HSE's nursing homes charging €2,139 a week

Idbatterim

just read the below and it was mentioned on rte news last night! If this is the case, why dont we just privatise all nursing home care?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hses-nursing-homes-charging-euro2139-a-week-2652826.html

later12

If you are going to give one figure, you may as well clarify it

The average weekly cost of a public nursing-home bed is €1,245.

That average cost includes a contribution from the patient.

The HSE said the average weekly support under Fair Deal scheme per resident was €675 a week

So the state gives, on average €675 per patient. Obviously in some cases it is a lot higher, and in some cases it is a lot less, based on the patient's income.

OP I'm not particularly convinced that your solution, at face value, would change anything. Would the state be able to lower its average support so substantially as to make a real difference? I'm not convinced.

Surely the best solution is not privatisation but a reduction in the labour costs to the health service overall. This might include, horror of horrors, pay cuts for front line staff (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, etc)

beeno67

later10 wrote: »

If you are going to give one figure, you may as well clarify it

That average cost includes a contribution from the patient.



So the state gives, on average €675 per patient. Obviously in some cases it is a lot higher, and in some cases it is a lot less, based on the patient's income.

OP I'm not particularly convinced that your solution, at face value, would change anything. Would the state be able to lower its average support so substantially as to make a real difference? I'm not convinced.

Surely the best solution is not privatisation but a reduction in the labour costs to the health service overall. This might include, horror of horrors, pay cuts for front line staff (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, etc)

I think you are missing the point. A public nursing home bed costs an average of €1245 while a private bed costs €875. These are the fees that the government offers support. ie this is the actual cost. So the actual cost of the public bed is substantially higher than the private. The problem is the article does not say if the average public bed is directly comparable to the private one. You would have to assume it is not but it is certainlyt something worth looking at.

WalterMitty

beeno67 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. A public nursing home bed costs an average of €1245 while a private bed costs €875. These are the fees that the government offers support. ie this is the actual cost. So the actual cost of the public bed is substantially higher than the private. The problem is the article does not say if the average public bed is directly comparable to the private one. You would have to assume it is not but it is certainlyt something worth looking at.

Public sector charges much more to provide similar service shocker. Ah sure its only tax money that is badly needed to provide for most vulnerable in society and for provision of services for all citizens. :rolleyes: If you didnt already know the public service is really the ~"self service" where public servants pay/pensions/conditions are the overriding concern and service provison to vulnerable in society coming a distant second.

later12

beeno67 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. A public nursing home bed costs an average of €1245 while a private bed costs €875. These are the fees that the government offers support. ie this is the actual cost. So the actual cost of the public bed is substantially higher than the private.

Yes, that's very apparent, but I still don't particularly see that abandoning the industry altogether is any more beneficial than meeting labour costs head on and bringing down costs in that way, which at least might have the chance to act as a ceiling on nursing home costs more generally. There is alos the issue of safeguarding patients who might not easily be refacilitiated in the private sector due to cost concerns relating to their care.

beeno67

later10 wrote: »

Yes, that's very apparent, but I still don't particularly see that abandoning the industry altogether is any more beneficial than meeting labour costs head on and bringing down costs in that way, which at least might have the chance to act as a ceiling on nursing home costs more generally. There is alos the issue of safeguarding patients who might not easily be refacilitiated in the private sector due to cost concerns relating to their care.

If the nursing homes are directly comparable why are you assuming the difference is wages? Maybe overall wages are higher in Public system but wages for say nurses will be pretty similar. It is how you use staff, use of nurses and nursing assistants as well as such issues as doing deals with local suppliers etc.

You also refer to refacilitating patients in the private sector and "abandoning the industry altogether". The patients would not have to be moved anywhere the facility would be moved from public to private ownership. That was the OPs point.

later12

beeno67 wrote: »

If the nursing homes are directly comparable why are you assuming the difference is wages? Maybe overall wages are higher in Public system but wages for say nurses will be pretty similar. It is how you use staff, use of nurses and nursing assistants as well as such issues as doing deals with local suppliers etc.

I mentioned a pay cut, but I didn't say the difference was wages alone.

I said labour costs, which typically would form the bulk of any cost differential between public and private institutions. This includes the efficiency of HR policy. I presume energy, food and maintenance inputs to be largely similar.

You also refer to refacilitating patients in the private sector and "abandoning the industry altogether". The patients would not have to be moved anywhere the facility would be moved from public to private ownership. That was the OPs point.

Again you seem to be misunderstanding.

I'm not talking about physically moving, I'm talking about refacilitating the patients under a private banner. It may be that for some private companies, cherrypicking of patient types, and difficulties, may become a problem. Such patients would still have to be facilitated somewhere.

dan_d

Hmm. I had a relative who spent a year or more in a private nursing home - because there were no public beds available at all and she simply couldn't stay on her own anymore.

Without going into too much detail, my family went to a lot of trouble to try and get funding - even a grant. As I understand it, she was entitled to it, but it just wasn't forthcoming.

She was told by the HSE "Sell your house, and when you've run through all the money from that, come back to us".

For an absolutely callous answer, there's nothing to beat that. This woman was in her late 80s, never married, and did not want to go into a nursing home.She was unwell and spent a good few weeks in hospital and couldn't go home afterwards. Yet she wanted to go home, believed she would eventually. The suggestion that she sell her flat was extremely traumatising to her. She was upset enough over not being able to go home, without that. The basic price of the nursing home was 750eur a week - plus extra for food, to have a newspaper delivered, to have a telephone and to have a TV. The bit of savings she had was run through in a few weeks paying for it, and eventually another family member paid the fees, while telling her that they were still using her savings. They couldn't tell her the cost of where she was.

The whole system is so wrong on so many levels. Nobody even tries. That answer regarding the house was given after contact with Mary Harney herself. It's not right to be in the final years of your life and be told that you have to sell your home in order to pay for health care, in a system that you have funded with taxes your entire life.

As with everything from the HSE, the whole entire system needs to be pulled apart and put back together again, with reform of consultant's and medical staff salaries need to be top of the list.

RichardAnd

dan_d wrote: »

She was told by the HSE "Sell your house, and when you've run through all the money from that, come back to us".

I spend, collectively, about 3 years in the public service and not once did I ever hear anyone speak to a member of the public like that. I seriously doubt that was the language used by the HSE staff in this case.