Heat Pumps

tishiewishie

Hi all,

My neighbour recently installed a Heat Pump as a heating system for their house. I actually never knew that such a thing existed until about a month ago, but she was telling me great stuff about it and it's supposed to save 70% of their heating costs to heat the house and water.

Does anyone know if this can be true?? That's alot of savings!!

Thanks

heinbloed

Check the previous posts about HPs. Ask your neighbour for evidence confirming the claim she makes.

The First Guru

yes its very possible, It lagely depends on the old system also but with the cost of oil being 8 - 10 cent and a heat pump delevering energy for 3 - 5 cent its very possible indeed.

tishiewishie

Thank you for your replies.

I have oil myself at the moment heating the house and yes it is very expensive and getting dearer the whole time and ive a baby on the way and can’t be sparing the oil as much as i am now.

I got my hands on a brochure from the crew who installed the heat pump for my neighbour, it's very impressive.
They also gave her references of houses and other buildings where they have supplied and installed their heat pumps with the savings that these places have made. It does sound good.

They have an office in Dungarvan I might call in and see what they have to say.

Condenser

tishiewishie wrote: »

Thank you for your replies.

I have oil myself at the moment heating the house and yes it is very expensive and getting dearer the whole time and ive a baby on the way and can’t be sparing the oil as much as i am now.

I got my hands on a brochure from the crew who installed the heat pump for my neighbour, it's very impressive.
They also gave her references of houses and other buildings where they have supplied and installed their heat pumps with the savings that these places have made. It does sound good.

They have an office in Dungarvan I might call in and see what they have to say.

If you're thinking of running rads off it I wouldn't go the route of a heat pump. You'll barely lower your bills if at all. The higher temp of the rads will reduce the COP to a level where it would be comparable to the price of oil per kw produced. However if you have underfloor its definitely the route to take. Will dramaticly reduce your bills if installed correctly.

Fallschirmjager

Condenser wrote: »

If you're thinking of running rads off it I wouldn't go the route of a heat pump. You'll barely lower your bills if at all. The higher temp of the rads will reduce the COP to a level where it would be comparable to the price of oil per kw produced. However if you have underfloor its definitely the route to take. Will dramaticly reduce your bills if installed correctly.

Sorry about the thread hijacking......

I was looking at this on the web today. I am sure glad i read your reply because a lot of the sites didn't really mention that the cost of rads is not much different. As our house is about 20 years old and I don't want to rip up floors for the underfloor part. Any halfway house so to speak?

Outkast_IRE

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

Sorry about the thread hijacking......

I was looking at this on the web today. I am sure glad i read your reply because a lot of the sites didn't really mention that the cost of rads is not much different. As our house is about 20 years old and I don't want to rip up floors for the underfloor part. Any halfway house so to speak?

Yes put your money into better insualting your home , reducing heat loss is the first step i would always look at .Its also probably the best for long terms savings and comfort.
If you think about it it makes perfect sense , reduced heat loss = reduction in length of time heating is running .

deepspeed

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Yes put your money into better insualting your home , reducing heat loss is the first step i would always look at .Its also probably the best for long terms savings and comfort.
If you think about it it makes perfect sense , reduced heat loss = reduction in length of time heating is running .

I'm in the same boat - old house needing new boiler, rads etc, and had been looking at air-heat pump or solar heat pump to replace boiler. All the figures quoted will tell you the fantastic COP and how heat pump will save you a fortune, but at outside air temperature of 7degrees C and up. And the solar during the summer.

To me it seems that when you need the heat most (Nov - March) the temp outside will be alot below 7degrees, therefore reducing the COP, as @Condenser said, to that of an Oil Boiler. Granted, oil prices are rising, but the cost of electricity will probably do the same at the times you need the heat the most.

So I think I'm just going to plough money into insulation and get an Oil Condensing boiler and efficient rads.

Condenser

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

Sorry about the thread hijacking......

I was looking at this on the web today. I am sure glad i read your reply because a lot of the sites didn't really mention that the cost of rads is not much different. As our house is about 20 years old and I don't want to rip up floors for the underfloor part. Any halfway house so to speak?

Only if you're willing to look at fan assisted rads. They can run at 35C which will keep your COP at a decent level. If you have to go 40C plus I wouldn't go heat pump. And you should always look at ground source before air source. The COP is more dependable/constant in any weather. Air to water will decrease too much in efficiency over the cold spells. But as was said, I'd put the money into insulation first.
Heat pumps are really for new builds with good insulation and low temp systems or retrofits onto ufh systems

The First Guru

Firstly please look at the price of oil. It is over 80 cent per litre!!!

We spend most of our heating season above zero.

When it is cold outside you burn more oil also.

When it is warm outside the oil boiler will use the same amount of oil due to the nozzle size. Therefor the heat pump is better for the majority of the heating season.

Lots of people saying heat pump has low COP, Please define low?????

Example oil costs 80 cent per litre:

10.55 Kwh Per Litre

80 / 10.55 = 7.6 cent per kwh

If the boiler is 90 % efficient then 7.6 / .9 (90% eff)

= 8.4 cent per Kwh delivered

Cost of electricity is 16 cent on day rate.

If the heat pump gave a cop of 2.5 the cost of a kwh of energy would be as follows:

16 / 2.5 = 6.4 cent


Summary

90% eff boiler and oil at 80 cent = 8.4 cent per kwh
Heat pump cop 2.5 16 cent electric= 6.4 cent

I think Ill have the low COP heat pump thanks and you can have your oil boiler with rising prices of oil. I believe I am saving money with this heat pump.

Heat pumps can heat radiators and it is dependant on the house.

Many heat pumps offer 65 - 70 - 80 degrees just like a boiler so of course it is an option.

In relation to COP any decent supplier will give you the COP at any temp but there are too many points to publish in a basic brochure so enquire if you want the information.

Remember the dearer oil gets the lower the COP you require to save money.

Hope this helps, Ill be on holidays soon with the money I saved on oil this year (Replaced a condensing boiler). Think ill be off to Greece for a week or so!!!!

jprboy

The First Guru wrote: »

Cost of electricity is 16 cent on day rate.

If the heat pump gave a cop of 2.5 the cost of a kwh of energy would be as follows:

16 / 2.5 = 6.4 cent

You could also have added that heat pumps can be run on night rate electricity which is half the day rate.
Most of our energy consumption for our heat pump is at night and it keeps the house pleasantly warm for most of the year.
It is only during particularly cold spells that we use any appreciable amount of electricity on day rate.

The First Guru

Thanks Jpr

This only enforces the case.

The fact we must accept is that over three years oil has doubled in price but we still say that heat pumps are dearer.

If everybody asks the question: "At what oil price will a heat pump make sense???"

I think we have passed the price already.

Anybody want to answer that question??????

Lets take a base COP of three for the comparison

heinbloed

The clouless asks:

If everybody asks the question: "At what oil price will a heat pump make sense???"

And I ask: at what electricity price the electricity usage from the grid makes no economical sense?

Since electricity prices where in the past limited by the gouverments, and still are, a free market for electricity might still come up.
And since coal and gas are the main fuels in powerplants one of the clueless should tell us what the free electricity price is when free coal and gas prices ten or twenty fold. As they did in the past.

See gas prices for the last 5 years:

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/ETCs/company-summary-chart.html?fourWayKey=GB00B15KY104JEUSDETCS

See coal prices for the last 5 years:

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary-chart.html?fourWayKey=GB0007190720GBGBXSSMM

The clueless might have lost their nerves? Faced with an unsubsidised market situation (no more subsidies for heat pumps in Ireland) they try to fool the idiots with subsidised electricity prices for their funny machines ......

A heating system's efficiency is calculated how ? COP ?
Little jokers they are....

heinbloed

The civilised energy users- when looking at the European regions- have banned heat pumps already.

See

http://www.solarthermalworld.org/node/1533

And they are getting more.

Heat pumps running on night-saver tarifs? Funny idea, not heating during the day, that's what we call saving !

Read the conditions of supply of Irish night-saver contracts. Read the small print. How guaranteed is this service?

The less base load power plants there are (the old, inefficient stinkers have a fuel-to-electricity COP of 0.3, but will be faced very soon with a CO2 tax) the less likely there will be 'cheap' electricity during night time.

tishiewishie

Well I've done abit of research since I lasted commented due to the comments I have received.
My neighbour has a Aw16 xcc heat pump installed, if that makes sence to anyone, and they are over the moon with the system so far.

I ended up ringing most of the references that came with the brochure and the people seem to be happy with the system and the amount of savings they're making. Most of them had radiators in their houses and even one fella I rang has the old cast iron radiators.

creedp

heinbloed wrote: »

The civilised energy users- when looking at the European regions- have banned heat pumps already

.


Just had a look at you link and was interested in the fact that the very civilised Swiss are very into their heat pumps. So much so that in 2009 83% of the 11,000 new residential builds was equipped with a heat pump and this is up from 32% 10 years previously.

heinbloed

Creedp wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinbloed
The civilised energy users- when looking at the European regions- have banned heat pumps already

.


Just had a look at you link and was interested in the fact that the very civilised Swiss are very into their heat pumps. So much so that in 2009 83% of the 11,000 new residential builds was equipped with a heat pump and this is up from 32% 10 years previously.

That's correct.
A couple of years ago it didn't matter how efficient the heating systems were.Any crap could have been installed legally. Esp. heat pumps were sponsored by the electricity companies, guaranteeing energy junkies for many generations. Some buildings which are designed for HP supply are hard to change, so these are junk structures.

But things have changed.

First Kyoto, then Fukushima.

Switzerland (the federal gouverment) is changing it's energy policy but 180 degrees.
See the latest about it here:

http://www.solarthermalworld.org/node/2920

refering to

http://www.solarthermalworld.org/files/Aktionsplan_Energiestrategie_2050_Switzerland.pdf?download

( in German only)

I try to translate: In "Massnahme Nr. 18" ORC technology will be sponsered, the HP but in reverse (!). The ORC is a real HEAT pump, not the fake 'cold pump' sold by installers in Ireland and elsewhere using the term "heat pump" to fool the idiots.

In Massnahme Nr. 21 a solar thermal coverage of thermal enegy for buildings above 30-50% is envisaged, a federal law ((Energy law no.9) still has to be changed for this.
And this will blow out most heat pumps.

In "Massnahme 24" all electric boilers and heaters will be phased out. This means a HP can not rely on an electric heating element for back up, nor can a household.

The methods on how to achieve the aims, the actual material choice, will still be up to the Kantons, the counties who have a strong political voice.
But once electric back-up heating is banned and a SOLAR min. thermal coverage of 30-50% is federal law, this choice will be small. Without HPs anyhow.

Times are changing, for some faster for others less so. Some never learn.

The First Guru

Hein Bloed

Lots of facts and a strange view.

Are you suggesting an oil boiler is cheaper to run than a heat pump with a cop of three even if it is day rate????

Could you please tell me what space heating system you would recommend for use in Rural Ireland that is cost effective to install and cost effective to run????

Your logic says I should buy a fuel with an unregulated price instead of a fuel with a regulated price because it may become unregulated in the future. Please get real.

The First Guru

I looked at that AW16 xcc but it has no certification other than the company selling it says its good as far as I know, so I stayed away and have found much better systems with certified independant and real performances.

Perhaps HeinBloed could tell me what space heating system he would suggest for use in Rural Ireland that is cost effective to install and cost effective to run?????

The First Guru

sorry wrong thread. for last two posts

heinbloed

Answering:

Perhaps HeinBloed could tell me what space heating system he would suggest for use in Rural Ireland that is cost effective to install and cost effective to run?????

Perhaps a professional's advice is better than the sales men blubber? Contact a heating engineer, he or she will sign for the calculations based on real EN standards.
If the real costs and ongoing bills don't match what was promised two contract partners can be nailed down.

creedp

heinbloed wrote: »

Answering:



Perhaps a professional's advice is better than the sales men blubber? Contact a heating engineer, he or she will sign for the calculations based on real EN standards.
If the real costs and ongoing bills don't match what was promised two contract partners can be nailed down.

I shouldn't really be responding here as I've read many comments like above. But I'm curious for someone who riducles the idots who suggest a heat pump irrespective of their build/heat demand/location/etc you are not very good with suggesting alternatives. Is it not a fair question asked by The First Guru? If heat pumps are clearly out, a couple of suggestions for what is in would be in would be interesting.

Additionally I note you are saying that heat pumps with electrical back-up will be problematic. Then what about HPs without electiical back-ups?

Anyway being an idiot what would I know!

heinbloed

Exactly.

creedp

heinbloed wrote: »

Exactly.

Good man Heinbloed. You add so much to this forum .. from an entertaintment perspective in any case

tishiewishie

The First Guru wrote: »

I looked at that AW16 xcc but it has no certification other than the company selling it says its good as far as I know, so I stayed away and have found much better systems with certified independant and real performances.

Perhaps HeinBloed could tell me what space heating system he would suggest for use in Rural Ireland that is cost effective to install and cost effective to run?????

The First Guru, I have checked your previous posts and it's all about heating. I would prefer to get advice from people who don't work for any heating companies just the general public who can fill me in on there own experiences. Thanks