Dart Fines's

superelliptic

First off, sorry for posting this if it has already been covered in another thread!

I'd like to describe a situation my housemate came up against last week, and get your opinions.

Last week my housemate heads into town using the Dart. There was no Irish Rail (IR) employee in the ticket booth, and the machine ate his money, without providing a ticket. So he heads down to catch the train figuring that he would just pay at the destination, as both he (and I) have had to do several times under exactly the same circumstances. So he gets into Pearse, and walks over to the IR employees on the gate and tries to hand them the fare. Heres where things go awry. Instead of taking the money and issuing a ticket, as the lads on the gate normally do in such situations, there was a woman from IR with 2 security guards there handing out €100 fines. My housemate described what had happened, but she flatly refused to believe it. He pressed further, and she said he could appeal it. So he did, and explained the situation in the appeals letter- and yesterday found that it has been denied.

Heres my problem with the situation:

1. IF it is IR's policy to refuse entry to the Dart without a ticket, then why do so many IR employees accept payment at the destination when the machines are out of order? (I saw them accepting payment's the following day at Connolly!!! :mad:) How can the company get away with this double standard of enforcement?

2.How can my housemate be accused of trying to skip out on a fare when he was the one who approched the IR employees on the gate, and offered to pay?

3. Is there anyone to refer this matter to outside of IR, because the appeals process is handled by themselves internally?

He was also made redundant from his job and is on the dole now, so €100 is not small change to him. I'd also like to point out that this is not an isolated incident - I see dozens people paying at the destination on a weekly basis as I use the dart 5 days a week.

NuMarvel

Have a read of this thread.

In that case the OP boarded a train with no ticket as there was no-one in the ticket office and was fined on-board for not having a ticket. The end result was that the OP successfully appealed the fine, referring to the bye laws (in summary, the relevant part of the bye laws state that you can board a train without a ticket if there's no one in the booking office and if you pay ASAP at your destination).

There's a bit of to and fro in that thread about whether or not a ticket vending machine is or isn't part of the booking office, but the upshot is that the OP got the fine overturned.

I'm not too sure if someone can re-appeal to Irish Rail, but it might not be any harm for your housemate to fire off one more letter, stating that he's looked at the bye laws and they appear to allow him to board a train if the booking office is unmanned and he pays at his destination (Section 4 if you want to get precise). Give exact times as to when he boarded the train to see if they can verify if the office was or wasn't unattended.

superelliptic

NuMarvel wrote: »

Have a read of this thread.

In that case the OP boarded a train with no ticket as there was no-one in the ticket office and was fined on-board for not having a ticket. The end result was that the OP successfully appealed the fine, referring to the bye laws (in summary, the relevant part of the bye laws state that you can board a train without a ticket if there's no one in the booking office and if you pay ASAP at your destination).

There's a bit of to and fro in that thread about whether or not a ticket vending machine is or isn't part of the booking office, but the upshot is that the OP got the fine overturned.

I'm not too sure if someone can re-appeal to Irish Rail, but it might not be any harm for your housemate to fire off one more letter, stating that he's looked at the bye laws and they appear to allow him to board a train if the booking office is unmanned and he pays at his destination (Section 4 if you want to get precise). Give exact times as to when he boarded the train to see if they can verify if the office was or wasn't unattended.

Thanks for that NuMarvel, thats a great help, I'll pass it along.

It still raises the question though, of why were they fining members of the public (and rejecting their appeals!) when IR's own bye-laws would exempt them from the fines in the first place?

Surely they are not just out to grab peoples money?

</sarcasm> :rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

superelliptic wrote: »

Thanks for that NuMarvel, thats a great help, I'll pass it along.

It still raises the question though, of why were they fining members of the public (and rejecting their appeals!) when IR's own bye-laws would exempt them from the fines in the first place?

Surely they are not just out to grab peoples money?

</sarcasm> :rolleyes:

What mitigating factors is there in this case; eg what time of the day, what station did he travel from and what day/date was it? It would be unlikely that a station was unmanned at 8AM on a weekday morning or a station like Bray was unmanned at all. Also, if the ticket machine was broken there may have been others in the same boat from that station on that day so they'd see a pattern forming quickly enough.

As a by word, a fine wasn't issued here but a standard ticket. You can take it through to the court case if your friend feels he was still wronged but be warned, the conviction rate is very high and the court fines can be rather high; it's something to bear in mind. That thread alone is not an ideal one to base any sort appeal on without knowing fully what was said and the full case; perhaps PM the OP but nethertheless thread carefully here.

superelliptic

Absolutely, I see your point, and yeah, I dont think he'd be willing to have his day in court over this It was around 10:30AM (monday or tuesday 2 weeks ago, so the 2nd or 3rd of May), so it was just outside of peak time. He wasnt the only one fined. 1 person was recieving a fine when he arrived at the gate in pearse, and 3 more people jumped in line behind him while he was getting fined (dont know where these people had boarded though).

As I said, its the seemingly arbitraty nature of it that gets me. You can pay at the destination, most of the time, if you're stuck, and the staff dont bat an eyelid, but then sometimes you will be hit with a fine? I agree 100% that they have to clamp down on fare dodgers, but the manner in which they apply the rules doesnt seem right to me.

Drimnagh Road

The best piece of advice I can give to anybody arriving at Connolly, Tara St. or Pearse without a ticket for a legite reason and who is willing to buy a ticket from their destination but is then met with Gastepo attitude as the OP has faced is to say you are coming from Broombridge, which is unstaffed all the time.

Let it be known that I'm merely saying that where a person jumps on a train maybe because they are running late and do not have time to queue at the ticket office but then plans on paying at the destination, it is only fair the IE acknowledge that honest customer and issue them a ticket for the journey they have just completed, and not a fine. If they are not going to treat you as an honest customer, then play smart ass.

A man in a suit who has forgotten his season ticket one day is probably more likely to be fined than a smoking career fare dodger in track suit who will just be told by the STD lads on board to get off at the next stop.

foggy_lad

superelliptic wrote: »

Thanks for that NuMarvel, thats a great help, I'll pass it along.

It still raises the question though, of why were they fining members of the public (and rejecting their appeals!) when IR's own bye-laws would exempt them from the fines in the first place?

Surely they are not just out to grab peoples money?

</sarcasm> :rolleyes:

Yes they are out to grab people's money and go specifically for people who are in the same situation as your friend instead of the many scumbags who get to travel unhindered.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What mitigating factors is there in this case; eg what time of the day, what station did he travel from and what day/date was it? It would be unlikely that a station was unmanned at 8AM on a weekday morning or a station like Bray was unmanned at all. Also, if the ticket machine was broken there may have been others in the same boat from that station on that day so they'd see a pattern forming quickly enough.

As a by word, a fine wasn't issued here but a standard ticket. You can take it through to the court case if your friend feels he was still wronged but be warned, the conviction rate is very high and the court fines can be rather high; it's something to bear in mind. That thread alone is not an ideal one to base any sort appeal on without knowing fully what was said and the full case; perhaps PM the OP but nethertheless thread carefully here.

you seem to know an awful lot about Irish rail, care to enlighten others as to your involvement by posting in the conflict of interest thread?


Op if the Ticket/booking office was unmanned there is no legal requirement to use the vending machines but you must buy a ticket at your destination.

Bluetonic

foggy_lad wrote: »

you seem to know an awful lot about Irish rail, care to enlighten others as to your involvement by posting in the conflict of interest thread?

These sort of posts are annoying and unhelpful.