Old Dog and New Tricks ?

PaulBrewer

I'm considering going back to education with the goal of attaining a degree in a field related to music recording.

I'm being purposely vague because I haven't actually decided to do it .... or what to do.

What are the opinions of those with degrees, or who are studying for same, to the following questions ...

What benefit has/will a degree be to you?

Knowing what you know, would you do it again?

Why did you choose to do one in the first place?

How 'easy' did you find the work ?

How many hours, on average, did you spend per week on course work ?

Ta!

If you're happy with your Degree where did you do it and in what?

PaulBrewer

No replys ?

No one educated here then ?

krd

The benefits in having that degree, is you may be able get work teaching music technology somewhere - where they require a degree.

But Jazz, my man, is not something they can teach you in no college or university.

You may or may not be surprised. The vast majority of people who pass through those university courses, never end up either working in sound or music.

There's a strong possibility that you have more real world experience and knowledge than the people who may end up teaching you.

I would have loved to do one of these degrees at one point in my life. Now, I'm not so sure of their value (apart from being pieces of paper that open the door for a teaching career.) I know people who have done them expecting to learn the magic, only to be disappointed. They went in thinking they would become sorcerers, they emerged barely able to do card tricks.

Then the amount of time and effort it will take. If you have any academic experience, and you know most of the stuff already, you'll fly through it. If you don't - you might be advised to do some kind of return to education prep course.

Anyway, what do you want to do it for?

krd

If you really want to learn new tricks. Set yourself the task of learning how to make contemporary dance music. I don't mean learning the techniques - I mean actually making the stuff. I know you probably hate it and don't really get it. That's not really the point.

Also you think of trying your hand at sound design and soundtrack stuff. The thing that really sets contemporary film against stuff that was done back in the day is the sound design - even television uses very flash sound design these days. It's come a long way from the days when a man sat in a studio clopping two coconut shells together.

jtsuited

Can't think of any Degree (as in proper Degree) that is in any way related to sound recording.

I genuinely think the idea of any part of music technology (bar computer music - max/pd/csound/supercollider/proper sciency stuff) being taught formally is a complete waste of time and resources.
Fundamentally, the music technology education (outside the proper University system) area is a complete and utter racket, that results in absolutely fook all graduates working in the relevant areas, and if they are, it rarely ever has to do with their qualification.

Even with the proper university system, the only person I know who is working in sound engineering who did the same MA as me I coincidentally met at the exam to get into med-school.....which I suppose tells you how much he enjoys his job and how much of a future he sees in it.

krd

jtsuited wrote: »

Can't think of any Degree (as in proper Degree) that is in any way related to sound recording.

I don't know about Ireland - but I know outside of Ireland it's very common.

I genuinely think the idea of any part of music technology (bar computer music - max/pd/csound/supercollider/proper sciency stuff) being taught formally is a complete waste of time and resources.

But what other parts of music technology would you be talking about.

Fundamentally, the music technology education (outside the proper University system) area is a complete and utter racket, that results in absolutely fook all graduates working in the relevant areas, and if they are, it rarely ever has to do with their qualification.

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." Hunter S Thompson.

Every year in the UK, about 4,000 students study journalism or journalism related courses. At the very most only a few hundred of those students will ever work in Journalism. They're more likely to end up working as human resources muppets than working in journalism. There isn't even 4,000 working journalists in the UK. And many do not even have a degree or qualification to work in it.

So the "legit" universities are as much in on the scam as the private courses.

Even with the proper university system, the only person I know who is working in sound engineering who did the same MA as me I coincidentally met at the exam to get into med-school.....which I suppose tells you how much he enjoys his job and how much of a future he sees in it.

There is far more money in being a doctor than most people could ever find in music.

And no job is that enjoyable if you're completely broke all the time.

Neurojazz

I'd say make a list of what you think you are crap at an then deal with it / investigate.

I would say that courses fail (mostly) - BUT do give you primers in areas you might not know about, but to be honest I think you're way past that and need to get a video camera/notebook and go to real engineers / producers to get the low down on the areas you feel are lacking and turn it into something of use to others (video tutorials in exchange for exposure of the said engineers / producers facilities)

Then it's win/win all round!

krd

Neurojazz wrote: »

I'd say make a list of what you think you are crap at an then deal with it / investigate.

Do you have any particular systematic way doing that - making the lists and following through on them.

I was looking at some software before. Program management software for people with adult attention deficit disorder. You more or less create whatever it is your doing as a project. Fill out the bits and bobs - add bits as you go along - and work through it like a project. The idea is so it's never too overwhelming.

I have to look for it again. But the idea is you don't lose track of what you're at.

Neurojazz

krd wrote: »

Do you have any particular systematic way doing that - making the lists and following through on them.

I was looking at some software before. Program management software for people with adult attention deficit disorder. You more or less create whatever it is your doing as a project. Fill out the bits and bobs - add bits as you go along - and work through it like a project. The idea is so it's never too overwhelming.

I have to look for it again. But the idea is you don't lose track of what you're at.

Freemind is good (and free), plus google docs and the host of apps they supply now are also great (calenders and such) - I've made plans and expanded on them using the system like Freemind on paper in the past... I tend to just jam with it and see how much I get done and where it's led after a few years and then re-appraise direction and point in a new one if failing

And then open office (free) for everything else.#

Lists are good... always make them when I think of them - or if somewhere nowhere near paper i'd visualize something stupid like a 50ft women running around naked with whatever I needed to remember taped to her breasts :P - you get the idea

GTE

Two sides to the story for me if you look at it as starting from day one after secondary school.
I am sorry Paul for not addressing your questions directly however this has been building inside me since I have started my Uni course and if any prospective students read this I want to do them a service, as someone who would love to get into teaching.

To start with by, "education" I mean what we learn at the end of the day, be it through academic institutions or by apprenticeship style arrangements. I am getting my education through academic institutions for context of what I have to say.

1) Going the "tea boy to studio engineer" road is great for experience. This is the main pro for it that I read and hear about. Though as it is so practical I think you could find it hard to learn the theory behind what is going on properly. I feel that the theory is essential for you to know in your mind what is going on and why. I have never had a situation where learning the theory behind something has not made my practical attempts better. You need to ask yourself, what are you actually learning that is so special here?

2) Going the academic university degree route you are taught the theory so you know how things work and what to do "by the book" and the intention is you are being taught by people who do have teaching qualities and who know about the subject matter so well that they can deliver that to students. The thing is you generally do not get a good enough practical experience in universities. So, what are you learning that is so special here?

These are the two extremes of education from the way I see it.

Neither is good from an education point of view as they both leave out important aspects. Add to that, I dont personally believe that studios who hire interns are actually run by good teachers, at least not across the board. On a similar note, no course on the island that I know has the correct mix of both.

Now, the interesting part. I do believe that courses in Ireland deliver the practical teachings needed to get you out into the world of work. I have personally done both University and further education courses and I must say the right FE course can give you a huge base in practical things. While possibly not being theoretical enough for you to have the full education I think we need it by no means ignores the theory. This is, IMO, down to funding and staff of a FE college and physically being able to provide what is needed but the University I am in has no excuse to be so hopeless with practical things. A broken C414 is nothing to them, annoyingly. Plus I have a problem academics teaching you as, similar to the tea boy thing, they are not automatically good teachers. I have been livid about this in my current course.

So, with courses in Ireland only ever being either
A) Good at one thing
Good at the other
C) Horrible

then you need to mix and match like I have.

This problem in our system means that coming from the route that the Mr. Brewer I can imagine that he has a wealth of practical experience so a good theory course would suit him well however since "most" people who come into courses have not an idea of how to do anything, ie. secondary students (:p), we have a problem as the mix is not there at the moment though we are getting closer to the right mix in certain places.

Another aspect is that if a course has 30 places in it you are rarely going to get 30 people who will end up being good enough to be worthy a place in the world of work. Its silly to think, as so many idiots I have come across seem to think, there is a job for every course space in the country. The market is getting over saturated with students and this means only the good with do well.

I like to believe that when I did the course that was great in practical and less good in theory I could sit myself down and learn that myself as the course was for me, so well run it was fantastically motivational and this was because, critically, you had the fantastic quality TEACHERS!!!

I have fallen down in my estimation recently in Uni as the course as sucked so much motivation from me I found it hard to keep my practical things. To be honest the university does not give you opportunities to do this in a world where, well, how easy is it to get good practical experience and work it around Uni? I have even struggled to keep at the theory as they can not teach for their lives!

There are a lot of things going on like quality of the teachers, the course and the student.
I hope some people find this beneficial as although this is mainly a rant so I let off steam I believe the education you can get from educational institutions is what you need to get a good start in the world of work when done correctly. The mind set of people I talk to seems to be the tea boy route means you get a job in the industry. I think this is wrong. Same goes for getting a degree but there are loads of third level places compared to studio jobs.

We are in a modern enough age that the days of climbing the educational ladder PURELY from studio tea boys is long and deservedly dead. To go back to the question of what is so special about what is being learned in each situation. The special thing both can be taught properly in a college or university, but only if it is done correctly.

Sadly, in Ireland, down to money I believe, our system has not caught up to do this. Hell, even with money the system next door to us does not work so there is still a debate to have.

I can not give nor do I have all the answers but I like to think my idea of getting your education through a college or university is all you need to get yourself to the world of work, and, if you are a good student you will make that extra effort.

If anyone has any questions do ask as I did not spend enough time on this to put a really good structure to it, my battery is dying. I would rather not explicitly say where I study or where I have studied as I do not want to seem like I am working for them Having said that I would have mentioned this is passing at some point.

EDIT:
Ok, I ended up naming the places but my point is I didnt do it this post

Anyway, yeah!

GTE

Right, to be helpful to the OP.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What are the opinions of those with degrees, or who are studying for same, to the following questions ...

What benefit has/will a degree be to you?
The degree will give me the opportunity to build a theoretical foundation along side the practical foundation that I have built in a previous course. This will give me what I need to jump in the deep end in the world of work. If I am good enough Ill hopefully do well, if not, Ill keep at it.
I would also love to teach as it has always been something I liked doing, whether it be maths or sound work so the degree is needed there.

Knowing what you know, would you do it again?
Yes, but I would give the theory course a rethink. Remember, I went the diploma/degree route rather then a degree straight from secondary school.

Why did you choose to do one in the first place?
The FE course was from reputation, a well deserved reputation. The best years of my life in many aspects. A fantastic education from there.

The degree course was also reputation, sadly, from having done such a good course I can realise how bad it is in some aspects. The reason I don't mind so much to leave and find another course (if I had the money to) is that I already have the practical background, but I feel sorry for the students who went there straight from secondary

How 'easy' did you find the work ?
FE course: Difficult. You are worked hard. Very rewarding.

Degree: Difficult. Theory should not be easy. Teaching quality leaves a lot to be desired so possibly this makes it more difficult for me.

How many hours, on average, did you spend per week on course work ?
FE course was 7 days a week as year 2 of 2 got going. First year was maybe 14 to 20 hours a week for classes? I can not remember. Assignment work load brought this up.

Degree course: Classes are 7 hours and outside of this is just reading. Very few practical assignments which actually take time.
Ta!

If you're happy with your Degree where did you do it and in what?
Higher National Diploma in Music Production in BCFE and BSc in Music Technology in Queens Uni Belfast

madtheory

Paul, someone with your depth of experience should look at either electronics, or music. I'd hazard a guess that you'd enjoy electronics more. How's your maths? You might need to do a maths course prior. I can see you becoming Ireland's first boutique audio designer.

Neurojazz

madtheory wrote: »

Paul, someone with your depth of experience should look at either electronics, or music. I'd hazard a guess that you'd enjoy electronics more. How's your maths? You might need to do a maths course prior. I can see you becoming Ireland's first boutique audio designer.

Free maths! - http://www.khanacademy.org/

i57dwun4yb1pt8

you should go for it Paul

i did a diploma in physics starting age 27 - surrounded by 18 and 19 year olds - twas later turned into an ordinary degree .

twas mad , but you are more focussed when you are older.
first 6 months will be daunting , but stick it out .

youll love it in the end .

just do something you know you are interested in .

if its music or music production youll have a great advantage

also in some electronics - but you do need heavy duty maths for electronics degree - some of it is way out there.

but all great for the mind , it youth-en your brain by ten years or more.

dont put it off - go and do it.

studiorat

After 20 years working in recording studios, evening owning one. I decided to go back and to a Masters in Music technology.

I'm now about to pick up my MSc. First thing I learnt was that there was a lot more to music technology than recording studios and PA equipment.

My thesis was on computer programming something I'd never done properly before but totally enjoyed it, now I can hack in Java and C++.

Since, I've started working in a a big college and have been offered a job in another, after 20 years freelancing, working for the man is a real break.

I'm still recording and mixing but now I don't have to record every crap artist who knocks on my door! I'm working with new and exciting musical projects all the time and the course certainly gave me a chance to step back and re-access my approach to my work. I've definitely improved my skills in the studio as well as learning new ones.

Time-wise I needed 4 days a week, three of them working from nine in the morning till nine at night every week for the first two semesters. Christmas and Exam time I needed about 3 weeks solid on top of that to get my projects in. The thesis took me about 3 months of about 16 hours a week and a week solid to put it together, my thesis is crap BTW!

I'd say go for it, it broadens the horizons for sure.

As for doing it again; I had a ball and would consider a PhD if I could figure out a topic to research.

krd

studiorat wrote: »

As for doing it again; I had a ball and would consider a PhD if I could figure out a topic to research.

The cowbell.

studiorat

krd wrote: »

The cowbell.

A virtual one maybe...

Neurojazz

studiorat wrote: »

A virtual one maybe...

With the horrors of genetic engineering we could be looking at 'Sheepbell' - you know... the wool coating to even out and damp those spiky frequencies.

flyswatter

What do you want to get from this kind of degree?

Sounds like you've put in a lot of hard work to get where you are now, just wondering why a degree would be beneficial to you?

I study in DKIT but I'll hopefully be leaving to study music in Dublin soon.

I'm friends with a lot of the music students and the clever ones are wising up in what area they want to go into.

A lot of talent there but people have to realise where to go if they want a career in music now. Some are networking and making lots of industry contacts, starting labels, some want to teach, some are good enough to make it as performing musicians, some will end up in jobs outside of music.

I think in this area, it's hard work and graft and it sounds like you've got there already.

studiorat

Neurojazz wrote: »

With the horrors of genetic engineering we could be looking at 'Sheepbell' - you know... the wool coating to even out and damp those spiky frequencies.

Was considering the effect of temperature on the cowbell.

Would it sound different if it was Friesian!!!

/* gets coat*/

PaulBrewer

/* gets goat */

Companero

Courses are little more than a money-generating racket. As anyone who does any sort of music sound work knows, the technical side of this stuff that is relevant to making music could be explained in a moderately sized booklet in roughly a week.

Most of what sound engineers know comes from years and years of recording mixing and making music, leaving them with the ability to know when something is sounding as good as they think it does, when too much is too much, and what little tips and tricks and mics and little bits of equipment get the sound they like etc. This is not something that can be taught. It is literally learned on the fly over years.

Its a little like sex that way: I mean its no harm to pick up a copy of the Lover's Guide and teach yourself a few tips and tricks and give yourself a basic anatomy lesson, but it's not gonna turn you into Barry White.

Educational institutions tend to privelege the type of information that can be graded and made into textbooks and examinations and so on. In sound, as in sex, that stuff is just the beginning, and the years and years of hard *ahem* grind is where it's really at.

Robin Ball

studiorat wrote: »

After 20 years working in recording studios, evening owning one. I decided to go back and to a Masters in Music technology.

I'm now about to pick up my MSc. First thing I learnt was that there was a lot more to music technology than recording studios and PA equipment.

My thesis was on computer programming something I'd never done properly before but totally enjoyed it, now I can hack in Java and C++.

Since, I've started working in a a big college and have been offered a job in another, after 20 years freelancing, working for the man is a real break.

I'm still recording and mixing but now I don't have to record every crap artist who knocks on my door! I'm working with new and exciting musical projects all the time and the course certainly gave me a chance to step back and re-access my approach to my work. I've definitely improved my skills in the studio as well as learning new ones.

Time-wise I needed 4 days a week, three of them working from nine in the morning till nine at night every week for the first two semesters. Christmas and Exam time I needed about 3 weeks solid on top of that to get my projects in. The thesis took me about 3 months of about 16 hours a week and a week solid to put it together, my thesis is crap BTW!

I'd say go for it, it broadens the horizons for sure.

As for doing it again; I had a ball and would consider a PhD if I could figure out a topic to research.

Hey Rat, where did you do the masters?

Robin Ball

Hey Paul,

I think that you have to asses what your goals are in the Audio Industry are before you step into Education. If you are going to be a Studio/Mix Engineer you could do a lot better going investing your time and money in learning from people that are better than you. I don't know your work personally but I do know you have a good reputation in the country.

If you decide that your goal can only be achieved with in the education framework then I'd very much encourage that you find a school that has great teachers that are passionate about what they teach. A poor teacher can render the course useless!

Whatever you decide I wish you the best....

madtheory

Companero wrote: »

Courses are little more than a money-generating racket. As anyone who does any sort of music sound work knows, the technical side of this stuff that is relevant to making music could be explained in a moderately sized booklet in roughly a week.

What you don't realise is that Mr. Brewer has been there, done that, and wishes to expand.

And a booklet? In a week? Seriously? Clearly you've done some dodgy course...

You're being very general in your criticism of courses- what you say might apply to a small number of private operations, but not accredited courses in colleges, universities and ITs.