Is it becoming obvious to anyone else that we mixed up our wolves and our sheep?

hatrickpatrick

http://www.independent.ie/business/european/imfs-chopra-says-europe-must-do-more-for-ireland-2653678.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0521/1224297465783.html

So when we first heard that the IMF and the EU were in town, everyone was relieved and eager to point out that the EU would be involved and it wasn't the IMF alone. The IMF were widely bandied around as the ultimate boogeymen, Chopra was nicknamed "Mr chopper" by many, and examples of the IMF "destroying" other bailed out countries were rife. Our government apparently took the same line, eagerly trying to make the EU as involved as possible and distance the IMF.

Does it appear to anyone else that we hideously misjudged the situation? It's looking more and more to me that the IMF are actually the ones who have a bit of sense and want to help economies recover, whilst the EU are tinged with bitterness and attempts to 'punish' eachother. The IMF have now attacked Europe for making bailout terms and austerity too harsh, and warned that this policy will lead to disaster if it continues.

I've even heard it said that the IMF were "disgusted" with how our government grovelled to and sided with the EU again and again during negotiations. I forget where I read this, it was in either the Irish Times or the Independent. They couldn't understand why our government was effectively choosing the far worse of two necessary evils.

So my question to all of ye is, were we unfair in regarding the IMF as the main bad guys? Was it unreasonable and foolish of us to fear the IMF more than our alleged "partners" in Europe?

The IMF, for example, have said they may soon cut our interest rate. The EU will not do so unless we give up our competitiveness in return.

Were we too hard on the IMF and too warm towards Europe? Did we mix up which was the sheep and which was the wolf?

tenchi-fan

Ireland took handout after handout from Europe over the years.

We allowed our economy to overheat despite knowing that we had no control over our monetary policy.

We has a basket of tricks.. like our corporation tax rate to grow out of recessions, like bringing in foreign workers to cool down the labour market, then of course the intertwined NAMA and bank guarantees, and now even more underhandedness in the form of pension fund levies and who knows where it will end.

And now we've thrown everything at it and we're left bowing and scraping to the Germans and French. It was fewer than 70 years ago that Adolph Hitler ruled Germany. Do you really think they changed that much?

We didn't value our freedom. We might as well have taken out a big loan using our natural gas fields, peat bogs and the deeds of every homeowner in Ireland as collateral, flew to vegas and put it all on black in the hopes of prosperity and to fund our greed. Guess what? We lost.

tenchi-fan

As for the IMF.. it's a case of good cop, bad cop.

We get complimented for being on track one minute and an interest rate cut is held under our noses, the next the topic of corporate tax rates comes up.

Neither the EU, world bank, IMF, G20, Nato, the Eurovision Song Contest or any other international grouping care about Ireland. And let's face it, we're getting our comeuppance.

sollar

I don't think this Christine Lagarde will be much of a friend to us either if she takes over from DSK.

hatrickpatrick

tenchi-fan wrote: »

As for the IMF.. it's a case of good cop, bad cop.

We get complimented for being on track one minute and an interest rate cut is held under our noses, the next the topic of corporate tax rates comes up.

No, that's the EU you're talking about. The IMF haven't asked us to change our corporate tax at all, and indeed have opposed such a move.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

No, that's the EU you're talking about. The IMF haven't asked us to change our corporate tax at all, and indeed have opposed such a move.

And in turn, no, that's France you're talking about. This isn't as simple as EU vs IMF - this is a rather more complex situation in which the ECB and the Finance Ministers of the Member States are at odds over burden-sharing with the bondholders, different Member States either support or oppose a reduction for the Irish interest rates, Germany supports burden-sharing but only in a properly negotiated setting and in exchange for tighter agreements on deficit spending, the US opposes burden-sharing, France have availed of our difficulties to press their interests, while the UK has availed of our difficulties to remind us who our "real friends" are. The EU - at least in the shape of the Commission and the Parliament - have largely supported both interest rate reductions and burden-sharing. France has a veto on the former, the ECB and the US are opposed to the latter.

Not simple at all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick

I'm not suggesting that it's simple, and also I didn't mean to appear to be utterly bashing the EU and utterly siding with the IMF.

What I mean though is that when this story first broke, "IMF" was a filthy word, but "EU aid" didn't seem quite so bad. The media concentrated on the ominous nature of an IMF visit rather than how bad an EU package might also be.

Whereas in my view, it's now seeming actually that the IMF are suggesting less harsh measures than the EU, so perhaps giving Chopra the "Mr. Chopper" title was just a little unfair?

RichardAnd

The EU is nothing more than the latest chapter in a long story of the most dysfunctional neighbours on earth; the Europeans. Since the fall of the Roman Empire, european nations have been fighting and stabbing each other in the back. There have been countless alliances and treaties signed over the years but all save the most loose and free of these broke down because their parent states either started to argue or, more likely, because the treaty itself was merely part of some wider scheme.

Today, we have the European Union which is an attempt to turn Europe into some sort of superstate like the USA. However, the are a few problems, namely that most of the larger members hate each other and look down on the smaller states. I don't think something like that will last much longer.

Sand

Well, I guess. The popular fear was the IMF, a fiction popularised by various trendy left novels and commentators that portrayed the IMF as some sort of bloodsucking vampires that somehow managed to takeover otherwise healthy economies and run them into the ground. The ECB and the wider EU were seen as our partners and friends. Thats since been challenged - the IMF arent our friends but they have a simple objective which aligns with ours: Getting Ireland Inc back in order and functioning ASAP. Thats about far as they go - theyll be tough and ruthless in achieving that objective, being hard on us if we slack of but in the end their interests begin and end with Ireland being released back into the wild, hale and hearty, and hopefully wiser for the experience.

The ECB and our EU partners have a different, vastly more complex objective. They've entered the bailout with the aim of protecting themselves, the eurozone and to string Ireland up as an example for potentially intractable problems in Spain and even Italy. They dont have any real interest in seeing Ireland Inc doing anything other than hanging on, somehow. Their main objective is to ensure Irelands treatment is so horrific that Spain and Italy do anything and everything in their power to avoid falling into the hands of Trichet & Co.

The_Thing

I hope to God I'll live long enough to see the entire European Union fall asunder - in the meantime I'm going to have another batch of my "FxxK The EU" car stickers printed.

RichardAnd

The_Thing wrote: »

I hope to God I'll live long enough to see the entire European Union fall asunder - in the meantime I'm going to have another batch of my "FxxK The EU" car stickers printed.

I think there are still a few knocking about from the 70s when we originally joined.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote:

I'm not suggesting that it's simple, and also I didn't mean to appear to be utterly bashing the EU and utterly siding with the IMF.

What I mean though is that when this story first broke, "IMF" was a filthy word, but "EU aid" didn't seem quite so bad. The media concentrated on the ominous nature of an IMF visit rather than how bad an EU package might also be.

Whereas in my view, it's now seeming actually that the IMF are suggesting less harsh measures than the EU, so perhaps giving Chopra the "Mr. Chopper" title was just a little unfair?

That's fair enough, and I tend to agree with Sand on that - the IMF has been painted as a vehicle for international financial interests to rob otherwise only slightly unhealthy countries back into poverty.

Sand wrote: »

The ECB and our EU partners have a different, vastly more complex objective. They've entered the bailout with the aim of protecting themselves, the eurozone and to string Ireland up as an example for potentially intractable problems in Spain and even Italy. They dont have any real interest in seeing Ireland Inc doing anything other than hanging on, somehow. Their main objective is to ensure Irelands treatment is so horrific that Spain and Italy do anything and everything in their power to avoid falling into the hands of Trichet & Co.

The EU also has an interest in seeing us hale and hearty, and the technocratic Commission, like the technocratic IMF, have been largely supportive of our efforts to reduce the burden of our debts. The other democratic governments of the EU, on the other hand, have to take account of how their voters feel about bailing out other countries. I appreciate it's hard to take on board, but we're not actually popular out there - either at the level of the general public in the countries funding the bailout, nor at the diplomatic level, courtesy of Fianna Fáil's abject failure to keep EU allies sweet during the Tiger years.

cordially,
Scofflaw

tenchi-fan

The funny thing, the other day I was reading up Ireland joining the EU.

Pre-1945, Germany tried to unite Europe by force.

1945–1957, To ensure Germany could never threaten the peace again, a community was formed to integrate the coal and steel industries of Europe - the two elements necessary to make weapons of war. Britain was a proponent of this community which was designed to keep an eye on Germany.
Oh, and Ireland gain independence from the UK!

1958–1972, EEC was developed as a customs union.
Ireland sees the benefits of a large market to trade to but won't join without Britain.

1973–1991, enlargement of EEC and extension of community powers regarding foreign policy.
UK and Ireland join.

1992-2000, Inflation rate controls, exchange rates locked, government debt and deficit controls. "Which won't erode sovereignty as we still have control over fiscal policy".
Britain takes a step back. But Ireland discovered a neat trick. Be part of Europe, but have a much lower corporation tax rate so the money flows into Ireland! And Europe seems pissed off... yet they're not taking actions against us.. hehehe (visual imagine of the lucky charms leprechaun mooning Germany)

2001-2007 - More weak states join as power continues to be centralised to the strong states.
Er, they're copying us with the low Corporation tax but Ireland reached a stage where we have an affluent, educated population and most of our growth comes from our booming property mar........

2007-onwards - Financial crisis.
Uh-oh, no control over our interest rates, inflation or exchange rates. Irish government didn't even see it coming. Irish government try to preserve our status as a Developed country by trying to trick the market with smoke and mirrors e.g. NAMA. The international market weren't fooled. Pandered to German pressures by guaranteeing bonds in the same way deposits are guaranteed. And took over all the bank's hundreds of billions of bad debt from speculative land deals .. ABANDON SHIP!!!

2011 Germany and France tell us to increase taxes. Germany whispers "softly softly catchy monkey..." and the lucky charms leprechaun is forced to depart with his lucky charms.

WHAT JUST HAPPENED?!


Now, we're like a gambler trying to chase their losses. We keep thinking, once we clear this hump things will go back to normal. We're still a developed country, right? We won't have to go back to imposing trade barriers on cheap Eastern European imports? We won't have to go back to digging for potatoes? People won't have to resort to sending their kids out to picking up pieces of coal that fell from a coal lorry? Or using jam jars because they can't afford glassware?

Maybe the Germans will have mercy on us? We're one of them, right? We're white...

I'm just waiting for German tanks to be seen rolling down O'Connell Street.

Welcome to Ireland, 2011 onwards.

caseyann

What Irish have to learn is that the only people who will protect the rights of Irish people and ourselves is ourselves.No one cares truly about the people in this country except eachother.
And all of them are wolves,they look out for their own pockets and to make sure their own economies dont suffer and they would be like loan sharks.

Monty Burnz

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Maybe the Germans will have mercy on us? We're one of them, right? We're white...

I'm just waiting for German tanks to be seen rolling down O'Connell Street.

Welcome to Ireland, 2011 onwards.

This reads like the type of analysis that a teenage reader of the Eagle comic circa. 1986 might come up with.

Have you ever lived in Germany? Do you know any of 'Ze Germans'? Or do you belong to that odd minority who can travel the world without ever seeing past their preconceptions? Where do you get these nice simple 2 dimensional pictures of whole nations from?

Seriously, I thought this type of thinking was left behind in the 1940s, where it properly belongs.

caseyann

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This reads like the type of analysis that a teenage reader of the Eagle comic circa. 1986 might come up with.

Have you ever lived in Germany? Do you know any of 'Ze Germans'? Or do you belong to that odd minority who can travel the world without ever seeing past their preconceptions? Where do you get these nice simple 2 dimensional pictures of whole nations from?

Seriously, I thought this type of thinking was left behind in the 1940s, where it properly belongs.

I think the last part was a joke of sorts,the rest of the post was correct.

ascanbe

They're both wolves.

tenchi-fan

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Seriously, I thought this type of thinking was left behind in the 1940s, where it properly belongs.

I know! tell ze Germans that!

I'm not saying are wrong or that they are evil. I'm just saying they were around a lot longer than us and are a lot wiser. Do you remember those graphs where we gloated at our economic growth compared to the rest of the EU?

They were built their house on rock. We built our tower on sand.

Prakari

1: Let the natural functioning of the monetary system collapse the economy of a country.
2: Lend this indebted country money, thereby gaining political influence.
3: Use this political influence to increase privatisation.
4: Multinational corporations now have the opportunity to make profits from the once public assets of the country.

Pete_Cavan

Prakari wrote: »

1: Let the natural functioning of the monetary system collapse the economy of a country.

What does that even mean? What is the "natural functioning of the monetary system"? There are always constraints within which you must manage your economy, whether you have full control over your currency, interest rates, etc. or you are part of a larger economic union. We failed to manage our economy within the constraints that existed, that is why our economy collapsed.

2: Lend this indebted country money, thereby gaining political influence.

Who exactly has gained political influence from lending us money? The austerity measures are necessary and we have to get our budget deficit under control regardless. The French seem to be the main ones that have a problem with our corporate tax rate, which is ridiculous because their effective tax rate can be lower than ours. We can also veto any changes to corporate tax system (thanks to the Lisbon Treaty) so nobody has gained influence there.

3: Use this political influence to increase privatisation.

Conspiracy Theories forum is here

4: Multinational corporations now have the opportunity to make profits from the once public assets of the country.

Removing once public assets from overly bureaucratic and grossly inefficient state backed monopolies who overcharge the citizens who apparently own these assets. I hate when people make out that private companies making a profit is a bad thing - a big chunk of our economy is built on attracting private companies here so they pay lower taxes and can increase profits. I would rather buy utilities, get transport, etc. from a private company who is profitable because they run their business efficiently than pay directly for crap services from state/semi-state companies while also subsidising them through the taxes I pay.

newmug

I think the chinese are the wolves. They're getting their foot in the door with this compound in Athlone. Not good:(

hatrickpatrick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This reads like the type of analysis that a teenage reader of the Eagle comic circa. 1986 might come up with.

Have you ever lived in Germany? Do you know any of 'Ze Germans'? Or do you belong to that odd minority who can travel the world without ever seeing past their preconceptions? Where do you get these nice simple 2 dimensional pictures of whole nations from?

Seriously, I thought this type of thinking was left behind in the 1940s, where it properly belongs.

Nobody's talking about whole nations, we're talking about government policy. As for where we get the pictures from? Listening to the likes of Merkel.

CrinkElite

newmug wrote: »

I think the chinese are the wolves. They're getting their foot in the door with this compound in Athlone. Not good:(

The thing in athlone is a good thing in my opinion. They need a commercial base in Europe and we can provide that.
I don't have to tell you that China is setting up to be the largest economy in the world inside the next decade.
What country in their right mind wouldn't want to capatalise on this need?

wiseguy

Speaking of wolves

Fight between ECB, EU gov’ts over Greece gets dirty

The European Central Bank (ECB) has raised the stakes in its bid to prevent a restructuring of Greek debt by telling euro zone governments it would refuse to accept Greek bonds as collateral if they approved such a move.

newmug

CrinkElite wrote: »

The thing in athlone is a good thing in my opinion. They need a commercial base in Europe and we can provide that.
I don't have to tell you that China is setting up to be the largest economy in the world inside the next decade.
What country in their right mind wouldn't want to capatalise on this need?

Thats the scary part! I'd rather piss off the IMF, EU, USA, NAMA, NASA and French Foreign Legion put together than owe the chinese something and piss them off!

Owldshtok

caseyann wrote: »

What Irish have to learn is that the only people who will protect the rights of Irish people and ourselves is ourselves.No one cares truly about the people in this country except each other.
And all of them are wolves,they look out for their own pockets and to make sure their own economies dont suffer and they would be like loan sharks.

Do we really care about each other?Hopefully begrudgery wont come back to the extent that it was before the boom and that we have grown up a little as a nation as a result of this mess.

Owldshtok

newmug wrote: »

Thats the scary part! I'd rather piss off the IMF, EU, USA, NAMA, NASA and French Foreign Legion put together than owe the chinese something and piss them off!

What are they setting up in Athlone?

Boskowski

A bunch of spoilt children wailing and throwing their toys here.

Let me remind you how we have now almost 70 years of peace and prosperity in Europe. How did the 70 years before that go? Not so good I think.

Ireland has to man up here. The country manoeuvred herself within 15 years into a situation of an outrageous deficit and now starts kicking and screaming cos the big guys won't throw even more cheap credit at her. Ridiculous this discussion IMHO.

hatrickpatrick

Boskowski wrote: »

A bunch of spoilt children wailing and throwing their toys here.

Let me remind you how we have now almost 70 years of peace and prosperity in Europe. How did the 70 years before that go? Not so good I think.

Ireland has to man up here. The country manoeuvred herself within 15 years into a situation of an outrageous deficit and now starts kicking and screaming cos the big guys won't throw even more cheap credit at her. Ridiculous this discussion IMHO.

*sigh*
We're not kicking and screaming because we're not getting cheap credit, we're kicking and screaming because we're being forced to bail out private speculators with public money.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

*sigh*
We're not kicking and screaming because we're not getting cheap credit, we're kicking and screaming because we're being forced to bail out private speculators with public money.

Which, unfortunately, was the choice of our government. I appreciate that the ECB is now holding the line on burning bondholders, but the unilateral actions of our previous government means that most of the bondholders are long since paid off anyway. What's left is largely Irish, as far as can be told, and burning it would save us relatively little, while creating probably larger headaches.

Unless, of course, we're talking about the money the ECB loaned our banks in order that they could carry out the policy of the previous government. The problem with that debt is that it's not the money of private speculators - instead, it is other countries' public money, loaned to our banks on behalf of our government in support of our government's policies. Retrospective disapproval of the government's policy isn't a particularly strong foundation for a case to repudiate those debts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Pandora2

Owldshtok wrote: »

Do we really care about each other?Hopefully begrudgery wont come back to the extent that it was before the boom and that we have grown up a little as a nation as a result of this mess.

Having been on boards for approx 8 weeks now, I am sceptical as to whether it is part of our psyche to look after each other............now I am not for one minute saying boards is fully representative of society, it never could be however, there are more threads here with people turning on one another than I imagined. Overweight v. thin (the overweight are more of a drain on the HSE, surely not:rolleyes:!), employed v. unemployed, private sector v. public, middle class v. lower classes, middle class v. wealthy, left v. right and so on........

Now, it is only my opinion but, are we not the product of this Country as well as the consumer, are our lives and the quality of them not the product that we elect our Governments to manage in terms of providing services?

Up until 8 weeks ago I was in a well paid job thinking that my future was fairly safe, not so. Then, being in the public service, I was used to attracting comments of how cushy I had it (even the ex husband tried that on one occasion!! He's ok now though:P). And when speaking to those employed within the private sector (I have worked in both areas in my time), I learned very quickly to keep my job to myself, now in the short matter of 2 months I must ready myself for the ire of those who have been lucky enough to hold on to their jobs thus far!! God forbid I should feel down and eat a packet of choccie biscs to cheer myself up....getting very close to being Public Enemy No. 1!!

I guess what I am saying is united we stand and divided we fall.....perhaps we should stop taking out our fears and frustrations on other citizens of our homeland and concentrate our efforts on demanding results from those we employ to manage Ireland Inc...if everyone on boards put aside their prejudices regarding weight, employment status, class and wealth and put their not inconsiderable talents and intelligence into taking on the Government on their results and progress, it would be a very powerful lobby...open to correction here folks:o

Owldshtok

Pandora2 wrote: »

Having been on boards for approx 8 weeks now, I am sceptical as to whether it is part of our psyche to look after each other............now I am not for one minute saying boards is fully representative of society, it never could be however, there are more threads here with people turning on one another than I imagined. Overweight v. thin (the overweight are more of a drain on the HSE, surely not:rolleyes:!), employed v. unemployed, private sector v. public, middle class v. lower classes, middle class v. wealthy, left v. right and so on........

Now, it is only my opinion but, are we not the product of this Country as well as the consumer, are our lives and the quality of them not the product that we elect our Governments to manage in terms of providing services?

Up until 8 weeks ago I was in a well paid job thinking that my future was fairly safe, not so. Then, being in the public service, I was used to attracting comments of how cushy I had it (even the ex husband tried that on one occasion!! He's ok now though:P). And when speaking to those employed within the private sector (I have worked in both areas in my time), I learned very quickly to keep my job to myself, now in the short matter of 2 months I must ready myself for the ire of those who have been lucky enough to hold on to their jobs thus far!! God forbid I should feel down and eat a packet of choccie biscs to cheer myself up....getting very close to being Public Enemy No. 1!!

I guess what I am saying is united we stand and divided we fall.....perhaps we should stop taking out our fears and frustrations on other citizens of our homeland and concentrate our efforts on demanding results from those we employ to manage Ireland Inc...if everyone on boards put aside their prejudices regarding weight, employment status, class and wealth and put their not inconsiderable talents and intelligence into taking on the Government on their results and progress, it would be a very powerful lobby...open to correction here folks:o

Im not advocating a group hug,just hoping that because nearly everyone is worse off as a result of the economic crisis it will leave less room for begrudgery to take hold in a big way again

Pandora2

Owldshtok wrote: »

Im not advocating a group hug,just hoping that because nearly everyone is worse off as a result of the economic crisis it will leave less room for begrudgery to take hold in a big way again

If a group hug broke out I suspect it would only be after Ireland had won the World Cup or an achievement of that nature! Now there is something that bonds us together:D Rich and poor, fat & thin, left and right all singing Ole! Ole! Ole!

Sand

Scofflaw wrote: »

The EU also has an interest in seeing us hale and hearty, and the technocratic Commission, like the technocratic IMF, have been largely supportive of our efforts to reduce the burden of our debts. The other democratic governments of the EU, on the other hand, have to take account of how their voters feel about bailing out other countries. I appreciate it's hard to take on board, but we're not actually popular out there - either at the level of the general public in the countries funding the bailout, nor at the diplomatic level, courtesy of Fianna Fáil's abject failure to keep EU allies sweet during the Tiger years.

Theres no indication of this interest Scoff.

And I 100% agree we are not popular out there, at an official or public level. Which is why I dont share your optimism that the ECB, Germany and France are suddenly going to arise and craft an actual solution for us in the face of that increasingly difficult political enviroment. Nor do I share your view that its a good idea to place Irelands future in the hands of people who do not like us.

RichardAnd

Owldshtok wrote: »

Im not advocating a group hug,just hoping that because nearly everyone is worse off as a result of the economic crisis it will leave less room for begrudgery to take hold in a big way again

But it won't. During the boom, the mirror opposite of what you've just said might have been believed. That is to say, it might have been assumed that the as "everyone" was better off for the economic boom, it would leave less room for begrudgery; it didn't. During the boom, people were just a quick to begrude as they are now, albeit for slightly different reasons.

You see, IReland is a nation absolutly and totally addicted to begrudery and this has been picked up on by the powers that be. Look at the policies that have been made and the media reports, look how many of them favour one group over another. This is why the Irish appear so meek in accepting the dictates from the government and the EU, we don't don't protest because we're far, far too busy complaining about the many next door.

As PAndora quite rightly points out, the attitude of some posters in here absolutly stinks and whilst this isn't a representation of Ireland as a whole, it can be taken as a taste of the national outlook.

caseyann

Owldshtok wrote: »

Do we really care about each other?Hopefully begrudgery wont come back to the extent that it was before the boom and that we have grown up a little as a nation as a result of this mess.

Put it this way,if someone says all Irish are drunks and lazy and stupid,i am first to defend all our people.Like family for me i might be not be able to stand someone on here,but in heart beat would defend them against someone else.
Personally i think the begrudging came within the boom.Eyes grew bigger than their bellies and alot of people got dragged into the money rubbish.
We were alot more mature as a nation before the so called boom.It wasnt really a boom it was a mere scratch card.
Some wouldnt care what others say about our country men/women.But here is a question would you care.
Do you wish others the best and dont begrudge others of happiness and success?
I am sure you do so thats two of us and many more to add to that.
But the truth is love for your family being Irish or love for your friends being Irish etc.. is something no other group have but us Irish.
I hope you get my point,sorry a bit tired.
The only reason they are going to be watching Irish problems is because they have no choice.Irish though will because its our life and our country.

Pandora2

caseyann wrote: »

Put it this way,if someone says all Irish are drunks and lazy and stupid,i am first to defend all our people.Like family for me i might be not be able to stand someone on here,but in heart beat would defend them against someone else.
Personally i think the begrudging came within the boom.Eyes grew bigger than their bellies and alot of people got dragged into the money rubbish.
We were alot more mature as a nation before the so called boom.It wasnt really a boom it was a mere scratch card.
Some wouldnt care what others say about our country men/women.But here is a question would you care.
Do you wish others the best and dont begrudge others of happiness and success?
I am sure you do so thats two of us and many more to add to that.
But the truth is love for your family being Irish or love for your friends being Irish etc.. is something no other group have but us Irish.
I hope you get my point,sorry a bit tired.
The only reason they are going to be watching Irish problems is because they have no choice.Irish though will because its our life and our country.

Group Hug:D

hatrickpatrick

Scofflaw wrote: »

Which, unfortunately, was the choice of our government. I appreciate that the ECB is now holding the line on burning bondholders, but the unilateral actions of our previous government means that most of the bondholders are long since paid off anyway. What's left is largely Irish, as far as can be told, and burning it would save us relatively little, while creating probably larger headaches.

Unless, of course, we're talking about the money the ECB loaned our banks in order that they could carry out the policy of the previous government. The problem with that debt is that it's not the money of private speculators - instead, it is other countries' public money, loaned to our banks on behalf of our government in support of our government's policies. Retrospective disapproval of the government's policy isn't a particularly strong foundation for a case to repudiate those debts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

If - and be honest here, I won't judge you :P - if the government had never issued the guarantee and had simply allowed the banks to fail, do you think Europe would have accepted this decision?

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If - and be honest here, I won't judge you :P - if the government had never issued the guarantee and had simply allowed the banks to fail, do you think Europe would have accepted this decision?

In my opinion, yes. First, if you remember it was our Government (and Oireachtas) shouting "Save the Irish banks", not the Commission, ECB or other member states shouting "Save the EU banks". Second, the issue of them accepting or not accepting the decision doesn't arise since had a decision to let them fail been made here, there is no EU level decision procedure which could override the government's decision. Hence, all this "The EU made us do it" stuff is just a poor excuse for facing up to "A domestic democratic decision was made to do it".

wiseguy

View wrote: »

In my opinion, yes. First, if you remember it was our Government (and Oireachtas) shouting "Save the Irish banks", not the Commission, ECB or other member states shouting "Save the EU banks". Second, the issue of them accepting or not accepting the decision doesn't arise since had a decision to let them fail been made here, there is no EU level decision procedure which could override the government's decision. Hence, all this "The EU made us do it" stuff is just a poor excuse for facing up to "A domestic democratic decision was made to do it".

There is a huge hole in your argument, the continuing insistence from ECB and EU on not allowing bondholders to be burned at any cost.

dan_d

Pandora2 wrote: »

N Then, being in the public service, I was used to attracting comments of how cushy I had it (even the ex husband tried that on one occasion!! He's ok now though:P). And when speaking to those employed within the private sector (I have worked in both areas in my time), I learned very quickly to keep my job to myself, now in the short matter of 2 months I must ready myself for the ire of those who have been lucky enough to hold on to their jobs thus far!! God forbid I should feel down and eat a packet of choccie biscs to cheer myself up....getting very close to being Public Enemy No. 1!!

I've got close family working in Anglo - let's just for the last 2 years, if anyone asks, her answer is "I work in an office"....she said the amount of abuse that she was getting for where she worked was phenomenal. And she has only been there the last 2 years or so. So don't worry, you're not the only one!!!

COYW

sollar wrote: »

I don't think this Christine Lagarde will be much of a friend to us either if she takes over from DSK.

Most definitely. Quite frankly, she is the last person we need to get the job out of all the candidates.

COYW

dan_d wrote: »

I've got close family working in Anglo - let's just for the last 2 years, if anyone asks, her answer is "I work in an office"....she said the amount of abuse that she was getting for where she worked was phenomenal. And she has only been there the last 2 years or so. So don't worry, you're not the only one!!!

One of my closest female friends works in AIB and we always joke that she should say that she works the streets instead of saying that she works in there.

View

wiseguy wrote: »

There is a huge hole in your argument, the continuing insistence from ECB and EU on not allowing bondholders to be burned at any cost.

You might want to re-read hatrickpatrick's question again. It was:

... if the government had never issued the guarantee ...

My answer was based on that.

However, the government did issue the guarantee which set us off down a different financial road.

RichardAnd

COYW wrote: »

One of my closest female friends works in AIB and we always joke that she should say that she works the streets instead of saying that she works in there.

A friend of mine works in AIB's IT section. He once joked that he'd like to work in Anglo's just to be able to tell people and see their reaction

Bits_n_Bobs

The amount of bile being flung at Germans on this thread is obscene. Grow the **** up and leave the racist stereotyping out of it.

If I remember correctly when the loan package was being put together originally for Greece the Irish government (along with all the other European governments) voted for a punitive interest rate to apply to the loan. Now we scream that the Germans / French hate us because they are applied the same rate of interest on the loan to us as they did to the Greeks?

There may now be a valid reason to lower the interest rate, and I am sure as soon as they remember our 1% of the European population and finish dealing with emergencies that effect 99% of the European population, they may lower it. To be honest I think the interest rate is a total red herring, as is the money wasted on the banks.

The problem is we are spending too much. We could collectively tell the IMF, the ECB, France and Germans and whoever else exactly where to go if we did not need to borrow money from the same people to ensure our ATM's keep working, our public servants keep getting paid and that we can still provide people with social welfare and pensions.

Racist ranting about Germans is not going to help us balance our own budget.

(having said that - I am all for nasty comments in Sarkozy's direction )