Some questions

tenchi-fan

I believe every government initiative backfires and just adds to the public sector payroll and the country's debt. I challenge someone to prove me wrong on that.

I also believe all politicians, Irish politicians in particular, have policies which mix the worst of socialism, where they trust people - including themselves - to be anything but greedy, and mix it with the worst of capitalism, where they line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends.

But more and more I ask why people feel the need to bow and scrape to prop up a socialist government of a bankrupt 26-county EU state. I think we are misplacing our loyalty.


So my questions to you are.....

1. Ireland (Republic of,) is a state of 4.5 million people. If you were in charge, how many public sector workers would you employ to help you manage services for this many people (excluding Gardai, teachers and healthcare workers)?

2. What is the highest percentage of your gross annual income you would pay as tax before refusing to pay any more tax?

3. What percentage of your gross annual income do you expect to donate to worthy causes next year?

4. How many years ago would you need to go back before you would say "Holy ****, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Ireland any more"?

(some food for thought while considering this question: Ireland became a Christian country 1400 years ago. The norman invasions began 844 years ago. 252 years ago Arthur Guinness brewed his first ale. Ireland became an integral part of the UK 211 years ago. 124 years ago Gaelic football was first codified. Ireland gained independence 63 years ago. We joined the European Economic Community 38 years ago. Bobby Sands smeared his **** on prison walls 33 years ago. Zig and Zag went to Channel 4 19 years ago. The good Friday agreement was signed 11 years ago.)

sollar

tenchi-fan wrote: »

I believe every government initiative backfires and just adds to the public sector payroll and the country's debt. I challenge someone to prove me wrong on that.

I also believe all politicians, Irish politicians in particular, have policies which mix the worst of socialism, where they trust people - including themselves - to be anything but greedy, and mix it with the worst of capitalism, where they line their own pockets and the pockets of their friends.

But more and more I ask why people feel the need to bow and scrape to prop up a socialist government of a bankrupt 26-county EU state. I think we are misplacing our loyalty.


So my questions to you are.....

1. Ireland (Republic of,) is a state of 4.5 million people. If you were in charge, how many public sector workers would you employ to help you manage services for this many people (excluding Gardai, teachers and healthcare workers)?

2. What is the highest percentage of your gross annual income you would pay as tax before refusing to pay any more tax?

3. What percentage of your gross annual income do you expect to donate to worthy causes next year?

4. How many years ago would you need to go back before you would say "Holy ****, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Ireland any more"?

(some food for thought while considering this question: Ireland became a Christian country 1400 years ago. The norman invasions began 844 years ago. 252 years ago Arthur Guinness brewed his first ale. Ireland became an integral part of the UK 211 years ago. 124 years ago Gaelic football was first codified. Ireland gained independence 63 years ago. We joined the European Economic Community 38 years ago. Bobby Sands smeared his **** on prison walls 33 years ago. Zig and Zag went to Channel 4 19 years ago. The good Friday agreement was signed 11 years ago.)

You missed something vital to the country's woes. The social welfare bill. It stands at about 21 billion and accounts for 2/3 of government revenues. You start with a focus on the public sector public sector paybill which happens to be less than the social welfare bill. What is the point of another ps dominated thread??

Head The Wall

Who's responsible for the size of the welfare bill, yes the failed govt mentioned in the OP. Stop trying to deflect.

BornToKill

tenchi-fan wrote: »

But more and more I ask why people feel the need to bow and scrape to prop up a socialist government of a bankrupt 26-county EU state. I think we are misplacing our loyalty.

This would be the government democratically chosen by the people in a general election just two months ago? What alternative are you suggesting instead?

tenchi-fan

sollar wrote: »

You missed something vital to the country's woes. The social welfare bill. It stands at about 21 billion and accounts for 2/3 of government revenues. You start with a focus on the public sector public sector paybill which happens to be less than the social welfare bill. What is the point of another ps dominated thread??

When I say public sector I am talking about people the government employ in an attempt to administer the tax, welfare and regulatory systems... the more bloated the system, the more tax people pay, and the more damaged the system becomes.

High social welfare is a government initiative after all.. because by taxing workers and giving their money to welfare recipients the money is redistributed to people who will spend it immediately rather than attempt to save it.. so it turns one part of society into indentured slaves and another segment into a social underclass incapable of even supporting themselves or doing an hours work in an entire year.

tenchi-fan

BornToKill wrote: »

This would be the government democratically chosen by the people in a general election just two months ago? What alternative are you suggesting instead?

We punished FF by putting FG into power.... come on, we need to seriously consider that Irish people are brainwashed .. Apparently Ireland's history is that we were a proud and noble people until that brits came 800 years ago, we gained our independence in 1916, began to enjoy GAA, guinness and wheaten bread.. but then the catholic church plunged the country into the dark ages.

Maybe better education in schools?

RichardAnd

tenchi-fan wrote: »

We punished FF by putting FG into power.... come on, we need to seriously consider that Irish people are brainwashed .. Apparently Ireland's history is that we were a proud and noble people until that brits came 800 years ago, we gained our independence in 1916, began to enjoy GAA, guinness and wheaten bread.. but then the catholic church plunged the country into the dark ages.

Maybe better education in schools?

Do you know the brits came in at all? It was at the request of an Irish high king. And the Catholic Church did not plunge the country into darkness. The church's ill doings were carried out by irish people within their ranks. There was no conspiracy to keep people down, the abuses going on in institutes were also going on in family home across the country but this is too much for people to accept so, instead, society plays the blame game once again and points the finger at the church rather than accept that our culture and mentality are rotten to the core.

We also did not gain independence in 1916, that did not come until several years later when we gained dominion status from a treaty that caused a civil war.

tenchi-fan

RichardAnd wrote: »

Do you know the brits came in at all? It was at the request of an Irish high king. And the Catholic Church did not plunge the country into darkness. The church's ill doings were carried out by irish people within their ranks. There was no conspiracy to keep people down, the abuses going on in institutes were also going on in family home across the country but this is too much for people to accept so, instead, society plays the blame game once again and points the finger at the church rather than accept that our culture and mentality are rotten to the core.

We also did not gain independence in 1916, that did not come until several years later when we gained dominion status from a treaty that caused a civil war.

Congratulations, RichardAnd, you get a vote

RichardAnd

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Congratulations, RichardAnd, you get a vote

I don't know what you mean by that but the bolded text is the truth as I see it and I've worked for the Catholic Church in the past so I know them quite well.

tenchi-fan

RichardAnd wrote: »

I don't know what you mean by that but the bolded text is the truth as I see it and I've worked for the Catholic Church in the past so I know them quite well.

I'm agreeing with you 100%. The past 100 years have shaped Irish values, but Irish values are rotten to the core.

I think it was the paddywhackery of pouring a pint of guinness for the queen (while ryan tubridy gawked in the background) sent me over the edge.

The guinness employee explained "a wonderful colour we get from the roasted bawley and the extra hops..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQyioWeEMDw

They should have taken her to a rehab centre and said "actually, this is what happens when you base your culture around alcohol"

RichardAnd

tenchi-fan wrote: »

I'm agreeing with you 100%. The past 100 years have shaped Irish values, but Irish values are rotten to the core.

I think it was the paddywhackery of pouring a pint of guinness for the queen (while ryan tubridy gawked in the background) sent me over the edge.

The guinness employee explained "a wonderful colour we get from the roasted bawley and the extra hops..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQyioWeEMDw

They should have taken her to a rehab centre and said "actually, this is what happens when you base your culture around alcohol"

Ahh ok, sorry

Yes, I seen the queen being offered a pint which was a foolish thing to do as she never eats nor drinks in public. It reminded me of the time Bertie took a rather bemused Bill Clinton for a pint but where as Bill was a womanising president, the Queen is a monarch and can't be seen sipping on a pint. Still, I think Prince Philip fancied a swig...

BornToKill

tenchi-fan wrote: »

come on, we need to seriously consider that Irish people are brainwashed

Historically it's quite a dangerous line of argument when groups start to think they know better than the people. That's true for our own country and abroad.

tenchi-fan

BornToKill wrote: »

Historically it's quite a dangerous line of argument when groups start to think they know better than the people. That's true for our own country and abroad.

But I DO know better than a lot of people! I'm not going to be bashful and say otherwise.

sarumite

sollar wrote: »

You missed something vital to the country's woes. The social welfare bill. It stands at about 21 billion and accounts for 2/3 of government revenues. You start with a focus on the public sector public sector paybill which happens to be less than the social welfare bill. What is the point of another ps dominated thread??

PS wage bill accounts for over 1/2 of all government revenue (btw, using revenue and not expenditure is BS, but I am happy to play your game)....how is ignoring the PS wage bill and focusing on social welfare bill any better than ignoring the social welfare bill and focusing on the PS wage bill?

sollar

tenchi-fan wrote: »

High social welfare is a government initiative after all.. because by taxing workers and giving their money to welfare recipients the money is redistributed to people who will spend it immediately rather than attempt to save it..

The same argument could be made for low to medium paid public servants.

BornToKill

tenchi-fan wrote: »

But I DO know better than a lot of people! I'm not going to be bashful and say otherwise.

Do you also consider that you know what's best for people? Even if that is not what they want for themselves?

tenchi-fan

RichardAnd wrote: »

Ahh ok, sorry

Yes, I seen the queen being offered a pint which was a foolish thing to do as she never eats nor drinks in public. It reminded me of the time Bertie took a rather bemused Bill Clinton for a pint but where as Bill was a womanising president, the Queen is a monarch and can't be seen sipping on a pint. Still, I think Prince Philip fancied a swig...

I'm sure he did. But it was a PR move. Diageo is an American PLC. For a start, we shouldn't have given them the free commercial starring Queen Elizabeth II, Price Philip, Ryan Tubridy and a host of special guests. It was tacky.

But worse (in my opinion) is that it reinforced the stereotype that Guinness is the pinnacle of Irishness. And for Irish people it actually is. We cringe when we hear the yanks talk about Leprechauns and Shamrock and yet we fawn over a mass-produced, mass-marketed ice-cold beer that doesn't even resemble what Arthur Guinness brewed while he ran a brewery. Most of it isn't even produced in Ireland any more.

RichardAnd

tenchi-fan wrote: »

I'm sure he did. But it was a PR move. Diageo is an American PLC. For a start, we shouldn't have given them the free commercial starring Queen Elizabeth II, Price Philip, Ryan Tubridy and a host of special guests. It was tacky.

But worse (in my opinion) is that it reinforced the stereotype that Guinness is the pinnacle of Irishness. And for Irish people it actually is. We cringe when we hear the yanks talk about Leprechauns and Shamrock and yet we fawn over a mass-produced, mass-marketed ice-cold beer that doesn't even resemble what Arthur Guinness brewed while he ran a brewery. Most of it isn't even produced in Ireland any more.

The company I work for does alot of work for Diageo and I can tell you that guiness is ONLY made in Ireland. Other countries produce it but the concentrate for the drink is made right here and nowhere else.

I think Guinness is something we have to be proud of. It's provided jobs for generations of Irish people and the brewery itself is rich with history. I do agree that Ryan Tubardy is far too big a prat to greet the Queen but then again, we did also treat her to a concert with Mary Byrne and Westlife so taste clearly wasn't high on our agenda

ardmacha

PS wage bill accounts for over 1/2 of all government revenue (btw, using revenue and not expenditure is BS, but I am happy to play your game)

Well you are obviously playing games of some sort, as PS wage will is about 1/3 of all government revenue.

tenchi-fan

BornToKill wrote: »

Do you also consider that you know what's best for people? Even if that is not what they want for themselves?

Of course I know what they want for themselves.

People want job stability, a work-life balance, a decent standard of living, security, healthcare, sanitation and education.

But government policy creates sub-classes of people who want essentially the same thing but cannot contribute to society
1. The underclass who want higher benefits.
2. Public sector workers and civil servants who administer the bureaucracy - like the tax collector in the bible.
3. Graduates! Hundreds of thousands of them thanks to grade inflation, in areas where there is no demand for employment or research. They usually revert to being a version of (1) with an even greater sense of entitlement.
4. Fás course do-ers. Similar to (1) only their main goal is to retain or increase their welfare payments

So what IS best for people?
Low tax so people keep the money they've worked for.
Low benefits so people aren't encouraged to scrounge.

And SIMPLE regulation to protect the ordinary citizens of a country from unscrupulous businesses and practices. Lets not forget the tens of thousands of public sector workers employed by regulatory bodies AND the gardai and courts... none of them could stop the financial meltdown of the banks because Big government is ineffective, unfair and a criminal waste of taxpayer's money.

BornToKill

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Of course I know what they want for themselves.

You want small government. The political party which came closest to offering that as an option, the Progressive Democrats, went out of business last year. What they offered evidently was not what the people wanted.

tenchi-fan

RichardAnd wrote: »

The company I work for does alot of work for Diageo and I can tell you that guiness is ONLY made in Ireland. Other countries produce it but the concentrate for the drink is made right here and nowhere else.

I think Guinness is something we have to be proud of. It's provided jobs for generations of Irish people and the brewery itself is rich with history. I do agree that Ryan Tubardy is far too big a prat to greet the Queen but then again, we did also treat her to a concert with Mary Byrne and Westlife so taste clearly wasn't high on our agenda

No problem, let Guinness have a part in Irish history.

But when you think of Irish rugby.. you think of Guinness.
When you think Gaa... guinness.
Irish? Guinness...

It's sad.

Another point is our bloody tricolour. The green white and gold. First off, it's not gold, it's orange. Second, the Royals aren't even "orange", they're Anglican. The orange are presbyterian. They're not loyal to the Queen, they're loyal to the Union (England, N Ireland, Scotland and Wales) as long as the monarch is not a catholic. No one is more reviled by Irish people than the anti-Irish orange order. So our flag doesn't even make sense!

Sorry if I'm going off on one. I just think this country has big problems, not just financial but we actually have identity issues! No wonder we're an economic basketcase.

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

Well you are obviously playing games of some sort, as PS wage will is about 1/3 of all government revenue.

Let me correct myself, I should have said the PS pay and pension bill is 1/2 of the government revenue (for 2010, which I assume was the same year sollar was referring to).

Noreen1

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Another point is our bloody tricolour. The green white and gold. First off, it's not gold, it's orange. Second, the Royals aren't even "orange", they're Anglican. The orange are presbyterian. They're not loyal to the Queen, they're loyal to the Union (England, N Ireland, Scotland and Wales) as long as the monarch is not a catholic. No one is more reviled by Irish people than the anti-Irish orange order. So our flag doesn't even make sense!

The tricolour makes perfect sense, actually.

It symbolises the desire for peace between the "Green" and the "Orange".

It's a very laudable aspiration. It's just a pity that the bitterness of some people has prevented the aspiration becoming a true reality - yet.........

Finnbar01

tenchi-fan wrote: »

We punished FF by putting FG into power.... come on, we need to seriously consider that Irish people are brainwashed .. Apparently Ireland's history is that we were a proud and noble people until that brits came 800 years ago, we gained our independence in 1916, began to enjoy GAA, guinness and wheaten bread.. but then the catholic church plunged the country into the dark ages.

Maybe better education in schools?

You've got to stop feeding the parasite (state) tenchi. Become more self sufficent, pay as little tax as possible, become less and less reliant on State services. Starve the beast. It is the only way.

Owldshtok

Finnbar01 wrote: »

You've got to stop feeding the parasite (state) tenchi. Become more self sufficent, pay as little tax as possible, become less and less reliant on State services. Starve the beast. It is the only way.

As long as Im ok to hell with anyone who might need state services like the sick or the elderly or the disabled

Finnbar01

Owldshtok wrote: »

As long as Im ok to hell with anyone who might need state services like the sick or the elderly or the disabled

Owldshtok I have elderly and sick people that I look after the whole time (with the help of other family members). I try and stay as healthy as I can as I don't have a medical card, am unemployed and have limited savings. Too many people in this country are too reliant on the government for their living.

Owldshtok

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Owldshtok I have elderly and sick people that I look after the whole time (with the help of other family members). I try and stay as healthy as I can as I don't have a medical card, am unemployed and have limited savings. Too many people in this country are too reliant on the government for their living.

Sorry I took you up the wrong way,the words parasite and beast gave me the wrong impression.Self sufficiency is a great thing to work towards.Yes,lots of people have been spoilt by the over generous welfare.

dan_d

I don't know...most people work and look after themselves. The welfare is a safety net. There's a minority who consider it to be a career to be on welfare.

People are not as reliant on welfare as you might think. When they are getting the dole, yes they are "reliant" on the money. But most (well, where we are now..) are actually trying to get work because they don't want to be reliant on welfare.

As for health systems - well look, we all get sick sometime. I'm lucky to have good health, but I still pay health insurance (and tax for the health system, but let's face it, that's not a choice!). I'm also unemployed - I doubt I'd qualify for a medical card or anything of the like, but I won't be applying for it anyway. None of us know what's around the corner for our health, so you have to have a system in place that people can rely on when they are sick.

Pandora2

tenchi-fan wrote: »

2. Public sector workers and civil servants who administer the bureaucracy - like the tax collector in the bible.

So I am reading, please correct me if I'm wrong...Gardai, Nurses, Teachers, Fire Service all necessary but, it is those engaged in the administration of services that are the problem??

Who EXACTLY is going to collect and disperse the taxes, who is gonna pay the above-mentioned people, who is going to provide them with Human Resource services as they are entitled to as an employee? Who is going to organise the rota's for health service staff, make appointments for Joe Public when they need access to medical assistance. Who is going to ensure that we pay dole only to those who are entitled and manage a system that is not so comfortable as to allow the recipient to remain on welfare. Who is going to ensure that immigration officials are managed in such a way as to best protect our borders? I could go on and on!!

I take great exception to your analogy!! It is crude and, imo, ill-conceived....nothing in society works without administration!! I am all for rationalisation (just recently been rationalised myself:() however, just because administrators don't give you medicine, put out a fire, fill in a pothole or teach your kids does not mean they are surplus to requirements, I would hate to see the "Front Liners" if someone was not in an office somewhere moving the paper so that they knew where to be, what to do and be reasonably sure of getting paid..............CHAOS!!

tenchi-fan

Pandora2 wrote: »

I take great exception to your analogy!! It is crude and, imo, ill-conceived....nothing in society works without administration!!

I think you fail to understand my point.

I'm not saying we don't need civil servants or public sector workers.. we just need fewer of them.

I'm suggesting a simpler tax system so that everyone pays tax, they just pay a lot less tax. imo paying at least 20% on income, and in some cases over 50%, tax breaks for developers, and vat at 21% and rising are all pretty disgraceful.

Also a simpler welfare system, where fewer people receive less welfare.
This system would be simpler to administer and require fewer staff.

Stop letting the government play god by deciding what's best for the people while the bureaucracy takes its cut.

Pandora2

tenchi-fan wrote: »

2. Public sector workers and civil servants who administer the bureaucracy - like the tax collector in the bible.

I did not 'Fail' to understand you at all, I didn't even misunderstand you!! You were quite clear!!

Looks like you aspire to tax cuts in this climate:rolleyes: Good luck with that! I don't expect my grandchildren to see a reduction in their income tax liabilities in their lifetime:mad: let alone within my own!!!

Not worth arguing.....agree to differ:D