Afghanistan & Pakistan

CommuterIE

Now that the war in Iraq is now winding down with the transfer of power... the focus is on Afghanistan and Pakistan. The current Afghan war is justified and anyone who argues against that is ignorant at best and stupid at worst.

What do you think of Pakistans utter incompetence? They must have known Osama was there.... should there be some kind of retaliation?

conscious

Retaliation??

Their retaliation should be to march out of the countries they marched into to find 'the man in the cave'.

silja

CommuterIE wrote: »

What do you think of Pakistans utter incompetence? They must have known Osama was there.... should there be some kind of retaliation?

Knowing he was there and knowing where exactly he was at any given time/ being able to do something about him are two completely different things. Could the Pakistani government have done more, and would the previous government have done more? Probably. The current Pakistani government isn't exactly a cohesive force, and "punishing" the country for a possible, unprovable delayed notification would be both wrong and very difficult to justify. Additionally, Obama- rightly or wrongly- wants to pull back the military, so he is unlikely to start new wars unless seriously provoked. Of course, if anything happens around the 10th anniversary of 9/11, as some documents found at Osama's compound have hinted, the US President may have to/ be pushed to by popular opinion.

Overheal

Osama was in a mansion within spitting distance of the Pakistani equivalent to West Point Academy. I don't see how the Pakistani Government could not have known he was there.

nyarlothothep

Love how the OP put in an insult into the first post to scare off dissenting voices. What do you want OP an echo chamber? Are you so insecure in your own convictions that you simply must have everyone agree with you? I find that to be stupid and ignorant at best.

Einhard

CommuterIE wrote: »

Now that the war in Iraq is now winding down with the transfer of power... the focus is on Afghanistan and Pakistan. The current Afghan war is justified and anyone who argues against that is ignorant at best and stupid at worst.

Anyone who starts a thread in a forum for debate, and insults anyone who might have the temerity to offer an opposing opinion, before it's even offered, is ignorant at best and stupid at worst. Seriously, how do you hope to have a proper debate on something, when you start off in such a moronic manner?

HavingCrack

Justify the current Afghan war to me OP.

From what I can see it has been a massive waste of money, equipment and morale for all the states involved in the occupation. It has also cost nearly 2,500 lives for the coalition with 16,000 or so wounded, the Afghan army and police have suffered 9,000 dead while estimates of civilian casualties range from 15,000 to 30,000.

The original aim of the war was to capture Osama Bin Laden and dismantle the Al-Qaeda command structure to prevent further terrorism. Bin Laden fled to Pakistan and eluded death or capture for a decade while Al-Qaedas central structure merely fragmented into many smaller groups that are inspried by Bin Ladens ideology that have carried out attacks in Istanbul, London, Madrid, Sharm El Sheikh and Bali to name just a few. These resulted in the deaths of hundreds of civilians.

The Taliban have now re-surfaced in Afghanistan and de facto control large swathes of the country. It is a war without end. Did the United States ever have a coherent plan of action laid out for Afghanistan? The country is effectively a failed state at this stage with rival warlords controlling their sections of the countryside. It is as bad as if not worse than Somalia.

The whole idea of invasion was a fcuking disaster from the moment it occured.

mgmt

The Americans brought down the Taliban government in a month or two after 9/11 using a couple thousand Special Forces. They then made the mistake they always make, they stayed. Now they are policing a civil war with over 100,000 troops (including Irish soldiers) and forcing a corrupt and ineffective government onto a rural tribal based community. The overthrow of the Taliban government was fully justified, what they're messing at now is not.

Chuck Stone

mgmt wrote: »

The Americans brought down the Taliban government in a month or two after 9/11 using a couple thousand Special Forces. They then made the mistake they always make, they stayed. Now they are policing a civil war with over 100,000 troops (including Irish soldiers) and forcing a corrupt and ineffective government onto a rural tribal based community. The overthrow of the Taliban government was fully justified, what they're messing at now is not.

Or if they're staying at least make a real good go of it. Literally park hundreds of thousands of coalitions soldiers in Afghanistan. Pour billions into development of infrastruce, schools, services and security.

I know there is no will for this now but when they did go in they might have had a chance imo.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/05/13/confessions_of_a_vulcan

Einhard

mgmt wrote: »

The Americans brought down the Taliban government in a month or two after 9/11 using a couple thousand Special Forces. They then made the mistake they always make, they stayed. Now they are policing a civil war with over 100,000 troops (including Irish soldiers) and forcing a corrupt and ineffective government onto a rural tribal based community. The overthrow of the Taliban government was fully justified, what they're messing at now is not.

But would there have been much point in deposing the Taleban, only to withdraw immediately, and allowing Mullah Omar to waltz right back in? And with AQ alongside him potentially.

mgmt

Einhard wrote: »

But would there have been much point in deposing the Taleban, only to withdraw immediately, and allowing Mullah Omar to waltz right back in? And with AQ alongside him potentially.

They installed the Northern Alliance and backed them up with boots on the ground. They could have just left the special forces in Afganistan to train up the new army and to coordinate air support. Just like what is happening in Libya.

HavingCrack

mgmt wrote: »

They installed the Northern Alliance and backed them up with boots on the ground. They could have just left the special forces in Afganistan to train up the new army and to coordinate air support. Just like what is happening in Libya.

The Northern Alliance are just as bad as the Taliban and don't let US propaganda decieve you otherwise. The Northern Alliance is made up of warlords who only began cooperating with each other because the Taliban forces had begun defeating them one by one. The routinely murdered and raped men, women and children and shelled civilians before they were forced into their northern pocket

Look at Ismail Khan, the US 'ally' in Herat. He is a drug trafficker, murderer, attacks jounralists, condones acid attaks on women etc.

While I doubt the ordinary Afghan loved the Taliban they didn't want the same old warlords who had devastated the country back in power again.

Furthermore comparing a country as backward as Afghanistan to Libya is pointless.

Einhard

mgmt wrote: »

They installed the Northern Alliance and backed them up with boots on the ground. They could have just left the special forces in Afganistan to train up the new army and to coordinate air support. Just like what is happening in Libya.

The reason that US and NATO forces are still in the country is because the significant numbers on the ground couldn't contain the Taliban fight back, so I'm not sure how a much smaller force would have been more advantageous in that regard, especially if their primary role was to train a new army.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

The new government of Afghanistan aren't exactly a shining example of democracy and tolerance. Many of the most horrific Taleban laws have remained.

jackiebaron

CommuterIE wrote: »

Now that the war in Iraq is now winding down with the transfer of power... the focus is on Afghanistan and Pakistan. The current Afghan war is justified and anyone who argues against that is ignorant at best and stupid at worst.

What do you think of Pakistans utter incompetence? They must have known Osama was there.... should there be some kind of retaliation?

Anyone who believes Osama was killed in a raid this year is ignorant and best and stupid at worst.

Chuck Stone

jackiebaron wrote: »

Anyone who believes Osama was killed in a raid this year is ignorant and best and stupid at worst.

Conspiracy theory forum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Overheal

Even Al Qaeda admits the man is dead, not sure what more proof you require.