Opinions on LC and JC maths courses

kneeelix

I'm curious as to the general opinion of the junior cert and leaving cert maths courses and how they are taught. If anybody would like to offer their opinions it would be great. I am wondering if people think the courses should be taught in a different way or structured differently and if so how would you like to be taught maths? I don't think many people ask students how they would like to be taught and I am just curious.

Some things you might like to comment on:
Do you find the courses are too hard/too easy?
Not explained as well as they could be? If so which topics?
Only certain topics are explained properly? Again which ones?
Some of the sections are completely useless and should not be on the course?
A lack of understanding of the fundamental concepts?
What are the main barriers to understanding the topics? is it a lack of relevant questions or is it that maths is viewed as being generally pointless in the real world?

Any other opinions would be very much welcomed.
I would like to open up a good debate on this and hopefully not have the thread turn into teacher bashing with comments like "my teacher is awful" etc.

Maybe_Memories

kneeelix wrote: »

I'm curious as to the general opinion of the junior cert and leaving cert maths courses and how they are taught. If anybody would like to offer their opinions it would be great. I am wondering if people think the courses should be taught in a different way or structured differently and if so how would you like to be taught maths? I don't think many people ask students how they would like to be taught and I am just curious.

Some things you might like to comment on:
Do you find the courses are too hard/too easy?
Not explained as well as they could be? If so which topics?
Only certain topics are explained properly? Again which ones?
Some of the sections are completely useless and should not be on the course?
A lack of understanding of the fundamental concepts?
What are the main barriers to understanding the topics? is it a lack of relevant questions or is it that maths is viewed as being generally pointless in the real world?

Any other opinions would be very much welcomed.
I would like to open up a good debate on this and hopefully not have the thread turn into teacher bashing with comments like "my teacher is awful" etc.

I can only comment on LC HL maths, as I don't remember much of JC.

The old course, i.e. the non PM course, was very good as it actually provided a good introduction to mathematics as it would be at third level. There isn't anything that should be removed, despite PM, and although it would be nice to see things like vector spaces added, there simply isn't enough room.

Your question of how one would like to be taught: I personally don't do very well when it comes to someone like a teacher explaining something to me, I understand maths far better when I have to go off and read the book and do the problems myself.

The way I like learning is being given a list of what i need to know, a book that has all the info, and examples of the basic problems of that topic.

As for maths being pointless in the real world... The rocket equation is something I find amazing, I actually get enjoyment from deriving it, and I find the wave equation aesthetically pleasing. (Yes, I'm a freak). Both of these have countless real world applications. I did applied maths by myself outside school for the lc by myself, and my pure maths really benefited from it because I was applying everything I learned in pure maths.

Can't comment on anything being taught badly, my teacher was as good as it gets.

Aoifums

I know the way I was taught Algebra in first year was flawed. There is something seriously wrong when a class who has sat the Junior Cert doesn't realise that you can't add two unknowns.

I'm doing OL maths now. The course is a breeze and I wish it wasn't so easy. I have gotten A's consistantly throughout the last two years without trying. But I'm nowhere near able for HL maths, as I was in the class in fourth year and couldn't keep up. I wish there was a middle ground exam, one that could keep me challenged enough to enjoy it but still not consume all my time and energy.

I can't comment on teaching styles much. I too prefer to teach it to myself. My current teacher is excellent but I still prefer to sit down and work out problems by myself.

I should probably add in a little about Linear Programming. It is the only topic that goes completely over my head. No matter how hard I try to understand it, I just can't wrap my head around it. I don't know if that is a problem with me or with the way it is needed to be learned for the LC but it's my nightmare topic on the course.

kneeelix

So you both prefer the hands on type approach where the material is given to you and you work through it yourself only approaching a teacher if you need additional help? To be honest I was the same. I loved maths and find it infinately useful in the real world. Is this where the gap lies in the current courses? A lack of understanding how it applies to the real world?
I do remember there being a considerable number of students who hated the subject regularly saying things like "trigonometry what use will that ever be?" or "what's the point in learning about vectors?". I am a few years away from the LC now and was wondering have opinions changed?

I won't comment on project maths as I don't know an awful lot about it. Have you taken part in this and how do you find it? Maybe_Memories I have a feeling you don't like the PM course.:p I know its an attempt to encourage more students to take up maths in a more team based environment where other students can help those who may be having difficulty. Do you think it works or have you seen students who have benefitted from this style of learning?

Aoifums it's interesting that you would like an exam like an advanced ordinary level. It would be great if that could be accomodated. I am sure there are many students similar to yourself. HL is an awful lot of work with so many topics to cover. Maybe just one paper for both OL and HL with optional extra questions for the HL could be one solution to that. then the student can attempt whatever they feel capable of on the day. This may cause issues in schools though with different classes for OL and HL.

Meowth

I'm currently at the end of fifth year honours maths i'm doing the new course with project maths and find it ok its really interesting ... i do think that we should learn calcalus from 1st year as i find it really hard to pick it up!! like everything else is just developed from the JC which is good i still remember my basics and learning more about each topic is good not much else to say i find maths really easy

Chuchoter

The JC and LC are not the core of the maths problem. Primary school is. Kids come in with a **** understanding of fractions, no algebra and just a very poor concept of maths in general. They need to bring in a primary cert type thing to make sure primary schools are covering things. In my own opinion, everyone should come into 1st year with all the basics of algebra, basic co-ordinate geometry and basic geometry.

Sunny!!

i was giving a glance at the new course for lc hl and ol, one word STUPID

Maybe_Memories

kneeelix wrote: »

So you both prefer the hands on type approach where the material is given to you and you work through it yourself only approaching a teacher if you need additional help? To be honest I was the same. I loved maths and find it infinately useful in the real world. Is this where the gap lies in the current courses? A lack of understanding how it applies to the real world?
I do remember there being a considerable number of students who hated the subject regularly saying things like "trigonometry what use will that ever be?" or "what's the point in learning about vectors?". I am a few years away from the LC now and was wondering have opinions changed?

I won't comment on project maths as I don't know an awful lot about it. Have you taken part in this and how do you find it? Maybe_Memories I have a feeling you don't like the PM course.:p I know its an attempt to encourage more students to take up maths in a more team based environment where other students can help those who may be having difficulty. Do you think it works or have you seen students who have benefitted from this style of learning?

Aoifums it's interesting that you would like an exam like an advanced ordinary level. It would be great if that could be accomodated. I am sure there are many students similar to yourself. HL is an awful lot of work with so many topics to cover. Maybe just one paper for both OL and HL with optional extra questions for the HL could be one solution to that. then the student can attempt whatever they feel capable of on the day. This may cause issues in schools though with different classes for OL and HL.

In my opinion, instead of changing the current syllabus, they should have simply removed probability and statistics and made a new course based on those. That would have kept everyone happy.

Fad

I did the outgoing OL maths syllabus.

Difference between HL and OL is ridiculous, OL was too easy for me, HL required too much work for me.

Having said that, I very much regret giving up on HL in 4th year, I had two teachers for maths at JC level, one was just lazy, the second took a "I'M GOING TO SCARE YOU INTO LEARNING EVERYTHING BY WROTE AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND A THING BUT YOU'LL PASS" method.

Both of those are part of the reason I find college maths quite difficult, I struggle with a lot of very elementary topics (Exponents? WHAT, you might think they're hilariously easy, and they are, but when you're just made learn it off and not told the rules behind them, it makes it a bit of a pain to look back when you're studying calculus at a level far beyond OL calc).

Maths in secondary school seemed really really arbitrary at times too, Sets for example. It just seemed like you're drawing pictures for the craic in first year, but it turns out they actually can be useful for probability theorems (I didn't do it at a particularly high level, but it was useful for what I was doing).

General maths notation should be explained a lot better through out school, even if I sit down with a textbook now, I can still be completely overwhelmed but notation and that makes it particularly difficult when I'm trying to reteach myself a topic without going near my lecturers notes.... That however seems to be a problem with the maths world in general, not just within the Irish Education System.

Project maths is getting a lot of flak for dumbing down maths, and I'm sure it is to an extent, but the idea of making it less meaningless is a good idea....

AG2R

Yeah I'm doing OL maths after dropping down from HL, they difference is massive, OL is walk in the park.
Should be made more difficult imo but in saying that I wont complain til after June

Funny_Bones

As a Maths teacher I can see flaws to the course. ie-Leaving Cert ordinary level students having to do differentiation from first principals when they still struggle with the basic concepts.
The idea of Project Maths is great but I think it needs to start from the first learning of maths right up and I think introducing the course at 5th year was a bad idea. It is hard to train minds to work differently at that age, it needs to be happening(and should have been) all along.

chiloutus

crayolastereo wrote: »

The JC and LC are not the core of the maths problem. Primary school is. Kids come in with a **** understanding of fractions, no algebra and just a very poor concept of maths in general. They need to bring in a primary cert type thing to make sure primary schools are covering things. In my own opinion, everyone should come into 1st year with all the basics of algebra, basic co-ordinate geometry and basic geometry.

Just want to jump in on this debate from here, don't take this in an insulting way but I think you'll find that if you go back and enter a 5th or 6th class situation you will find that the maths they are doing compared to what used to be taught has improved greatly.

You do make some valid points, but can a 12 year old really wrap his head around co-ordinate geometry? I personally think you ask too much of a child.

Maybe_Memories

chiloutus wrote: »

You do make some valid points, but can a 12 year old really wrap his head around co-ordinate geometry? I personally think you ask too much of a child.

Children learn their first language by being immersed in it, practicing it, making mistakes and being corrected.
If the same was done with maths, surely they could technically be at a university standard by the time they enter secondary school?

kneeelix

Maybe_Memories wrote: »

In my opinion, instead of changing the current syllabus, they should have simply removed probability and statistics and made a new course based on those. That would have kept everyone happy.

I would agree. I think that both these sections are filler sections on the course compared to the larger more in depth sections. I would prefer to know alot about a little that a little about alot.

Fad wrote: »

"Having said that, I very much regret giving up on HL in 4th year, I had two teachers for maths at JC level, one was just lazy, the second took a "I'M GOING TO SCARE YOU INTO LEARNING EVERYTHING BY WROTE AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND A THING BUT YOU'LL PASS" method."

"General maths notation should be explained a lot better through out school, even if I sit down with a textbook now, I can still be completely overwhelmed but notation and that makes it particularly difficult when I'm trying to reteach myself a topic without going near my lecturers notes.... That however seems to be a problem with the maths world in general, not just within the Irish Education System."

"Project maths is getting a lot of flak for dumbing down maths, and I'm sure it is to an extent, but the idea of making it less meaningless is a good idea...."

Scare tactics can work for some subjects but unfortunately maths is not one of them. It would be nice if there had been even a two page summary of all the notation i am sure this could be included at no extra effort on the part of the book authors. most college books have a notation key of some sort in the appendices.

I used to struggle with understanding concepts fully and would end up thinking I was stupid because everybody else understood it and I didn't but I do genuinely think that some textbooks try to over complicate things with over indulgent language and explanations and yet never really address the core of the problem. I think nearly all schools use text and tests?

From talking with students at open days etc most fail to find why a topic is relevant. If project maths aims to close this gap then that is a step forward although the method may not suit everybody.