Photographers for an Adventure Weekend feedback thread

Darragh

This thread is a feedback thread about this thread, in which photographers are invited to apply for a photographer's pass at the Adventure Weekend in the RDS.

Threads have been seperated to keep discussion on this one ...

DotOrg

AnimalRights wrote: »

professional.

well professional implies payment for a job, a ticket to allow access to your job, isn't really payment

imagine you worked in AIB, and your payment for the day was to be allowed in behind the counter in AIB

I imagine the fact that all the exhibitors have to pay to be there means the organisers have a small pile of money they allocate for PR purposes, wonder why they don't hire a professional to do a job for them instead of getting photos for free?

Effects

DotOrg wrote: »

well professional implies payment for a job, a ticket to allow access to your job, isn't really payment

imagine you worked in AIB, and your payment for the day was to be allowed in behind the counter in AIB

I imagine the fact that all the exhibitors have to pay to be there means the organisers have a small pile of money they allocate for PR purposes, wonder why they don't hire a professional to do a job for them instead of getting photos for free?

Wait a minute DotOrg, you have to pitch for the job first, you might not get chosen to work for free. Don't be getting ahead of yourself.

DotOrg

Darragh wrote: »

in fact, if you have any questions about the terms or any suggestions on what they should be, please do put them below.

i suggest similar terms and suggestions as explained in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Darragh

DotOrg wrote: »

I imagine the fact that all the exhibitors have to pay to be there means the organisers have a small pile of money they allocate for PR purposes, wonder why they don't hire a professional to do a job for them instead of getting photos for free?

Because I asked them to offer this, to give some of our members the opportunity to do it.

Complaining at me for offering this without you laying out exactly what you think is the problem here is almost pointless. Not only will I get no insight into why this might be a problem, but you'll possibly put off people for whom this could be a genuine opportunity to get experience and portfolio work.

No one is trying to cheat anyone here, I'm just trying to do the best I can for our members, some of whom might enjoy this.

DotOrg wrote: »

i suggest similar terms and suggestions as explained in this video

Noted. However, if you don't like it, don't enter, thanks.

Effects

Darragh wrote: »

Because I asked them to offer this, to give some of our members the opportunity to do it.

You asked them to let forum users to work for free instead of paying someone to take photographs?

Darragh

Effects wrote: »

You asked them to let forum users to work for free instead of paying someone to take photographs?

I asked them to give some of the people who use this forum the opportunity to take photos at their event with access that the public wouldn't get. There will be other photographers there.

daycent

Still trying to figure out where the "opportunity" is......

Eirebear

There will no doubt be multiple threads arguing this point back and forward lads, probably best to leave it to a seperate thread in this case.

Darragh

Well I'd imagine if your photos were good enough, you'd get hired to do other work? Isn't that how it works? Isn't that the investment?

Eirebear

Darragh wrote: »

Well I'd imagine if your photos were good enough, you'd get hired to do other work? Isn't that how it works? Isn't that the investment?

Thats the idea, and it's something that we all do at some point - however we quickly realise that it's not a good idea.

Why pay for something when there is a queue of people who will do it for free?

EDIT - Obviously this is a very simplified take on the whole thing, but nontheless it is very much the crux of the matter.

Darragh

Eirebear wrote: »

Thats the idea, and it's something that we all do at some point - however we quickly realise that it's not a good idea.

Why pay for something when there is a queue of people who will do it for free?

Well, I'm holding my hands up here as not being a photographer, not working in the industry and so not knowing all the ins and outs of this.

I do know though that this is the very first Adventure Weekend and that budgets are tight, as any first time event would be. I do know too that the company that are running it - and the PR company they're working in partnership with - are very good and well respected - otherwise I wouldn't be helping them out. I know they're not out to cheat anyone.

To my mind, people can either enter or not. If they don't, no problem. If they do but would like to be paid for it, then say so, but show why you should be paid and name your price. If the pitch is good enough, why wouldn't they go for it?

Eirebear

Darragh wrote: »

Well, I'm holding my hands up here as not being a photographer, not working in the industry and so not knowing all the ins and outs of this.

I do know though that this is the very first Adventure Weekend and that budgets are tight, as any first time event would be. I do know too that the company that are running it - and the PR company they're working in partnership with - are very good and well respected - otherwise I wouldn't be helping them out. I know they're not out to cheat anyone.

To my mind, people can either enter or not. If they don't, no problem. If they do but would like to be paid for it, then say so, but show why you should be paid and name your price. If the pitch is good enough, why wouldn't they go for it?

Personally, i dont have any issue with the competition/invitation/whatever you want to call it - pretty much for the reasons you have stated above.
I can though, understand the viewpoint of the like of DotOrg, who are being directly undercut by companies hiring amateurs looking for a "credit" as opposed to paying a Pro.

Also, i assume from your title that you run all things PR for Boards.ie - it's your job to get things for free!

Darragh

I do believe that people should be paid for the work they do to the value that it is. As I said, if people have a problem, they should out and out say it, but not "I have a problem", but actually, "Well, in my experience, which is X, this is worth Y. For Y amount, you can expect quality like Z" and go from there.

I also believe that criticism without advice or being constructive is one of the most useless wastes of pixels on the planet. The poor Pixel Farmers (who grow the pixels) children starve because of it. Won't someone think of the children?

oshead

To get a general in's and out's of the photography industry, regarding renumeration, take 5 mins to have a look at this humorous piece. http://www.shouldiworkforfree.com/ It starts in the middle.

Darragh

One of my favorite sites on the internet! That and http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com

Eirebear

Darragh wrote: »

I do believe that people should be paid for the work they do to the value that it is. As I said, if people have a problem, they should out and out say it, but not "I have a problem", but actually, "Well, in my experience, which is X, this is worth Y. For Y amount, you can expect quality like Z" and go from there.

I also believe that criticism without advice or being constructive is one of the most useless wastes of pixels on the planet. The poor Pixel Farmers (who grow the pixels) children starve because of it. Won't someone think of the children?

Pixel Farmers, i like that.

I also agree with you, but as i mentioned earlier - there have been countless threads in this forum regarding the pros and cons of "opportunities" like this, so i guess for someone like DotOrg who is very much a long standing regular the answers tend to become a little shorter as time goes by.
Familiarity and all that.

As i say, it's understandable that such things are treated with suspicion, the photography world is changing rapidly and it is a hell of a lot harder for a pro to make a living purely from photography than it would have been as little as a decade ago.
Issues like this tend to bear a lot of the blame for that.

I'm not questioning your own (Or Boards.ie) intentions with this, as i'm sure they were truly working on the idea that you are giving people an opportunity.

But when you you look at the size of the event, and although i can't find a list of exhibitors on the website, i reckon there will be a fair amount of brands that we recognise there on the day. Which in turn would make most people think that there is definetly a fair budget changing hands somewhere along the line - you dont pay for a weekend at the RDS simply on goodwill.

Darragh

Yep, I appreciate that. http://www.theadventureweekend.ie/exhibitors/exhibitors-list is the list of exhibitors.

You know, I might ask them, once the event is over, to come back as organisers and engage in that discussion with the forum - the costs, the budgets and all that. I'm sure they'd love to learn as much as it might help people pricing their jobs!

Effects

Maybe I'll go to the RDS and ask to get in for free. It's their first time running this event so I'll see what it's like. If it's any good then I'll tell everyone I know that it's good and they can go next year. I'll also pay the entry fee next year based on it being good this year.

Eirebear

Darragh wrote: »

You know, I might ask them, once the event is over, to come back as organisers and engage in that discussion with the forum - the costs, the budgets and all that. I'm sure they'd love to learn as much as it might help people pricing their jobs!

Couldnt hurt, if nothing else it would open up a bit of debate and discussion with 2 sides, rather than a bunch of photographers going around in circles with eachother.

nilhg

The thing that strikes me about this is that the organisers want to pick who they give the free opportunity to, normally if there is no intention to commercially exploit something it would be something like the first five replies get the chance to go.

As an example photowalk.ie are running a promotion in conjunction with Bloom, the first 20 photobloggers (and friends) to register get free media passes, there's no attempt to harvest images there.

Darragh

Okay, that's a fair point and something I'll bring to the attention of the organisers.

However, knowing the way these things work, I guarantee you that the PhotoWalk photos will be used in presentations, as an example of engagement and all that sort of thing, not to mention helping their Google rankings. It's why they do them. Nothing wrong with that of course.

Edit:

To support this, Bloom has also setup a group on Pixie where we’ll gather the photos,

nilhg

Darragh wrote: »

Okay, that's a fair point and something I'll bring to the attention of the organisers.

However, knowing the way these things work, I guarantee you that the PhotoWalk photos will be used in presentations, as an example of engagement and all that sort of thing, not to mention helping their Google rankings. It's why they do them. Nothing wrong with that of course.

Edit:

Darragh

there is no compulsion to post any thing to that pix.ie group, the next part of what you quoted reads

so please feel free to join the group whether your part of the Photowalking group, sharing your own shots, or if you’re just interested to see what’s happening!

I'm not any part of the group that organises photowalk.ie so I'll let them say anything extra that needs to be said about this, I really did only use it as an example

Darragh

Ah I know and I get that. Sorry if that seems a bit argumentative, I don't mean it to be. I'm just trying to accommodate as many sides of this as I can. I will bring this thread to the attention of the organisers - the Pix.ie route might be the one to go down...

magicbastarder

here's a question; how much is a ticket?

will there be any restrictions on paying punters bringing a camera in and shooting away (albeit with more restricted access than a photo pass would grant)?

if not, in essence, you're getting the price of a ticket in exchange for 'selling' your work to them. arguments about trampling on pro photographers toes to one side, that would still mean i would not be at all interested.

mdebets

There is also the question about model releases for the people in the pictures, if they want to use the pictures for advertisement for future events.

Eirebear

mdebets wrote: »

There is also the question about model releases for the people in the pictures, if they want to use the pictures for advertisement for future events.

Not sure about that, it's an enclosed and ticketed event - like a gig, or a sports event.

As such, the T&C's on your ticket will probably include something which infers Model Release rights.

Darragh

UPDATE

Folks, as promised, went back to the organisers. They are very interested in working with photographers in the right way on this - it is the week of the event though so we're limited time wise.

They'd also like to extend the following invitation to you:



If you're going along, can you send a quick RSVP saying you're in to loveus@blinkpr.ie so they know you're coming?

Cheers

Darragh

Tallon

Excellent work Darragh, cheers

linearcutter

To get a general in's and out's of the photography industry, regarding renumeration, take 5 mins to have a look at this humorous piece. http://www.shouldiworkforfree.com/ It starts in the middle.

So many opinions on the whole idea of working for free....this is probably the best I've seen. I may even frame it.

CabanSail

Thanks to Darragh for doing this. Also Thanks to all here who have raised the various "issues" in a polite manner.