I want to move my savings out of reach of the Irish Government.

Bens

Following on from our plans to discontinue AVCs

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72235668#post72235668

we also want to make sure our savings current and future are out of reach of the government. It is an issue of security now. I am not convinced at all that any of my savings are safe. Or that any of my pension fund will be there when I retire.

I dont care about projected growth anymore. Only that the government now seem to think its OK to just seize peoples savings. I thought pensions were supposed to be untouchable - to allow people to plan. Obviously not. If they do it once, you can be damn sure they'll do it again. And it will be deposits next.

So basically we are stopping putting anymore money into pensions. We want to move savings away. And we are lookign for proven ways to do this.

I dont think just putting money in a foreign bank account will be enough. They can still get it.

Has anyone got any knowledge on how to protect savings from the Irish government? If so it would be great to hear it.

As a last resort we will emigrate, so we are out of reach.
And I used to think you only had to emigrate if you lost your job and couldnt get another !!!

landsleaving

You could buy gold with your savings, but you would have to suffer it's changing value.

You could also invest in the lowest risk stock you can find.

later12

Bens wrote: »

Has anyone got any knowledge on how to protect savings from the Irish government? If so it would be great to hear it.

As a last resort we will emigrate, so we are out of reach.

It's hardly as drastic as emigrating... just buy gold like another person said, and put it into storage. Or if you wish to preserve the money in cash send it abroad, it's become very easy. I would suggest you contact a well established financial adviser and speak with him face to face.

sarumite

later10 wrote: »

It's hardly as drastic as emigrating... just buy gold like another person said, and put it into storage. Or if you wish to preserve the money in cash send it abroad, it's become very easy. I would suggest you contact a well established financial adviser and speak with him face to face.

That depends on whether you heed what the economist mag has said, believing that the comodities market, and gold in particular, is having its own bubble. Is it still the time to buy gold, or was that 2-3 years ago?

RichardAnd

It's frightening that people are worried about their savings being taken by their own, democratically elected government.

HellFireClub

Bens wrote: »

Following on from our plans to discontinue AVCs

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72235668#post72235668

we also want to make sure our savings current and future are out of reach of the government. It is an issue of security now. I am not convinced at all that any of my savings are safe. Or that any of my pension fund will be there when I retire.

I dont care about projected growth anymore. Only that the government now seem to think its OK to just seize peoples savings. I thought pensions were supposed to be untouchable - to allow people to plan. Obviously not. If they do it once, you can be damn sure they'll do it again. And it will be deposits next.

So basically we are stopping putting anymore money into pensions. We want to move savings away. And we are lookign for proven ways to do this.

I dont think just putting money in a foreign bank account will be enough. They can still get it.

Has anyone got any knowledge on how to protect savings from the Irish government? If so it would be great to hear it.

As a last resort we will emigrate, so we are out of reach.
And I used to think you only had to emigrate if you lost your job and couldnt get another !!!

I couldn't agree with you more. A lot of people seem to be missing the point that pension funds are nothing other than savings. You take money out of your salary and put it into a savings scheme called a pension. The government now reckons that it is a great idea to take your savings. This raid on pensions is a raid on savings in my opinion, because a pension scheme is nothing other than a savings scheme.

I recently started a small business and the policy now is to leave no funds in the bank unless they have to be there to cover direct debits. You can't trust the Irish banks and you can't trust the government that is running them even less.

We have an awful lot of sovereign debt that we will have to refinance next year, we won't be able to get it from the markets, we are still running the country as if we were in a boom, and we've already been given a bail out, so this government will have to get a serious lump sum from somewhere next year to roll over debt that the bonds will have matured on, I neither know nor care at this stage where they get it from, but they won't be getting it out of me, I know that for sure...

later12

sarumite wrote: »

That depends on whether you heed what the economist mag has said, believing that the comodities market, and gold in particular, is having its own bubble. Is it still the time to buy gold, or was that 2-3 years ago?

The price of gold may fall relative to where it is in the medium term, and gold is not immune from a bubble, but no, I think it is stretching things to say that gold is actually having its own bubble as things stand. A bubble isn't just created by high prices, there are reasons for reassurance about the sustainability, very generally, of gold prices. It depends on how much the OP would be putting in.

On the other hand, commodities are a different story and giving off a lot of heat. I wouldn't advise the OP to go invest in copper, necessarily, but then neither am I a financial adviser anyway, and that's probably what s/he needs.

sceptre

Moved to Investments & Markets.

lasnoufle

Bens wrote: »

I dont think just putting money in a foreign bank account will be enough. They can still get it.

Hi

I'm interested on why you think that - are you talking about Irish nationals here or every worker in Ireland? I'm not Irish and sending almost all my money on another account I have abroad, I really don't see how the government could get anything from it.

Bens

lasnoufle wrote: »

Hi

I'm interested on why you think that - are you talking about Irish nationals here or every worker in Ireland? I'm not Irish and sending almost all my money on another account I have abroad, I really don't see how the government could get anything from it.

If you can owe them money on savings in offshore accounts just by being resident in Ireland, then I reckon they can reach out and touch your savings abroad if you are still resident in Ireland.

To the poster who thinks gold is a good bet - I dont really want all my eggs in one basket either.

lasnoufle

Bens wrote: »

If you can owe them money on savings in offshore accounts just by being resident in Ireland, then I reckon they can reach out and touch your savings abroad if you are still resident in Ireland.

But how can they do that, that's my question. Legally, can the Irish state ask my foreign bank to tell them how much money I have and force me to pay a tax based on that? I highly doubt it... First of all I'm 99.99% sure my bank wouldn't communicate this kind of information. Plus what of the fact that part of the money I owe wasn't earned while working in Ireland?

So you may think the Irish government has this kind of power, but I seriously doubt it, unless you have proofs to show. And just to make sure it's clear, I'm talking about a bank that doesn't have any business in Ireland whatsoever.

99nsr125

Bens wrote: »

Following on from our plans to discontinue AVCs

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72235668#post72235668

we also want to make sure our savings current and future are out of reach of the government. It is an issue of security now. I am not convinced at all that any of my savings are safe. Or that any of my pension fund will be there when I retire.

I dont care about projected growth anymore. Only that the government now seem to think its OK to just seize peoples savings. I thought pensions were supposed to be untouchable - to allow people to plan. Obviously not. If they do it once, you can be damn sure they'll do it again. And it will be deposits next.

So basically we are stopping putting anymore money into pensions. We want to move savings away. And we are lookign for proven ways to do this.

I dont think just putting money in a foreign bank account will be enough. They can still get it.

Has anyone got any knowledge on how to protect savings from the Irish government? If so it would be great to hear it.

As a last resort we will emigrate, so we are out of reach.
And I used to think you only had to emigrate if you lost your job and couldnt get another !!!

The headline rate of DIRT is now 30% (effective 27% for most accounts)
so 0.6% on pensions is very minimal considering the reliefs still in place.

I have a private pension before people ask.

There's tax free savings accounts in the UK but you have to be resident as far as I remember.

Your options are switzerland etc, try LGT Bank of Liechtenstein
they have a "branch" in Dublin

Previous posts have recommended commodities but that's a hell
of a rollercoaster ride and directly related to dollar printing

Diarmuid

99nsr125 wrote: »

The headline rate of DIRT is now 30% (effective 27% for most accounts)
so 0.6% on pensions is very minimal considering the reliefs still in place.

It's not tax relief, it's tax deferral.

99nsr125

Diarmuid wrote: »

It's not tax relief, it's tax deferral.

In fairness that's a worst/laziest case scenario

Jesus Wept

99nsr125 wrote: »

The headline rate of DIRT is now 30% (effective 27% for most accounts)
so 0.6% on pensions is very minimal considering the reliefs still in place.

This is a complete misrepresentation.

DIRT is charged on the interest earned.
The pension levy is taken off the capital.

Eddie Hobbs will explain better I imagine:

http://www.eddiehobbs.com/_blog/EddiesBlog/post/Today_is_Theft_Tuesday/

RATM

Sorry to jump on this thread but I have the same query as the OP- I need to move money out of here for peace of minds sake, and fast. I had looked at an Investec account and changing the currency to Norwegian Krona or Swiss Francs. But now Im thinking that ANY account based in Ireland, regardless of the currency it is in is not safe- the government can get at it once it is on Irish soil.

So I am really in need of a safe bank and a safe currency in which to place it in.

I'm willing to fly to Switzerland or elsewhere to facilitate this as it is my life savings and I plan to buy a house once I feel the market has bottomed (probably not for at least 2 yrs). I'd prefer to do the process from Ireland but will go abroad to sign forms if necessary.

I didn't trust the FF government and should have done something about it then but now after 10 weeks of FG/Labour I don't trust them either- sad but true.

edit- just spoke to Investec here in Dublin- even they can't guarantee what is or isn't going to happen in the event of a government raid on peoples savings, regardless of what currency it is held in. Learnt that you can open a non-resident account in the UK where the British government guarantees it up to STG£85k. Guy on the phone said that they've been getting more and more calls about this sort of thing since Xmas. Seems to me the run on the banks is well and truly underway, the only people not saying so are the media.

OfflerCrocGod

Get gold, ingest it and drive to the airport and buy the first ticket out of the country, it's the only hope the country has. Leave the family behind it's too late for them.

Chipboard

I am shifting our savings out of this God forsaken country next week. Partly because I think Ireland will exit the Euro soon and partly because of the recent theft of part of my pension savings by the Government I helped to elect. Given that its very likely that the country's finances will get worse, its reasonable to predict that our savings will be next.

Depositing funds in the Irish office of a foreign owned bank here is pointless because if we exit the EURO it is likely that all Euro's held in Irish accounts will be force converted to our new currency (say the punt nua). I think eveyone accepts that if we go back to a currency other than the Euro, the next step will be to devalue, and you will then lose a substantial amount of your savings.

I have decided to open a EURO account in a European country. I'm going out to do this next week. I will of course declare the interest I earn on these deposits and pay tax here on it but as God is my witness, if the Government decides to levy peoples savings I will not pay and I'm fully willing to do jail time if required.

BrianD3

Lots of similar threads on this. I can understand why people are worrying but it should be said that there are individuals out there, including public figures who may gain from panic and people moving money out of deposit accounts.

For instance, one of the people shouting loudest about the pension levy and how "your deposits could be next" is Eddie Hobbs. Eddie Hobbs, who in his blog mentions buying gold and from a particular company (Goldcore.ie) There's also a nice photo of and quote from Eddie on Goldcore's website.

Ask yourself if there is a possible vested interest here. Also, the less said about Eddie's previous investment advice on his TV shows, the better. If in 2006 you had a million quid in cash to invest and followed his property leveraging/gearing strategy, you'd now be sitting on negative equity of several million quid.

Dr. Constantin Gurdgiev has an connection with Columbanus - a Swiss asset management company. Next time he is on the TV predicting Armaggeddon and you find yourself thinking about hopping on a plane to Switzerland with your money in a suitcase, bear this in mind.

The Irish Indepedent recently has a positive article on gold and quoted a mining company executive as saying it could go to $5000 an ounce.

IMO there is now great potential for the fearful, relatively uninformed investor to make a monumental f*ckup by investing in something without knowing enough about it and being influenced by advice which may not be in their best interest.

Personally I have just today purchased an An Post savings bond for 30k. This may or may not turn out to be one of the above monumental f*ckups.

99nsr125

The-Rigger wrote: »

This is a complete misrepresentation.

DIRT is charged on the interest earned.
The pension levy is taken off the capital.

Eddie Hobbs will explain better I imagine:

http://www.eddiehobbs.com/_blog/EddiesBlog/post/Today_is_Theft_Tuesday/

Eddie Hobbs is not the messiah and nobody is but I'll run some numbers to demonstrate why I think it's still minimal.

I have yet to see the published bill that will give legal effect to the levy
but will assume it applies to the capital and gains in pensions so a
gross of 0.6% on total fund.

Pension tax reliefs may be cancelled out when it matures and is drawn down giving a savings account and low yield fund equal standing.

Base of 100 in a savings account at 4% gross less DIRT gives 102.8
equivalent to a 1.1% levy on total fund.

People seem very exercised about this but pensions remain an extremly
good investment.

When VAT is increased to 23% that'll be annoying!

PennyLane88

Is it just bank savings, or are credit union savings unsafe as well?

Hal Emmerich

PennyLane88 wrote: »

Is it just bank savings, or are credit union savings unsafe as well?

Credit Unions put there Money in AIB I believe.

Jesus Wept

99nsr125 wrote: »

Eddie Hobbs is not the messiah and nobody is but I'll run some numbers to demonstrate why I think it's still minimal.

I have yet to see the published bill that will give legal effect to the levy
but will assume it applies to the capital and gains in pensions so a
gross of 0.6% on total fund.

Pension tax reliefs may be cancelled out when it matures and is drawn down giving a savings account and low yield fund equal standing.

Base of 100 in a savings account at 4% gross less DIRT gives 102.8
equivalent to a 1.1% levy on total fund.

People seem very exercised about this but pensions remain an extremly
good investment.

When VAT is increased to 23% that'll be annoying!

At what point did I say that Eddie Hobbs is the messiah?

99nsr125

The-Rigger wrote: »

At what point did I say that Eddie Hobbs is the messiah?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOuWWzP7wl0&feature=related

Not relevent but never ceases to be funny.

Tech3

If the government took deposits then it would signal a serious run on the banks all over europe.

I will judge first on what happens to Greece over the coming months before I decide what to do with my savings. Default or debt restructuring is coming sooner for them and may occur in the weeks ahead.

helimachoptor

Guys, a question. Say you get a euro bank draft from AIB/BOI etc for say €50k. Then if Ireland does withdraw from the Euro and get the Punt back up and running. If you presented this draft in say France would you actually get your €50k or would it be a % based on the conversion rate to the new punt?

sorry if this is a stupid question

later12

helimachoptor wrote: »

Guys, a question. Say you get a euro bank draft from AIB/BOI etc for say €50k. Then if Ireland does withdraw from the Euro and get the Punt back up and running. If you presented this draft in say France would you actually get your €50k or would it be a % based on the conversion rate to the new punt?

sorry if this is a stupid question

I am guessing there might be some problem in clearing that money order, given that the Irish banks might refuse to clear it on their side. The safest method of transfer would be cash based, because at least one would be guaranteed that cash would be accepted.

However, your €50k would be worth a lot less, in either situation, than it was worth at the moment of withdrawal, i.e. the euro would fall relative to other currencies. That is why many Irish people seem to be denominating their money in Swiss Francs. That in itself is not without risk, as the Swiss Franc is as expensive as ever before and may only lose its value, should the European crisis stabilise.

Poncherello

Put your money in Rabobank, its simple and safe.
As for all those moaning about their pension fund being taxed wake up you have been paying ridiculous fees to your pension fund manager for years.
Why havnt you been complaing about that.

carrick76

Poncherello wrote: »

Put your money in Rabobank, its simple and safe.
As for all those moaning about their pension fund being taxed wake up you have been paying ridiculous fees to your pension fund manager for years.
Why havnt you been complaing about that.

Is money really safe in Rabobank if we default?

danbohan

Poncherello wrote: »

Put your money in Rabobank, its simple and safe.
As for all those moaning about their pension fund being taxed wake up you have been paying ridiculous fees to your pension fund manager for years.
Why havnt you been complaing about that.

indeed , but of course you were paying for some really fantastic management by those guys , who else could have got you growth rates less than 1% per year over 10 years ,well worth paying for !

irishh_bob

Poncherello wrote: »

Put your money in Rabobank, its simple and safe.
As for all those moaning about their pension fund being taxed wake up you have been paying ridiculous fees to your pension fund manager for years.
Why havnt you been complaing about that.

you do realise that having savings in rabbo wont shield you from the effects of a euro exit , you need your money outside the state to escape that outcome

CiaranC

irishh_bob wrote: »

you do realise that having savings in rabbo wont shield you from the effects of a euro exit , you need your money outside the state to escape that outcome

Why would a dutch bank change money on deposit with them into a foreign currency? Any more than a swiss one would?

irishh_bob

CiaranC wrote: »

Why would a dutch bank change money on deposit with them into a foreign currency? Any more than a swiss one would?

kcb are south african , ulster bank are british , nationwide uk are british , did you think that having savings with any of those institutions would make you exempt from a currency devaluation in the event of us leaving the euro , those banks might be foreign owned but they are registered in this country , big difference between having an account with rabbo in dublin and rabbo in amsterdam which is why irish citizens are not allowed open an account with rabbo in the netherlands

CiaranC

irishh_bob wrote: »

big difference between having an account with rabbo in dublin and rabbo in amsterdam which is why irish citizens are not allowed open an account with rabbo in the netherlands

What is the difference exactly? What is the name of the bank in Ireland where these funds are deposited then?

irishh_bob

CiaranC wrote: »

What is the difference exactly? What is the name of the bank in Ireland where these funds are deposited then?

lets cut to the chase here , in the event of ireland exiting the euro and if thier is an overnight adoption of a new currency , do you believe that savings held in rabbo will be treated differently than savings in the likes of bank of ireland or AIB ?

CiaranC

Why do you keep responding to my questions with more questions?

If you have specific and definitive information on what would happen to Rabo deposits in the case of Ireland leaving the Euro, or the Euro breaking up, then please post it.

I have a HSBC account in the France and HSBC are also registered here, does this mean that those funds would be converted to Irish Punts also? What about my accounts in Australia and Canada? These were funded from my Irish account from "Irish" Euros which were earned while i was domiciled in Ireland.

irishh_bob

CiaranC wrote: »

Why do you keep responding to my questions with more questions?

If you have specific and definitive information on what would happen to Rabo deposits in the case of Ireland leaving the Euro, or the Euro breaking up, then please post it.

I have a HSBC account in the France and HSBC are also registered here, does this mean that those funds would be converted to Irish Punts also? What about my accounts in Australia and Canada? These were funded from my Irish account from "Irish" Euros which were earned while i was domiciled in Ireland.

you seem to think that banks with international branches all share the same policy , i.e , if ireland leave the euro , savings in rabbo in austria must share the same fate as savings in dublin , hsbc does not have the same presence in ireland as they do in the uk , they are not a high street bank and only cater to big money investors and your the one who seems sure that savings in rabbo are in a different category than the likes of bank of ireland , if this is indeed the case , i for one am over the moon as i have quite a bit of savings with rabbo , i do diffrenciate between rabbo and the likes of AIB in terms of what would happend were thier a default but i would have been of the view that a euro exit would effect savings in rabbo in exactly the same way as any other institution which is registered in this state

CiaranC

irishh_bob wrote: »

your the one who seems sure that savings in rabbo are in a different category than the likes of bank of ireland

What the hell are you talking about? When did I say that?

Ive simply asked if anyone has more information on the topic at hand. Its clear you dont have any, so lets leave it there.

irishh_bob

CiaranC wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about? When did I say that?

Ive simply asked if anyone has more information on the topic at hand. Its clear you dont have any, so lets leave it there.

post no. 32 gives that impression

Raskolnikov

CiaranC wrote: »

If you have specific and definitive information on what would happen to Rabo deposits in the case of Ireland leaving the Euro, or the Euro breaking up, then please post it.

I have emailed Rabobank on this, they were unable to given an assurance on Irish deposits remaining in Euro in the event of Ireland leaving the Eurozone.

This is a highly unlikely scenario. There have been no reports in Ireland or any other country within the EU about leaving the Eurozone, which was also confirmed by the EU President Jean-Claude Trichet in the Irish Times earlier this year. But if this were to happen then most likely there would be legislation put in place to guide the transfer from Euro to the currency that Ireland would adopt. We would also have to evaluate what would be the best course for RaboDirect and its customers in this situation, keep balances in Euro and/or transfer to the new Irish currency. Again this is an very unlikely situation.It is important to remember that your funds are held within the Rabobank Group covered under te Dutch Deposit Protection Scheme, so it does not matter whether your funds are held in Ireland or Australia for instance, as they are still covered.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72035831&postcount=5

Jim2007

I would suggest that your basic assumption that Euro accounts outside of Ireland not being touched is unrealistic! You have to remember that there is no defined method for a country to leave the Euro zone and some kind of agreement between all members would have to be reached before it could happen. Countries remaining in the zone will be very concerned about preventing the flight of capital to the zone, so you can bet there will be something in there to minimize it. Most likely that agreement would be in the form of an EU regulation so that all states have to comply with it.

Jim

SGKM

Interesting discussion, it is something that has also crossed my mind. In relation to the OPs thoughts about the security of money in Irish banks and the possibility of the government taking it...

I agree with previous posters about pensions being "saving" for the future and I think the levy is another disgraceful inequitable attack on the (middle class) private sector PAYE worker... AGAIN

But there is a massive difference between pensions and cash deposits, as in the stability of our financial system is not directly and entirely reliant on the size and stability of our pension private sector pension funds, where as the stability of our financial system is entirely reliant on the size and security of the cash deposits in our banks.

If the government attempted any sort of tax on capital savings, the outflow of deposits from Irish banks would be catastrophic. Who in their right mind would leave money deposited in an Irish bank? The banks are desperate for deposits as it is. For that reason I cannot see it happening.

I would be more worried about some kind of "burden sharing" with deposits over a certain sum contributing to the capital raising requirements of the banks. But politically this may not be fasible without signifcant contributions from bond investors.

the watchman

Just heard Eddie hobbs explain the intended raid on pensions. First time I understood.
He said email the President to try and get a judicial review.
Doing that right now.... tell everyone.

webmaster@president.ie

Bens

I got confirmation of a deal from my bank today.
I called them before and asked them if we paid all of the money we currently pay into our pensions as overpayments off our mortgage would they do us a deal.
I outlined what I wanted.

Eventually, today they got back to me. For every €2000 (about what the two of us were paying into pension, well a bit more since no tax relief now that we've stopped it) we pay off our mortgage they will give us an extra 10%.

Basically monthly €2000 overpayments become €2200 overpayments.

It was Ulster Bank (formerly First Active) if anyone is interested in trying this themselves.