Paddy Power T's & C's

JonnyScience

I'm afraid this is a long one. I will explain the scenario in simple terms first and then show a chat transcript with Paddy Power live help.

Basically this is what happened:
I placed a bet around 2.30am this morning. The odds were deemed to be a mistake by Paddy Power. I was sitting an examination today so did not have time to be online. They said they sent me an e-mail which stated I could void my bet (as the operator said in the transcript) - I did not receive this e-mail. I also did not receive a notification on my Paddy Power account that an error had occurred. Upon checking my bet receipt in my account tonight the odds still stated 9/4 and 5/4. They settled the bet at 1/100 and 1/200 odds (significantly less money returned to me as a result).



The above image shows my settled bet. The above bet should have returned around €973 euro at the above odds but as you can see I only received €135 euro.

I never accepted, nor was I notified, of a new price for the above bet. I was essentially forced to take lesser odds as a result of their mistake - a bet I certainly would not have taken had I been given the choice.

Below is the transcript and thanks a million if you can read it because I realise it is long.


Ana has joined this session!
Connected with Ana
Welcome to Live Help, my name is Ana. How can I help you today?
I had a bet on the darts and was paid out at around 1/66 instead of what i backed at which was around 7/1
there was a price error on the market and the bets have been settled at the correct price. Did you received an email from us?
no i didn't receive anything
i would rather have voided the bet than risked 133 euro for 2 euro
One moment please
Laura we emailed you at 14.04
I received no e-mail
Nor did I receive a message to my paddy power account which would have been more appropriate
we sent you an email at xxxxx@gmail.com
I checked my e-mail account and have just double checked. I just checked my junk e-mail also and there is no e-mail from paddy power. Also it should have been messaged to be in my paddy power account. I would not risk such a substantial sum of money to win 2 euro
Given the choice I would have voided the bet instead of risked such a figure for such a negligible amount
Not only that but I was sitting an examination earlier and had no access to my email account - but there was no e-mail there regardless
Unfortunately the bet cannot be voided now as it has already been settled. We could have voided the bet if you contacted before 7 but not now
Laura according to the rules we can settled the bet at the correct price
Why 7? The event started at 8. That is irrelevant. The bet has won. How is it acceptable that I take a price given on the market and then have to take a much lesser price as a result of an error on your behalf? I would not have any qualms if the bet had been voided. I do have a problem with the bet being taken at ridiculously short odds without me accepting those odds being offered. The bet won so it is not about the money. It is the fact that I was forced to take lesser odds than were offered to me and received no warning
(ii) Where a blatant error is made in transmission on any event on which we are Live Betting (e.g. the book priced to less than 105%) bets will be settled at the correct price at the time at which the bet was placed.
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/help

"Paddy Power reserves the right to correct any obvious errors and to void any bets placed where such have occurred. "
Also the bet wasn't placed during live betting so that rule doesn't apply to me.
We cannot allow for mistakes, nor accept responsibility for any errors or omissions in respect of the announcing, publishing, or marking of prices, runners, times or result, despite every effort to ensure their accuracy. Paddy Power reserves the right to correct any obvious errors and to void any bets placed where such have occurred. Should funds be credited to a client's account in error, it is the client's responsibility to notify Paddy Power of the error without delay. Any winnings subsequent to the error and prior to the notification of Paddy Power, whether linked to the error or not, shall be deemed invalid and returned to Paddy Power.
Due to the PDC website displaying the players in the incorrect order on their website for the Webster v van Barneveld and Taylor v Whitlock Premier League matches tonight there are a number of bets that will have to be settled at the correct price should they end up winning. Can the customers involved be contacted and informed of this and be offered to have their bet voided should they so wish if they contact us before 19:10 this evening.
Again, the above rule you have stated says that you have the right to void the bets, not force me to take odds that I did not accept.
One moment while I find the rule
You have stated that I should have contacted before 19:10 this evening, however, I received no notification as I have already said. I'm sure you can check the messages in my Paddy Power inbox as this is your website and you will see that I have zero messages and did not receive any messages today. Also, I received no e-mail even though you say you sent one. If I had received an e-mail then I would have voided the bet like I have said already.
We have the confirmation of an email sent to you
Also please stop quoting rules that do not apply to me as this is a waste of my time. I realise this isn't your error however I shouldn't have to read various rules which are not applicable to me
it does apply, one moment
If there are any blatant errors in prices transmitted bets will be settled at the correct price at the time of acceptance or the Starting Price (where applicable) whichever is the greater.
Can I have a senior customer care e-mail address that I can contact? I find it unacceptable that I was forced to accept odds on a bet without my consent.
support@paddypower.com
"at the time of acceptance" - I didn't accept the 'correct odds'
I simply placed a bet on the darts at the odds I was offered. Upon checking my account I realised that I had been paid out on odds which I did not accept
I understand your frustration but unfortunately the bets have been settled at the correct price and we have had all the day to void them but now it is too late
Also my betting receipt had odds of 9/4 and 5/4 when I checked it at around 8 pm tonight.
Why didn't the odds on my bet receipt change then? The odds even after one person had won still stated the odds that I had accepted. Upon being paid out I received much less than I should have. Again, I would have had no problems voiding the bet given that there was an error in the pricing. I'm fully aware of that rule. I don't think it is acceptable that I was forced to take odds which I did not accept.
because the error was detected after the bet was placed
You say I had all day to void them but like I said I was 1) had an examination until this evening and 2) received no notification of any kind
Laura we did sent you an email and we do not know if you are in an exam
That's fine but then why not void the bet if the bet was 'invalid'? I shouldn't have to take odds that I did not accept. I obviously placed the bet because I thought it was worth betting on at that price. If I was offered a price of 1/100 and 1/200 respectively then obviously I would have not accepted the bet.
Is it not in your rules that you would void a bet? There seems to be 2 rules: 1. you void the bet and 2. I accept the correct odds. I didn't accept the new odds as I was not offered them. In this scenario it would have been more appropriate to simply void my bet.
because you may still want it and that is why we offered the two options before 19.10
So when I did not respond it was decided that I had to take the new odds without accepting them?
yes
Would it not be wiser to simply void the bet given that the customer did not accept the new odds?
Well as I said it depends, if we void the bets the customers may argue why we have voided the bets
I think it is an unacceptable way to treat a customer. I should not be forced to take odds that I have not accepted especially given that odds are effectively subjective.
Unfortunately everybody has their own opinion
The reason I think that Paddy Power didn't void the bets is because it suited them in this case. They stood to win big if there was an upset but would lose a minimal amount if there was no upset; which luckily for me there wasn't.
I understand but we did give you an option
That's the thing - I received no e-mail, no notification on Paddy Power and even if I had I wasn't available in time to reject these new odds that were forced upon me.
If it was a paddy power related issue then why wasn't I notified in my Paddy Power account?
As I told you before we did send it
That's great but I did't get any e-mail. Good for those that did. Not only that but even if I had been sent the e-mail I was sitting an examination which meant I would not have even been able to void the bet if I had received the e-mail
Laura I understand your point and it is not that I do not believe you but we did sent the email and we do not have to know that you are doing an exam. Unfortunately the bet will stand as it is.
Is there anything else I can help you with?
That doesn't answer my question as to why it wasn't voided. I didn't accept any new odds. Therefore, the bet should have been voided. You can help me by giving me the contact information of someone in a senior position of paddy power so I can take the issue further as I will not let it go. It's wrong to force people into accepting a bet they didn't take. I will be contacting IBAS on the issue, also. I will also be writing an article about this in the Munster Express as this is no way to treat customers and given that Paddy Power is not a monopoly I will be advocating people use another bookmakers who do not mess around their customers.
May I have your permission to use extracts from this transcript for publishing?
Laura you can write an email to support@paddypower.com. The answer to your question is "If there are any blatant errors in prices transmitted bets will be settled at the correct price at the time of acceptance or the Starting Price (where applicable) whichever is the greater." And no, you do not have my permission to publish this chat in a newspaper
That's fine. I don't need your permission I was just being polite. That rule doesn't apply because it says "at the time of acceptance" - I accepted no change to my original bet and wasn't informed about any 'blatant errors'.
I know, but I could take actions too. From our system you were informed
Your system is Paddy Power. My notifications are still zero. I received none. You can't take any actions against me, publishing a chat transcript is not illegal. If this doesn't reflect badly on Paddy Power you should have no issue with me publishing it.
ok
Is there anything else I can help you with today?
No, that is all.
Enjoy the rest of your evening.


Bolded type = Paddy Power, non-bolded = me.

I am wondering if this is legal? If it is legal it seems a pretty crap way to treat customers.

Thanks to all who read.

Im Only 71Kg

i've encountered this many times with powers. they're a disgrace. but you'll never see the cash im afraid. betfair...is the only solution.

JonnyScience

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

i've encountered this many times with powers. they're a disgrace. but you'll never see the cash im afraid. betfair...is the only solution.

I work with Powers as little as possible due to things like this. The above is a particularly bad one though and I'm wondering if it is legal at all?

I mean it is obvious that they didn't void the bet due to the fact that they stood to win a lot of money but would lose a negligible amount themselves if the bet actually came in, which it did luckily enough. I didn't accept any new odds on the bet therefore from my understanding it should have been voided. The bet receipt also has "bet has been voided" in the bottom corner but it wasn't. I don't even care that I didn't get the money - if they had voided the bet I would have accepted it because it is part of their terms & conditions. They accepted the bet however, just changed the odds on the bet even though they remained the same on my bet receipt and I received no e-mail.

vicwatson

What an arrogant little so and so, I'd deffo be on to the superiors about the issue and about the atttitude of their staff member.:mad:

JonnyScience

vicwatson wrote: »

What an arrogant little so and so, I'd deffo be on to the superiors about the issue and about the atttitude of their staff member.:mad:

I'd like to but she wouldn't give me any contact information for any of them :mad:

Also I want to stress that this isn't about the money. I have had bets voided before in similar circumstances, however, I have not had bets accepted that I was not made aware of. If the bet had lost I would have been out €133. I would never risk €133 for a €2 profit. The difference in price in their favour shows exactly why they kept the bets instead of voiding them, imo.

Delancey

OP - perhaps post your experience on the Gambling forum ? Folks there may have some insight as how best to proceed ?

JonnyScience

Delancey wrote: »

OP - perhaps post your experience on the Gambling forum ? Folks there may have some insight as how best to proceed ?

Thanks. I thought this would be more appropriate though as to do with the legalities of it.

The general opinion of the gambling forum is that Powers are con artists so thought I would chance here as well to see what people have to say about it.

It seems that they have 2 conflicting rules :
RULE 14
"We cannot allow for mistakes, nor accept responsibility for any errors or omissions in respect of the announcing, publishing, or marking of prices, runners, times or result, despite every effort to ensure their accuracy. Paddy Power reserves the right to correct any obvious errors and to void any bets placed where such have occurred. "

RULE 15
"If there are any blatant errors in prices transmitted bets will be settled at the correct price at the time of acceptance or the Starting Price (where applicable) whichever is the greater."

and thus can pick and choose as they like. This seems a bit unfair to me, especially given that the customer is roped into taking bets they do not want on behalf of Powers making the mistake. Pricing, while based on mathematics, is essentially subjective so I don't know where they draw the line.

RATM

OP I'm not 100% sure what way contract law would work in this situation. But a simple breakdown would be that you had an invitation to treat, i.e. the odds, you solidified the contract by spending money on those odds. PP clearly didn't deliver on their end of the contract. So the question arises- do Powers T&C's supercede contract law? Others here would be better disposed to answer that than myself.

If I were you I'd file a case in the Small Claims Court, using that transcript as evidence- it also explains your argument quite well and any judge would resonate sympathetically with the type of crap spouted out by call centers on their 'customers'. You need to have screen shots of your email inbox, bin and spam folders proving no email was sent. They most likely could get out of it if a 'reasonable effort' was made to inform you of the odds change, i.e. vai email. As to what is 'reasonable' is up to the judge, like if they sent an email 10 minutes before the event then that's hardly reasonable.

Anyway it'll only cost you €15 to take them to the small claims court so you've nothing to lose. The chances are that when PP see the court notification and know you're serious they'll then offer to settle up as sending a solicitor down there will cost them the guts of €400. At that point you'll be asking them for your €900 odd winnings and another €100 on your account as a good will gesture.

JonnyScience

RATM wrote: »

OP I'm not 100% sure what way contract law would work in this situation. But a simple breakdown would be that you had an invitation to treat, i.e. the odds, you solidified the contract by spending money on those odds. PP clearly didn't deliver on their end of the contract. So the question arises- do Powers T&C's supercede contract law? Others here would be better disposed to answer that than myself.

If I were you I'd file a case in the Small Claims Court, using that transcript as evidence- it also explains your argument quite well and any judge would resonate sympathetically with the type of crap spouted out by call centers on their 'customers'. You need to have screen shots of your email inbox, bin and spam folders proving no email was sent. They most likely could get out of it if a 'reasonable effort' was made to inform you of the odds change, i.e. vai email. As to what is 'reasonable' is up to the judge, like if they sent an email 10 minutes before the event then that's hardly reasonable.

Anyway it'll only cost you €15 to take them to the small claims court so you've nothing to lose. The chances are that when PP see the court notification and know you're serious they'll then offer to settle up as sending a solicitor down there will cost them the guts of €400. At that point you'll be asking them for your €900 odd winnings and another €100 on your account as a good will gesture.

Apparently they sent an e-mail at 2.10 and I had to respond to it by 7.10. I had an exam at 2pm which wasn't finished until 3.30pm. It takes ~ 40 minutes to get back from the venue + we lingered around after the exam talking about it which makes it 4.40 by the time I got home I'd guess. So I had 2 and a half hours at the very most to get online and respond to their e-mail. I didn't receive an e-mail though and the receipt in my account still had those prices on (I took pictures of this on my phone rather than screen grabs which can be altered much more easily). The fact that they didn't notify me through Paddy Power makes me a bit more suspicious. I don't see why they would send the mail externally when they have a messaging system in their own website.

I know that the bookies can void the bets in the case of a mistake. I agree with that. Mistakes do happen and I don't agree with people exploiting the mistake - the bookies are a business themselves after all. If my bet had been voided I would have had no issue what so ever - it has happened before and I was fine with it. The fact of the matter is that my bet receipt stated the odds and stated that I was receiving ~ €973 euro in return. But I actually only received €135 euro in return which is obviously a substantial difference. So essentially I was forced to take a bet I wouldn't have taken if I was given the choice, and I was forced to take that bet through their error and not my own. I bet on something at certain odds but instead they essentially said "sorry, mistake, you're taking these odds". I don't see how that is a fair service. I don't think it's right that they can force you into making a bet you don't want to make because they made an error. If they made an error they should rectify it.

If I had lost €133 euro and found out that I only stood to win €2 I would have been livid - I also would have looked like I was sour that I lost the bet and my argument wouldn't hold much creditability but thankfully it one. They're not the only bookies out there and as far as I'm concerned they've lost my business unless they rectify the situation but given that I will have to send heaps of e-mails to their support team I don't think that is a viable route of action.

swordofislam

Gambling debts are non justiciable they don't have to give you anything.

JonnyScience

swordofislam wrote: »

Gambling debts are non justiciable they don't have to give you anything.

http://www.ibas-uk.com/index.php

?

http://www.ibas-uk.com/adjudicationCase.php?adjudID=35

Similar situation to mine only that bet seems to have been placed in running (not 100% though) which makes it slightly different.

Can't see how I'm going to get anything out of them out of this tbh. A set of conflicting rules allows them to pick and choose with each situation. Won't be betting with them again.

Our man in Havana

Correct. All gambling contracts are void ab initio.

You can't do anything if a bookie refuses to pay out.

littlemac1980

I wouldn't have thought that the scenario you describe is what would be considered a 'blatant' or 'obvious' error. Maybe odds of 1000/1 or 500/1 might be such, but surely not the odds u betted at. I'd suggest that to a regular punter such a mistake isn't blatant, or obvious. So if that's the case PP wouldn't have the power under the contract (if its even a valid clause) to alter the odds.

I personally would not accept their interpretation of their rules.

Not sure about the justiciability of this contract. It's suggested by other posters that it isn't justiciable, I'd still pursue it to be honest, just to be sure.

Wolfe Tone

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Correct. All gambling contracts are void ab initio.

You can't do anything if a bookie refuses to pay out.

So whats to stop bookies simply refusing to pay if you get a big win? Just simply the possibility of bad press?

Our man in Havana

Yep. That is the only thing that would trouble them.

purpleglory

I can see why you are really annoyed in this instance but in my opinion you don't really have any leg to stand on. I don't work for powers but I do work in the industry and use powers regularly to hedge bets etc.

What they put up on their website was clear a palpable error and in 99% of cases such as these the customer is on a hiding to nothing if they decide to place the bet. If you win you will be paid out at the lower odds and if you lose you lose. The only way of a firm not discovering a "palp" and you getting paid on one is to place the bet in a shop and generally it is only with independent bookmakers that you might get away with it.

I agree that they should have emailed you and you should have evidence of such and if they didn't it really is bad form. But it does come back to the earlier point that they dont have to pay you out at the offered price. For example Man United are just under 2/1 to win the champions league at the minute. But if one of power's staff made a mistake and put up 20/1 by accident, every man and his dog would be lumping on them and powers or any other bookmaker would have a massive liability. They shouldn't have to honour this bet as it is clearly a mistake by one member of staff and was not intended to be offered.

When betting on the darts you obviously realised that they had put u the handicaps the wrong way around and decided to bet these. It was clearly a palp and they would never pay you out. I do agree though that it is bad form and a free bet or something similar might have been in order to ease customer realtions

littlemac1980

purpleglory wrote: »

I can see why you are really annoyed in this instance but in my opinion you don't really have any leg to stand on. I don't work for powers but I do work in the industry and use powers regularly to hedge bets etc.

What they put up on their website was clear a palpable error and in 99% of cases such as these the customer is on a hiding to nothing if they decide to place the bet. If you win you will be paid out at the lower odds and if you lose you lose. The only way of a firm not discovering a "palp" and you getting paid on one is to place the bet in a shop and generally it is only with independent bookmakers that you might get away with it.

I agree that they should have emailed you and you should have evidence of such and if they didn't it really is bad form. But it does come back to the earlier point that they dont have to pay you out at the offered price. For example Man United are just under 2/1 to win the champions league at the minute. But if one of power's staff made a mistake and put up 20/1 by accident, every man and his dog would be lumping on them and powers or any other bookmaker would have a massive liability. They shouldn't have to honour this bet as it is clearly a mistake by one member of staff and was not intended to be offered.

When betting on the darts you obviously realised that they had put u the handicaps the wrong way around and decided to bet these. It was clearly a palp and they would never pay you out. I do agree though that it is bad form and a free bet or something similar might have been in order to ease customer realtions

No, I disagree with you. The error made in this case does not appear to be palpable, it is not immediately obvious or blatant as claimed by Powers. That clause could only be invoked in a situation similar to the Common Law position where the party relying on the mistake could not have believed that an error had not been made. This, based on the facts I've heard, does not appear to be the case here. I understand why you'ld take the alternative view and side with Paddy-Powers, but this a question of Interpretation and to a punter, those odds would seem reasonable. Should you decided to take a case and prove the existence of an enforceable contract on the basis of the original odds, it would then be for them to prove the clause should apply.

As for the contract being unenforceable, with respect 'Our Man' I think suggesting that it is, and offering no reason as to why it wouldn't be enforceable is nonsense. Perhaps in a jurisdiction where gambling is illegal, that might be the case, but in Ireland Gambling is Legal and so I would proceed on the basis that the contract is enforceable until someone proves to you that it is not. I don't have time to research this point, I await proof I'm wrong.

darragh666

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1956/en/act/pub/0002/sec0036.html


There is no legal option available to you but I remember someone once saying there is an independent gambling board. The bookies usually follow what they say. They might have some advice on the gambling forum.

thingonmyback

'Our man' is spot on. You have no comeback.

I can appreciate that it's frustrating but to be fair to 'our man' he gave the only correct response to your query on the thread which you then labelled 'nonsense.'

purpleglory

My argument that it was clearly a palp and as such the bookmaker would be able to rely on such can be shown quite easily in my opinion. The handicaps were clearly placed on the wrong player and powers will just point to the fact that Taylor +4.5 was a bigger price than Taylor in the match odds alone. Therefore, how can a player be a bigger price on a + handicap than in the match odds.

They will note that the customer has looked at the match odds and the handicap and must have known that it wasn't correct, hence they placed the bet. "If something is too good to be true, it usually is". I have no doubt that it is a clear palpable error but I do thing your arguments re the contract may have some merit

littlemac1980

thingonmyback wrote: »

'Our man' is spot on. You have no comeback.

I can appreciate that it's frustrating but to be fair to 'our man' he gave the only correct response to your query on the thread which you then labelled 'nonsense.'

Two different people. I'm not the OP.

My issue was with the short answer. This is discussion forum, I read it to keep informed and broaden my knowledge. It wouldn't have taken long to refer to the section to which the poster responding to my post referred. It makes boards.ie better for everyone. That's why I thanked that poster.

littlemac1980

purpleglory wrote: »

My argument that it was clearly a palp and as such the bookmaker would be able to rely on such can be shown quite easily in my opinion. The handicaps were clearly placed on the wrong player and powers will just point to the fact that Taylor +4.5 was a bigger price than Taylor in the match odds alone. Therefore, how can a player be a bigger price on a + handicap than in the match odds.

They will note that the customer has looked at the match odds and the handicap and must have known that it wasn't correct, hence they placed the bet. "If something is too good to be true, it usually is". I have no doubt that it is a clear palpable error but I do thing your arguments re the contract may have some merit

And I understand your argument, but it is clear from OP's post that his argument is that the error wasn't palpable.

I've used Paddy-Power website. If it was me, I wouldn't have had a bookies knowledge, and wouldn't have be aware the odds were an error. As I said, if they were 100/1, sure I'd be suspicious then, but 5/4 and 9/4 (I think that's what he said the odds were) - only a veteran gambler or bookie could immediately spot they were a mistake. You'd also have to know who's favorite etc. I don't know my arse from my elbow when it comes to betting. I suspect many of pp's website users are the same.

I don't think the error alleged to have been made here would be palpable to the average user. Whether it was palpable to the average bookie or not is irrelevant.

swordofislam

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So whats to stop bookies simply refusing to pay if you get a big win? Just simply the possibility of bad press?

They regularly don't pay out. If you remember that Irish Open fiasco a few years ago for example. The Gibraltar based bookies don't even make excuses they just steal your money.

littlemac1980

littlemac1980 wrote: »

Two different people. I'm not the OP.

My issue was with the short answer. This is discussion forum, I read it to keep informed and broaden my knowledge. It wouldn't have taken long to refer to the section to which the poster responding to my post referred. It makes boards.ie better for everyone. That's why I thanked that poster.

The best answer to the OP's question is "the contract is void ab initio and you have no comeback". Why should he elaborate more?

MagicSean

Deleted User wrote: »

The best answer to the OP's question is "the contract is void ab initio and you have no comeback". Why should he elaborate more?

Makes you wonder why they even bother with terms and conditions.

littlemac1980

Deleted User wrote: »

The best answer to the OP's question is "the contract is void ab initio and you have no comeback". Why should he elaborate more?

Well this forum is for legal discussion. If a point is made there should some reference to legal authority or legal principles. Without that the post is just a conclusion, and since this isn't a forum for seeking advice, failing to discuss the issues, fails to serve the purpose of the forum, which is discussion.

Making a clear point as 'Our Man' did, but not adding any explanation, just causes other posters to go 'why?' and the OP to go 'why?'. If he has the knowledge to make the point then he is the person to explain the point, otherwise we can all make posts like 'Sorry but you're wrong.' or 'The OP is clearly right' or 'Clamping is illegal' and leave it at that. That would be nonsense in the context of a legal discussion forum.

littlemac1980

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

Makes you wonder why they even bother with terms and conditions.

And that's a relevant statement, because only by examining the entire contract would it be possible to determine if Section 36 applies to the entire contract, i.e. the clause re Errors is also void, or if the contract (including Paddy Power's obligation to pay) is of such a nature that s36 doesn't apply at all.

CiaranC

If there are any blatant errors in prices transmitted bets will be settled at the correct price at the time of acceptance or the Starting Price (where applicable) whichever is the greater.

This is a pretty standard rule for bookies OP.