Is all abuse the same?

abouttobebanned

I'm sure the answer to this will be yes, but it's worth asking anyway.

Poster A: <insensitive joke about missing child>
Poster B: You're an idiot for making such a statement.

Poster B banned.

biko

No it's not black/white as that, abuse is a very big grey area.

Setting up what constitutes abuse in charters etc is also very tricky as it opens up to "but I didn't do exactly that which was prohibited in the charter, ergo I can not be banned lol".

Do you have any particular post in mind or just a general discussion?
There have been numerous threads on abuse here in Feedback, have you had a look at them?

abouttobebanned

I got an infraction, which I'm not complaining about, but it led me to ask the question.

In the, subsequently deleted, thread about Brian Lenihan and the ill judged death rumours, someone said something along the lines of "Good enough for him, let him rot etc". I called that person an idiot because I think we can all agree that that was insensitive and idiotic.

biko

If you're wanting to discuss a particular case then maybe PM mod, post in helpdesk/etc is better.

But 2c on that case, it seems to me that rather than posting you should have reported it and just let a mod deal with it.

abouttobebanned

Pming a mod ass arrogant as this would not be worth my time to be honest. He deleted the thread in question so I asked a legitimate question, if the thread is gone is it fair that the infraction remains.

here was my reply:

Having both deleted the thread and issued the red card, the best thing you could do for yourself is to make more useful contributions. And leave the abuse at the door. It's not what the forum is for.

Waste someone else's time please.

Is it any wonder why Mods get a bad name.

AckwelFoley

Abuse is abuse. <---- that dot is a full stop

All abuse is and should be banned. I call you a bollox for starting this thread - i would deserve a ban - i call you a thundering idiot for thinking an elephant is bigger than the moon, although im correct - i still deserve a ban.

Your mistake was how you went about presenting your feelings toward the person that made such comments about Brian Lenihan

"You're an idiot"

a more preferable statment would be -

"that statement is vile and disgusting one which you should be ashamed of"

I would then add a link to the bottom of your post, enabling them to look up words such as "vile".


Play the ball not the man

OutlawPete

snyper wrote: »

Abuse is abuse.

All abuse is and should be banned. I call you a bollox for starting this thread - i would deserve a ban - i call you a thundering idiot for thinking an elephant is bigger than the moon, although im correct - i still deserve a ban.

Couldn't agree more. Had this discussion with a CMod recently who took the opposite view, but as far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse for personal abuse, none. If a user posts something that a member finds either personally offensive or just offensive on a general level, then they can report the post(s) and let moderators deal with it, no need to resort to personal abuse.

If moderators don't deal with the reported post(s) for some reason, then the option is there for all Board's users to follow it up the line, as far as Admin and beyond if needs be, to see that something is done about it. We all have that option available to us and so I see no reason why a user should feel the need to start being abusive to another user and attacking them, rather than the content of their post.

If genuine examples of personal abuse go unmoderated because it is felt that something the abused member might have said prior to the abuse on the thread triggered the abuse, then what that is basically saying is that personal abuse is sometimes fine given that same set of circumstances were again to occur. In essence, creating an exemption to the abuse rule which will ultimately been seen as follows:

"X posted personal abuse in response to Y .. and they didn't get moderated for it and so I'm going to do the same!"

To use the OP's example:

Poster A: <insensitive joke about missing child>
Poster B: You're an idiot for making such a statement.

If the above personal abuse by Poster B is allowed, based purely on the fact that Poster A's joke was deemed to be somewhat deserving of it, then what happens when Poster C, D, E, F, G, H, I and J also decide to post on the same thread and call Poster A an "idiot" too? Will they get moderated for it?

Well, if they do - they can then just turn around and say:

"Hey, that's not fair, if Poster B was allowed to call Poster A an "idiot" .. then why can't we??"

And they would of course have a very good point, which is why I feel personal abuse should NEVER be tolerated. If Poster A is deemed to be worthy of personal abuse, then mods should moderate him/her sufficiently for whatever his/her sins are, not look on the abuse as somehow equaling up the score. Then Poster B could/should have no complaints or justification for being personally abusive in retort or retaliation to whatever it was that offended him or her, as he/she will have already had their justice with the moderation.

biko

Just to clarify:
One of the several definitions of abuse is "Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse" or "To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile".
This is what is most commonly referred to when claiming abuse on boards.

If you feel you have been subject to "Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse" then please do report the post and let a moderator have a look.

Darragh

OutlawPete wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. Had this discussion with a CMod recently who took the opposite view, but as far as I'm concerned, there is no excuse for personal abuse, none. If a user posts something that a member finds either personally offensive or just offensive on a general level, then they can report the post(s) and let moderators deal with it, no need to resort to personal abuse.

If mods don't deal with the post(s) and for some reason fail to take action, then the option is there for all members of Boards to follow it up the line as far as Admin until something is done about the posts. We all have that option available to us and so I see no reason why a user should be excused for posting personal abuse.

Main reason being, if personal abuse is ever excused by a moderator(s), based purely on something that the member that the abuse was directed at, had said prior to the abuse being posted, then what you are basically saying is that abuse is fine if that same set of circumstances were to occur again.

"X posted personal abuse in response to Y and was not moderated for it and so then why can't I?"

Same with leaving personal abuse and not moderating it based on the opinion that it is somehow justified.

To use the OP's example:



If personal abuse by Poster B is allowed, because of the Poster A's joke, then what happens when Poster C, D, E, F, G, H, I an J also call poster A an "idiot" or worse? Will they get moderated for it? Well, if they do get moderated for it, won't they just say:

"Hey, that's not fair, Poster B was allowed to call Poster A an "idiot" .. so why can't we??"

And they would of course have a point, which is why I feel personal abuse should NEVER be tolerated. If Poster A is deemed to be worthy of personal abuse, then moderate him sufficiently for whatever his/her sins are, then Poster B should have no complaints or feel any need to be personally abusive in retort or perceived retaliation, as he/she will have had their justice already.

Spot on there. Just to repeat.

There is no excuse for personal abuse, none. If a user posts something that a member finds either personally offensive or just offensive on a general level, then they can report the post(s) and let moderators deal with it, no need to resort to personal abuse.

nesf

Abuse is abuse, context determines the severity of the punishment.

metrovelvet

Abuse is whatever the moderator thinks is abuse, can change for any reason, including a full moon or a change in atmospheric pressure.

Insect Overlord

metrovelvet wrote: »

Abuse is whatever the moderator thinks is abuse, can change for any reason, including a full moon or a change in atmospheric pressure.

Someone's holding a grudge...

Overheal

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I'm sure the answer to this will be yes, but it's worth asking anyway.

Poster A: <insensitive joke about missing child>
Poster B: You're an idiot for making such a statement.

Poster B banned.

Poster A does get banned more often than you think. Depends on nature and atmosphere of thread though, typically. A good example is a user who creates an OP to start a somber-toned topic and someone comes a long and cracks a joke such as what you've said there. In contrast a thread knocking justin beiber is there expressly to knock justin beiber. And he does deserve to be knocked. I have to see that DVD cover at work. That child needs to be facepunched. I bet he cries like a girl.

mstan

I made a comment yesterday abusing another member. I knew what I was saying and I was aware that I faced punishment for it. But I only posted it as a response to a nasty comment he made. And as I predicted in my post I was punished and he wasnt. This guy is constantly posting nasty, bitter and childish comments about people (generally those who have been successful in life). Some are extremely abusive. And yet the Mods do nothing. I dont know why.

But I have noticed a thread with the AH Mods. It seems the regular guard (members with a few thousand posts) get away with a lot more than the likes of me with a low post count. Im sure if I were to have posted half the nonsense that Degsy has I would have been given a site ban long ago.

LoLth

mstan wrote: »

I made a comment yesterday abusing another member. I knew what I was saying and I was aware that I faced punishment for it. But I only posted it as a response to a nasty comment he made. And as I predicted in my post I was punished and he wasnt. This guy is constantly posting nasty, bitter and childish comments about people (generally those who have been successful in life). Some are extremely abusive. And yet the Mods do nothing. I dont know why.

But I have noticed a thread with the AH Mods. It seems the regular guard (members with a few thousand posts) get away with a lot more than the likes of me with a low post count. Im sure if I were to have posted half the nonsense that user has I would have been given a site ban long ago.

there's a common phrase on boards "attack the post and not the poster". Your actions went completely against that.

If you have a problem with a users post, report it. If you feel that your reported posts are not being taken seriously, PM a mod and ask them (politely) why not and see if you can get a clarification on what you see as being out of order and what the mods consider out of order. Did you report the other user's post?

If you have a grievance about the treatment you received from a moderator please take it to the Dispute resolution forum in the helpdesk (after PMing the mod and allowing time for a response).

MitchKoobski

mstan wrote: »

I made a comment yesterday abusing another member. I knew what I was saying and I was aware that I faced punishment for it. But I only posted it as a response to a nasty comment he made. And as I predicted in my post I was punished and he wasnt. This guy is constantly posting nasty, bitter and childish comments about people (generally those who have been successful in life). Some are extremely abusive. And yet the Mods do nothing. I dont know why.

But I have noticed a thread with the AH Mods. It seems the regular guard (members with a few thousand posts) get away with a lot more than the likes of me with a low post count. Im sure if I were to have posted half the nonsense that user has I would have been given a site ban long ago.

1. You were abusing another member directly.
2. the user was abusing a celebrity who is not a member of boards.
3. Report the post if you want him punished.

Kiera

mstan wrote: »

I made a comment yesterday abusing another member. I knew what I was saying and I was aware that I faced punishment for it. But I only posted it as a response to a nasty comment he made. And as I predicted in my post I was punished and he wasnt.

He wasn’t abusing a member of the site. You were. You knew you were breaking the rules and got off lightly IMO. People have been banned for a few days for that kind of remark.

mstan wrote: »

This guy is constantly posting nasty, bitter and childish comments about people (generally those who have been successful in life). Some are extremely abusive. And yet the Mods do nothing. I dont know why.

How do you know they do nothing? I’m not sticking up for him but he does not get away with whatever he likes. In fact, he is one of the most banned users in AH in my head. Well him and Flutter.

mstan wrote: »

But I have noticed a thread with the AH Mods. It seems the regular guard (members with a few thousand posts) get away with a lot more than the likes of me with a low post count. Im sure if I were to have posted half the nonsense that user has I would have been given a site ban long ago.

This is BS. Most of them are on the ball. They treat everyone the same. If i called someone a wanker as you did i'd get punished. In fact i might get a harder punishment as i have been here a few years and should know the rules.

Latchy

I could have reported a poster for a comment he made which would to some , have being Interpreted as being racist but it was all down to the wording and Interpretation and rather than bang a drum about it , I gave him the benefit of the doubt , although he might have thought he got one over on me . However the Mod of the forum didn't see it like that and gave him a temporary ban which was ok by me .

LoLth

mod note

I've edited the above psots to remove the user's name as I dotn want this to turn into a "I hate X! burn him!" vs "X is kind and good. its you that shall die today!" type trhead.

lets keep it generic please and for what its worth, I think that incident has already been covered as much as it needs to be. If mstan wants to complain any further he can follow the DRP. This is, after all, feedback and not the court of popular opinion.

thanks

LoLth

mstan

Kiera wrote: »

He wasn’t abusing a member of the site. You were. You knew you were breaking the rules and got off lightly IMO. People have been banned for a few days for that kind of remark.

Abuse is abuse. I dont see how someone can be allowed make nasty comments about "celebrities" and yet be protected themselves from recieving any abuse. At least other Boards members can defend themselves when subjected to abuse unlike non-members.

And how do you know that some of these "celebs" that he is constantly abusing aren't members of Boards?

Darragh

mstan wrote: »

Abuse is abuse. I dont see how someone can be allowed make nasty comments about "celebrities" and yet be protected themselves from recieving any abuse. At least other Boards members can defend themselves when subjected to abuse unlike non-members.

And how do you know that some of these "celebs" that he is constantly abusing aren't members of Boards?

I'm 100% behind this. Abuse is abuse, no matter who it's about and it shouldn't be allowed.

Kiera

Darragh wrote: »

I'm 100% behind this. Abuse is abuse, no matter who it's about and it shouldn't be allowed.

Are you going to change the terms and conditions to reflex this?

Darragh

Kiera wrote: »

Are you going to change the terms and conditions to reflex this?

It's already there and has been since we put them up

4. What you agree to when joining Boards.ie

Boards.ie is made available for your personal, non-commercial use only, except where otherwise authorised by us.
You agree NOT to use Boards.ie to:

• post illegal Material
• defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the rights (such as rights of privacy and publicity) of others

We trust moderators to judge what is and isn't abuse, depending on the culture of their forum and the context of the discussions.

invinciblePRSTV

What happens if Mods decide to ignore abuse?

For example in the UCC forum I was called an asshole by another poster, when I reported the post the mod ignored it, then when i reported it again the mod said because it was exam time that they were ignoring abusive posts.

Is this boards.ie policy?

Darragh

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What happens if Mods decide to ignore abuse?

For example in the UCC forum I was called an asshole by another poster, when I reported the post the mod ignored it, then when i reported it again the mod said because it was exam time that they were ignoring abusive posts.

Is this boards.ie policy?

No. It's something that should be brought to the attention of the cMods or Admins by PM or in this forum...

invinciblePRSTV

Darragh wrote: »

No. It's something that should be brought to the attention of the cMods or Admins by PM or in this forum...

I PMed the Cmod for the category Spurious twice, that was a few weeks ago and still no reply.....

What do i now, who do i PM next? or do i just start a thread here or in helpdesk?

Cookie_Monster

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I'm sure the answer to this will be yes, but it's worth asking anyway.

Poster A: <insensitive joke about missing child>
Poster B: You're an idiot for making such a statement.

Poster B banned.

A generic and not directed
B directed

that's the difference as I see it anyway, nothing wrong with A unless it's specifically directed at someone

Kiera

Darragh wrote: »

It's already there and has been since we put them up


[/LIST]
We trust moderators to judge what is and isn't abuse, depending on the culture of their forum and the context of the discussions.

Well it seems the mods arent aware of this. A mod was in the thread where mstan posted as he received a red card for his abuse and the other user didnt get one for calling Bono a wanker. Or are we allowed to call celebs **** in AH?

Micky Dolenz

Kiera wrote: »

Well it seems the mods arent aware of this. A mod was in the thread where mstan posted as he received a red card for his abuse and the other user didnt get one for calling Bono a wanker. Or are we allowed to call celebs **** in AH?

We are aware of it. We sometimes use our discretion. I could have done a number of things there. I could have banned both users, this would have been harsh. Instead I infracted mstan for abusing a boardsie. The other boardsie was given the benefit of the doubt, as to their intent. In hind sight a card may have been warranted.

To be accused of favouritism is hugely disappointing.

g'em

Kiera wrote: »

Or are we allowed to call celebs **** in AH?

The whole celeb abuse issue is something that we're trying to hash out behind the scenes at the moment and we're trying really hard to be fair to everyone. Given that the AH forum is so high volume it's essentially being used as a "Test" forum before rolling out the policy across the site.

But no, celebs can't be called **** or asshóles or sluts or geebags or whores or any other kind of abusive term.

Having said that... it's an ideal rule and yes posts will slip through the cracks.

Kiera

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

We are aware of it. We sometimes use our discretion. I could have done a number of things there. I could have banned both users, this would have been harsh. Instead I infracted mstan for abusing a boardsie. The other boardsie was given the benefit of the doubt, as to their intent. In hind sight a card may have been warranted.

To be accused of favouritism is hugely disappointing.

Ah if i knew it was you who carded him i would have kept my mouth shut :P

/joking

Darragh, how about the celeb forum? There's a thread in there about the ruddest celeb you've ever met. Can i name someone and call them a prick? If i think they're a prick then why cant i say so?

Darragh

Kiera wrote: »

Ah if i knew it was you who carded him i would have kept my mouth shut :P

/joking

Darragh, how about the celeb forum? There's a thread in there about the ruddest celeb you've ever met. Can i name someone and call them a prick? If i think they're a prick then why cant i say so?

Kiera

If you're prepared to put a post up calling someone a prick, a wanker or whatever, along with your name, email address and home address, then do so. If you're not (or wouldn't be) prepared to do that, then don't put the post on Boards.ie. It's really as simple as that.

If someone takes court action, it won't be Boards.ie that they'll be suing, but the person who put up the post.

Does that help?

Darragh

Kiera

g'em wrote: »

The whole celeb abuse issue is something that we're trying to hash out behind the scenes at the moment and we're trying really hard to be fair to everyone. Given that the AH forum is so high volume it's essentially being used as a "Test" forum before rolling out the policy across the site.

But no, celebs can't be called **** or asshóles or sluts or geebags or whores or any other kind of abusive term.

Having said that... it's an ideal rule and yes posts will slip through the cracks.

That's fair enough, g'em. Would it not be better to roll it out in a less jokey forum tho? Bringing in a rule like this would sterilise somewhere like AH, dont you think? If i thought someone was a wanker, asshole i'd have to use a term like nincompoop?

Kiera

Darragh wrote: »

Kiera

If you're prepared to put a post up calling someone a prick, a wanker or whatever, along with your name, email address and home address, then do so. If you're not (or wouldn't be) prepared to do that, then don't put the post on Boards.ie. It's really as simple as that.

If someone takes court action, it won't be Boards.ie that they'll be suing, but the person who put up the post.
Does that help?

Darragh

Wut? Then pass on their IP address and other details?

g'em

Kiera wrote: »

That's fair enough, g'em. Would it not be better to roll it out in a less jokey forum tho? Bringing in a rule like this would sterilise somewhere like AH, dont you think? If i thought someone was a wanker, asshole i'd have to use a term like nincompoop?

I can see what you mean but I honestly don't think so. If anything I think it makes for a better forum. Say for example a thread starts about Celebrity X:

Did you see that story about Ms. X in the Daily Fail <insert link>?

OMFG what a slutwhore :mad:

I'd ride ten shades out of shít outta that piece of ass, all she's good for, stupid bitch

etc...

OR

Did you see that story about Ms. X in the Daily Fail <insert link>?

I don't really understand why people do that, I mean it's just so stupid

General discussion about celebrity motives ensues that's relatively civil.

I know the first looks quite OTT but it happens amazingly frequently. The problem is that once celeb abuse starts it's hard to put the lid on it, people keep pushing it further and further and it gets really hard to draw the line.

Just because it's AH it doesn't mean that it ok to have a cesspool of vitriolic nastiness in there - the Mods in there have worked really hard to make it what it is, and while it might not be to everyone's taste there's some fantastic discussion in there on a range of topics. There's still lots and lots of joking too I don't think banning abuse on celebrities would sterilise that at all, but it would possibly make for a more well-rounded forum where more people are likely to post?

Kiera

g'em wrote: »

I can see what you mean but I honestly don't think so. If anything I think it makes for a better forum. Say for example a thread starts about celebrity X





etc...

OR





General discussion abotu celebrity motives ensues that's relatively civil.

I know the first looks quite OTT but it happens amazingly frequently. The problem is that once celeb abuse starts it's hard to put the lid on it, people keep pushing it further and further and it gets really hard to draw the line.

Just because it's Ah it doesn't mean that it ok to have a cesspool of vitriolic nastiness in there - the Mods in there have worked really hard to make it what it is, and while it might not be to everyone's taste there's some fantastic discussion in there on a range of topics. There's still lots and lots of joking too I don't think banning abuse on celebrities would sterlisise that at all, but it would possibly make for a more well-rounded forum where more people are likely to post?

I actually got a giggle out of the first conversation tho (loving slutwhore ) and yes i know its abusive but i probably would have thanked that post cause it made me laugh. I like AH cause of the funny replies and banter. The second conversation just seems dull and boring and if i wanted that, i could use one of the other forums.

I do get that some will try push the limits with regards to abuse but i dont think cutting it out totally in AH is the way to go. The way Micky modded that thread was fine but Darragh is saying that there is a blanket ban on all celeb abuse which i get if its harsh abuse but calling a dude a wanker is kinda stating the truth unless they dont have hands? I mean, where do you draw the line? Can you call someone a tool, knob or spanner. Or are they too harsh too?

Darragh

Kiera wrote: »

Darragh is saying that there is a blanket ban on all celeb abuse which i get if its harsh abuse but calling a dude a wanker is kinda stating the truth unless they dont have hands? I mean, where do you draw the line? Can you call someone a tool, knob or spanner. Or are they too harsh too?

What Darragh is saying is this

It's up to the moderators of the forum to judge whether a post is abusive or not. They'll take into account the context, tone, previous posts of the poster and culture of the forum in making that assessment.

It's not that there's a blanket ban on "celeb" abuse, it's that there's a ban on all abuse.

If you see an abusive post, report it for moderator attention.

mstan

Kiera wrote: »

I actually got a giggle out of the first conversation tho (loving slutwhore ) and yes i know its abusive but i probably would have thanked that post cause it made me laugh. I like AH cause of the funny replies and banter. The second conversation just seems dull and boring and if i wanted that, i could use one of the other forums.

Kiera, can you answer me honestly; would you have found that comment as funny if it was about you? If someone posted your real name and details and then said you were a "slutwhore" would you find it funny?

Kiera wrote: »

calling a dude a wanker is kinda stating the truth unless they dont have hands? I mean, where do you draw the line? Can you call someone a tool, knob or spanner. Or are they too harsh too?

Actually he called Bono a prick. I was the one who then called him (the poster) a wanker. And you were the very person who said on the previous page of this thread that I "got off lightly" for calling another Boardie a wanker. I just dont understand how people think its ok to abuse "celeb" (who might not be members of Boards and therefore cant even defend themselves) yet they think that being members of Boards they should be immune from any form of abuse.

Kiera

mstan wrote: »

Kiera, can you answer me honestly; would you have found that comment as funny if it was about you? If someone posted your real name and details and then said you were a "slutwhore" would you find it funny?

Have you been in the Dome? I've been called a lot worse, buddy

To be honest i'm very thick skinned and someone calling me a slutwhore wouldnt make me bat an eyelid. I find the word funny

mstan wrote: »

Actually he called Bono a prick. I was the one who then called him (the poster) a wanker. And you were the very person who said on the previous page of this thread that I "got off lightly" for calling another Boardie a wanker. I just dont understand how people think its ok to abuse "celeb" (who might not be members of Boards and therefore cant even defend themselves) yet they think that being members of Boards they should be immune from any form of abuse.

Did you report his post? No. So quit your little "there should be no celeb abuse" rant if you didnt do anything to help the mods!

LoLth

ahem

lets try to keep the discussion calm please. not saying anyones gone overboard, yet, but its looking likely that it could head that way.