that the fact that he has a history of mental illness is somehow significant. Being mentally ill does not automatically mean child fiddler nor does it mean any predisposition to such behavior over any other member of society.

amdublin

Would you perhaps discuss your worries with your GP?

LegacyUser

Thanks everyone. To respond as best as possible to the points and questions raised.

1. Yes he is her half brother. Apologies for mixing up the terms.
2. His mental illness is depression and he is on medication for it. He has signed himself into hospital on two occasions claiming suicidal thoughts. (He has never attempted it.)
3. He would be described as a loner and odd with very poor social skills
4. I have considered a hidden camera.
5. He doesn't live with us so there is no competing for attention.

Despite all this I would never had thought what Im thinking until I noticed this behaviour. I have spoken to my wife about my concerns and she has agreed that his behaviour is inappropriate and has told him to stop. We have also decided to employ a female friend that our daughter knows well, for babysitting. It has been perhaps the hardest conversation Ive ever had to have with her. It could all be naivety on his part, but as a Dad, I know I owe it to my daughter to be as vigilant as possible even if its upsetting to my wife.

amdublin

Damnedifyoudo wrote: »

Despite all this I would never had thought what Im thinking until I noticed this behaviour. I have spoken to my wife about my concerns and she has agreed that his behaviour is inappropriate and has told him to stop. We have also decided to employ a female friend that our daughter knows well, for babysitting. It has been perhaps the hardest conversation Ive ever had to have with her. It could all be naivety on his part, but as a Dad, I know I owe it to my daughter to be as vigilant as possible even if its upsetting to my wife.

Sounds like you and you wife have this in hand.

Best of luck.

seenitall

MUSEIST wrote: »

On a side note I am deeply disturbed that some responses to this thread seem to indicate that the fact that he has a history of mental illness is somehow significant. Being mentally ill does not automatically mean child fiddler nor does it mean any predisposition to such behavior over any other member of society.

Well, I'm sorry if you are deeply disturbed, Museist, but it will be a cool and balmy day in hell before I would let someone with a history of mental illness babysit my child. No matter the nature of mental issues, the potential for irrational thinking is there and it is greater than with an average person. Children are just too precious to be put at risk like that.

Being mentally ill does NOT automatically mean "child-fiddler" or automatic anything else, for that matter, but given the other indications in the opening post, it just, in this case, contributes to building a very disturbing picture... so you are not the only one who's deeply disturbed, I guess!

OP, well done! I feel positively relieved that you have taken steps regarding the situation. All the best.

MUSEIST

seenitall wrote: »

Well, I'm sorry if you are deeply disturbed, Museist, but it will be a cool and balmy day in hell before I would let someone with a history of mental illness babysit my child.

Being mentally ill does NOT automatically mean "child-fiddler" or automatic anything else, for that matter, but given the other indications in the opening post, it just, in this case, contributes to building a very disturbing picture... so you are not the only one who's deeply disturbed, I guess!

OP, well done! I feel positively relieved that you have taken steps regarding the situation. All the best.

The op should be concerned about this individual imo. I am simply saying that the fact that he has a mental illness is irrelevant and if you think it is relevant then you are are perpetuating the unfortunate and ill concieved stereotypes about mental illness that exist in society.
Whether or not someone is mentally ill does not predispose them to any behaviour which may endanger an infant. This individual may well be dangerous but its not because they have a mental illness and it disturbs me that the op felt the need to mention that the person in question suffers from depression as if to create a picture, i.e a mentally ill person who is therefore someone to be watched and kept away from children.

seenitall

I was editing my post in order to futher explain why I think it is indeed highly relevant if someone in sole care of a child has a history of mental issues, while you were posting yours.

I don't believe I am perpetuating any stereotypes, but I tell you now, even if I were, I'd rather have myself to blame for perpetuating stereotypes than for letting my child come to harm because I let someone with potentially shaky grasp on reality have sole care of her.

"Whether or not someone is mentally ill does not predispose them to any behaviour which may endanger an infant." - As I already explained, I don't think this is necessarily true - it may or may not be true, depending on the individual and their problems. Where my child is concerned, I will always err on the side of caution.

sambuka41

seenitall wrote: »

Well, I'm sorry if you are deeply disturbed, Museist, but it will be a cool and balmy day in hell before I would let someone with a history of mental illness babysit my child.

I sincerely hope you are never unfortunate enough to experience a mental health issue yourself. There is a vast difference between different mental health problems, its one thing saying that you dont want your kids minded by someone who is psychotic at the moment to someone who has suffered depression. A lot of women suffer with post natal, should they not look after their kids either?????

As for the OP you are right to air on the side of caution, there does sound like something is not right here. Fair play to you having the chat with your wife, that must have been very difficult for both of you. It may well be innocent, spoiling his little sister but if your gut says somethings not right, its probably right to pay attention to it.

seenitall

sambuka41 wrote: »

I sincerely hope you are never unfortunate enough to experience a mental health issue yourself. There is a vast difference between different mental health problems, its one thing saying that you dont want your kids minded by someone who is psychotic at the moment to someone who has suffered depression. A lot of women suffer with post natal, should they not look after their kids either?????

Ehhh... this made me smile. Of course you have no way of knowing this, but it is precisely because I do have some experience with mental health issues in general, and the clinically depressed people in particular, that I hold the views I do.

It is a well-known fact that some PND mothers do have thoughts of harming their child; so it is a pretty unfortunate example for you to use to illustrate your point.

sambuka41

seenitall wrote: »

Ehhh... this made me smile. Of course you have no way of knowing this, but it is precisely because I do have some experience with mental health issues in general, and the clinically depressed people in particular, that I hold the views I do.

Then it seems unfortunate to me that you would not have more of a holistic approach, and be more understanding of what is going on for them. The OP has not stated that the person is experiencing a depressive episode, it would be a bit unfair to ask him to babysit if he was. But that he has experienced this in the past. And like Museit says I dont feel its automatically applicable to the current situation.

sambuka41

seenitall wrote: »

It is a well-known fact that some PND mothers do have thoughts of harming their child; so it is a pretty unfortunate example for you to use to illustrate your point.

Some not all, and I believe that risk assessments should be individually based. So I would not say that every woman experiencing post natal cant look after their child. Same for any mental health issue.

seenitall

Holistic approach and more understanding are all very well, but I'm afraid all that just doesn't quite cut it for me where the well-being of my child is concerned. Whether automatically applicable or not, the potential for "application" is there moreso than with a person with no mental illness background.

I'm actually sorry to disappoint people on here with my views, as I do see where you're coming from too - feel free to think of me as a paranoid and over-protective parent if you wish!

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

Holistic approach and more understanding are all very well, but I'm afraid all that just doesn't quite cut it for me where the well-being of my child is concerned. Whether automatically applicable or not, the potential for "application" is there moreso than with a person with no mental illness background.

I'm actually sorry to disappoint people on here with my views, as I do see where you're coming from too - feel free to think of me as a paranoid and over-protective parent if you wish!

As someone who has had clinical depression, I actually totally get you.

I'm completely stable now, and in fact I would say that I'm more rational and in tune with my behaviour than a normal person would be. I've spent so long working to become emotionally and (possibly more importantly) behaviourally healthier, that I'm probably more capable of not letting moods or the kind of day I'm having affect how I would care for a child under my care. I've minded babies and kids in the past, and I've always been told I'm really good with them. I'm generally a very responsible, reliable person.

If I was going to mind a child, I wouldn't feel it necessary to mention my mental health history, but if someone asked, I would tell them, and I'd tell them the above, and I'd tell them this too:
"However, as a parent I completely understand if this is an issue for you, and I wouldn't hold it against you if you choose not to hire me for this reason. You're totally entitled to hold your own concerns, and I understand that as a parent you can't have any doubts about the person caring for your child."