Advice on bathroom renovation

Some_randomer

Ok I'm back again with another bathroom issue. I have an upstairs bathroom that's fully tiled. It's about 170 cm by 180 cm with a bath and shower over bath, so size wise it's the width of the bath.

I have an ongoing problem with tiles coming off around the bath. My cousin tiled it about 5 years ago and even though he used a tanking system there's still moisture coming from somewhere causing the row of tiles attached to the bath to come off. The bathroom is in the top left corner of the house and the external walls are cavity block walls. These weren't insulated before the bathroom was tiled 5 years ago, so I'm thinking the combination of cold wall and steam from the shower is causing a lot of moisture and it's somehow getting through the tiles / grout. The adhesive on the wall underneath the first row of tiles on the bath was wet when I took the tiles off, however the wall above this is dry.

Anyway I got fed up with it so I've decided to rip the whole lot out including all the tiles and the bath and go with a wet room - if possible. One tiler I spoke to said after removing the bath leave the shower where it is and just have a few rows of tiles around it and paint the rest of the walls with waterproof paint. I'm fed up with tiles so I might do this. After talking to a couple of other people they said the best way to approach it is to insulate the external walls then paint and tile. So some questions if y'all would be so kind:

- What's the best way to insulate the walls?

* Build a stud wall and insulate with either Tri super 10 or 25mm Kingspan condensed, then plasterboard or marine ply and paint.
* Insulate with 2 inch foam backed plasterboard glued directly onto outer wall then skim and paint.

- Is making a wet room in an upstairs bathroom difficult or problematic? One person said to remove existing tiles and floorboards, then lay marine ply with a slight slope towards the drain then tile on top of this. Is this correct? Do I need a tanking system for the floor?

- Am I missing anything or is there another way to go about this?

(Some pics attached as it was and after taking off tiles from main external wall)

Paul.C

* Insulate with 2 inch foam backed plasterboard glued directly onto outer wall then skim and paint.
Thats the best way to do it all right, although if it were me, Id tile all the walls and floor for a better finish. Once that wall has been insulated this way you wont have anymore problems with the tiles. But if you choose paint and curtain or screen you should be grand.

As for the floor, I did a nixer like this a few years ago and all I did was tapered lenghts of timber towards the drain and fixed marine ply on top. I finished with tiles straight on top.

The only thing you have to consider is the door opening into the bathroom may need trimming or a step up into the bathroom may result.

The way we got around all that was a shower curtain and trenched tiles circling the lot. All depends on the area and what you want to do really.

Some_randomer

Thanks Paul. I'm veering towards the plasterboard for the walls as well because I know a tiler that can do plasterboarding but I'd have to get a carpenter for the studding. I've really had it with tiles nothing but grief. Places I've lived in the past and currently I've always had trouble...they come away from walls, seals leak around baths, grout gets discoloured and mouldy...the list goes on.

A Polish person I spoke to said Irish people are obsessed with tiles and that in Poland most people have 1 or 2 rows of tiles around a bath or shower then paint the rest. That's why I'm taking this approach, keeping cursed tiles to a bare minimum!

Ok rant over

Paul.C

Em ye that sounds fine. What studing will you need? Make sure and get kingspan backed plasterboard. Basicly its a sheet of kingspan glued to a sheet of plasterboard. This is then drilled and fixed with a box of mushroom fittings. No studing needed, unless your talking about the redoing interior walls. As for the floor yes I would a chippy in to do that, mad slope not needed. 1 inch drop for every 20 inch across should be fine.

On another note, you say tiles have always been a hindrance for you. Well I would consider getting a different tiler as a good one will take these issues into account before the bring a single tool onsite.

best of luck

Some_randomer

If I was going to stud and insulate the walls i.e. the first option then I'd probably have to go with 4 x 2 or something like that. I'm thinking the foam backed plasterboard as you say so no need for studding with this, but I think it can be glued to the wall as opposed to the mushroom fittings.

The tile issues I've had, one was in a place I moved into where the work had already been done. The problem I'm having now the tiler was my cousin and I know he's a good tiler. He worked on hotels and swimming pools and loads of houses for years. He used a tanking system behind the bath and he doesn't know what's causing the tiles to come off. So this issue is more of a condensation / steam / lack of insulation problem if I were to hazard a guess.

Paul.C

3x2 would be fine for studding, but you can use 4x2 if ye like. Perhaps the mushroom fittings would be a better idea as the glue holding the tiles on lost its integrity after a while so the same may well happen to the glue holding on the kingspan. Im not familiar with this method so I may be wrong.

AckwelFoley

The reason those tiles came off i suspect is that perhaps the wrong adhesive was used. If it comes in a bucket ready mixed its dirt - i dont care what brand is on it - its pure ****, fine for a kitchen splash back but i would never use it and i suspect thats what your tiler used, i also suspect he didnt use enough adhesive.

My advice to you - think long and hard about what you want to do. What you have now is tricky at the best of times due to the nature of construction of modern houses, ie timber joists and timber walls causing movement due to shrinkage. Your solution is a wet room which is even more difficult to get done correctly, if its not done correctly the solutions are more drastic and more hassle.

Get someone to do this that has experience and plenty of it using the tanking system, i insist on it, but its only as good as the person applying it.

Tiles dont just come off walls - insist on bagged wall tile adhesive - if he comes to you with a bucket of readymixed adhesive - run him

EDIT: On looking at the 3rd photo i sont see much of a tanking system there, it looks more like a single skin paint on job. A proper tanking system is prime - apply sealant - apply mesh - apply sealant - apply more lesh in critical areas - more sealant. It goes 3/4 way up the wall, not just at the bath edge
The one i see in your photos looks literally paper thin

Joey the lips

snyper wrote: »

The reason those tiles came off i suspect is that perhaps the wrong adhesive was used. If it comes in a bucket ready mixed its dirt - i dont care what brand is on it - its pure ****, fine for a kitchen splash back but i would never use it and i suspect thats what your tiler used, i also suspect he didnt use enough adhesive.

My advice to you - think long and hard about what you want to do. What you have now is tricky at the best of times due to the nature of construction of modern houses, ie timber joists and timber walls causing movement due to shrinkage. Your solution is a wet room which is even more difficult to get done correctly, if its not done correctly the solutions are more drastic and more hassle.

Get someone to do this that has experience and plenty of it using the tanking system, i insist on it, but its only as good as the person applying it.

Tiles dont just come off walls - insist on bagged wall tile adhesive - if he comes to you with a bucket of readymixed adhesive - run him

EDIT: On looking at the 3rd photo i sont see much of a tanking system there, it looks more like a single skin paint on job. A proper tanking system is prime - apply sealant - apply mesh - apply sealant - apply more lesh in critical areas - more sealant. It goes 3/4 way up the wall, not just at the bath edge
The one i see in your photos looks literally paper thin

I agree with this 100% i just did not know how to say it so simple. I never rec wet rooms upstairs unless its in a disabled situation then i install a decking system. This is the system where esentially a shower tray is buried under the tiles. The lads that supply them know what i am talking about. They are mainly used in areas where there is movement like wooden floors.

IMO tanking systems dont fail and the moisture you are experiencing is most likely because bucket adhesive was used.

Juwwi

"The reason those tiles came off i suspect is that perhaps the wrong adhesive was used. If it comes in a bucket ready mixed its dirt - i dont care what brand is on it - its pure ****, fine for a kitchen splash back but i would never use it"







I recently went into a builders providers to but evo-stik OPF tile adhesive in the bags for my bathroom walls,l read somewhere that this is one of the best adhesives.

When l went to buy it the guy behind the counter talked me out of getting it and l ended up buying buckets on his recomendation.

lm glad now l went back the next day and changed it for the opf after reading your post.

Some_randomer

snyper wrote: »

My advice to you - think long and hard about what you want to do.

Thanks snyper, don't worry I am proceeding with caution. So far I have ordered the foam backed plasterboard for the external walls and normal stuff for the internal ones. I'm going to hack off all the tiles, take out the bath, and plaster all the walls. After this I'll decide about the wet room and what combination of paint and tiles to use.

snyper wrote: »

EDIT: On looking at the 3rd photo i sont see much of a tanking system there, it looks more like a single skin paint on job.

Ya it was a strip of plastic that was a few inches high so from what you're saying it wasn't a full tanking system. The adhesive on the strip was wet when I took off the tiles, but the walls behind it were dry.

Paul.C

that sounds like the grout was letting moisture through, again im no tiler but thats what it sounds like to me

zuroph

For options, you know you could put a low level tray in underneath a wetroom screen, and leave yourself open to less problems dealing with the moisture? You can even get them in the 1700x750mm length to fit a bath replace job...

Some_randomer

zuroph wrote: »

For options, you know you could put a low level tray in underneath a wetroom screen, and leave yourself open to less problems dealing with the moisture? You can even get them in the 1700x750mm length to fit a bath replace job...

Sounds interesting as I am doing a bath replace job. Do you have any more info or links to some websites?

zuroph

Some_randomer wrote: »

Sounds interesting as I am doing a bath replace job. Do you have any more info or links to some websites?

this is the one I know of, but im sure you can get the trays from others too.
http://www.flairshowers.com/tray2.php

I'd go with the 1700 tray to go wall to wall, then put a left hand wetroom panel on it, or else get a 1700 wide double sliding door and seal the area up wall to wall.

http://www.flairshowers.com/namara_doubledoor.php

Some_randomer

Joey the lips wrote: »

This is the system where esentially a shower tray is buried under the tiles. The lads that supply them know what i am talking about. They are mainly used in areas where there is movement like wooden floors.

Joey where do you get those systems and are they expensive? I'm starting to have second thoughts about making a wet room now based on people's feedback, seeing as it's upstairs and it's a wooden floor. The general consensus seems to be unless it's done perfectly it could be problematic.

I'm thinking now that a low profile shower tray and enclosure might be better. I've attached a couple more pics - I've now taken the tiles off the side of the bath and the exterior walls. One pic shows the waste pipe under the bath. Some more questions:

- Do I need to seal the external walls with anything before I put on the plasterboard?

- If I go with a low profile shower tray will I need to take up the floorboards, do I put it directly on the floorboards, or do I lay it on a sheet of marine ply?

- How do I disconnect the pipes from the bath? Is there special fittings I can get to seal the pipes...I presume I would turn off the water in the attic first?

- If I wanted to move the sink to the other wall where the lower (non tap) end of the bath currently is, would this be a big job? How would I go about routing the pipe work?


Tia

Joey the lips

Joey where do you get those systems and are they expensive? I'm starting to have second thoughts about making a wet room now based on people's feedback, seeing as it's upstairs and it's a wooden floor. The general consensus seems to be unless it's done perfectly it could be problematic. i agree with the concenses. The system is available from RT Large if you phone them and give them your address they will give you a shop close to you with the catalogue. If you have trouble with that i will give you another contact.

I'm thinking now that a low profile shower tray and enclosure might be better. I've attached a couple more pics - I've now taken the tiles off the side of the bath and the exterior walls. One pic shows the waste pipe under the bath. Some more questions: A tray is always the best option imo however a little probeing will have to be done to see about dropping the waste where it goes into the wall. This might need more work than it seems

- Do I need to seal the external walls with anything before I put on the plasterboard? No. Not unless moisture is getting through them which i doubt it is

- If I go with a low profile shower tray will I need to take up the floorboards, do I put it directly on the floorboards, or do I lay it on a sheet of marine ply? You can use a sheet of marine ply and lay it on it. The marine ply needs to be screwed every 2 inches and i would bed the tray on flexi tile adhesive.

- How do I disconnect the pipes from the bath? Is there special fittings I can get to seal the pipes...I presume I would turn off the water in the attic first? With due respect if your asking this i feel this job is a bit out of your league in general however you can blank off the pipe with waste blanks.

- If I wanted to move the sink to the other wall where the lower (non tap) end of the bath currently is, would this be a big job? How would I go about routing the pipe work? Judging by the direction of the floor boards no this will not be a problem once a suitable fall can be created for the waste.

Some_randomer

Thanks Joey, I know feck all about plumbing so will probably leave that to someone who knows what they're doing

Some_randomer

Ok posting the end result for anyone that's interested. Job done finally, went with the wet room in the end. The lads that were doing it said even though it's upstairs it would be fine. Was a big job below is what had to be done:

- hack the tiles off the 4 walls and plaster off the 2 internal walls
- move sink and route pipes to other wall
- remove old rad and replace with towel rail
- insulate 2 external walls with foam backed plasterboard
- insulate 2 internal walls with normal plasterboard
- create new floor with ply
- seal floor and tiled areas of gable wall with rubber/gum stuff
- tile floor and parts of gable walls
- paint non tiled areas

Attached some pics of how it looks now.

Joey the lips

Lovely job. I am not usually a fan of half tiled bathrooms however this looks really well.

Some_randomer

Thanks Joey pretty happy with it alright. After totting it all up I'm wondering if I got value for money. To show the work that was involved I've attached pics of it all in progress. Pic 1 is the left corner where the wet room floor went in. Pic 2 is the same corner from further away. Pic 3 is the floor at the right hand wall where the old rad was and new heated towel rail is now. Pic 4 is the internal wall to the left of the door. Pic 5 is the right hand wall from further away.

All the materials were approx 1000 euro. I'd appreciate some opinions of roughly what the labour would have cost, given all the pics and the description of the work involved. No prizes except kudos for closest guess

Joey the lips

Some_randomer wrote: »

Thanks Joey pretty happy with it alright. After totting it all up I'm wondering if I got value for money. To show the work that was involved I've attached pics of it all in progress. Pic 1 is the left corner where the wet room floor went in. Pic 2 is the same corner from further away. Pic 3 is the floor at the right hand wall where the old rad was and new heated towel rail is now. Pic 4 is the internal wall to the left of the door. Pic 5 is the right hand wall from further away.

All the materials were approx 1000 euro. I'd appreciate some opinions of roughly what the labour would have cost, given all the pics and the description of the work involved. No prizes except kudos for closest guess

1600 for labour.

Some_randomer

Joey the lips wrote: »

1600 for labour.

Very close Joey was 1500. The reason I asked was that the guy originally quoted me 4 days and there was 2 of them, so that was 8 man days for labour. However it turned out to be 15 days. He said that things took longer in general and there was more work with the floor than they thought etc. 1500 may have been reasonable but it was a bit annoying that it turned out to be almost double the original quote.

iriray

As a general question. Does anybody in Republic of Ireland know how to waterproof the bathroom or any other "wet room"?

If you build a bathroom you have to have a waterproofing over the floor and wall material. On the top of the waterproofing layer (usually the material is "painted" or spread over the base material) you then lay the tiles.

How about the slope of the floor which makes the water flow towards the floor drain in a bathroom. How about heated bathroom floors? The places I've visited have none, although I've heard those are built in Ireland (but where they are and since when?)

Images (a quick Google image search) about the waterproofing
http://1stchoicewaterproofing.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/project_bathroom3.jpg
and
http://mediacache.homeimprovementpages.com.au/creative/articles/hip/1577/1577_620x290.jpg

Also the ventilation systems are non-existent in Irish houses or apartments. How about to look an example like http://www.cse.org.uk/advice/advice-and-support/mechanical-ventilation-with-heat-recovery.


There's also mold and other stuff related to humidity issues. Why people don't demand these kind modern accommodation essentials? Just for their health and also for comfortable living. Guess this is a one of many things in Ireland that is lagging behind modern Europe.

Any comments?