Master of the High Court On Debt Suicides...

HellFireClub

It sounds like the harsh impact of the recession on ordinary people is starting to affect the conscious of at least one person in the legal profession:

The Master of the High Court today reiterated his calls for the introduction of debt forgiveness for people being pursued by banks, saying Ireland can’t afford any delays.
Edmund Honohan said this morning Ireland "can't wait" 18 months for new laws to be introduced and the banks should immediately "translate" debt that has been written down into debt forgiveness.
Meanwhile, the Irish Banking Federation has accused Mr Hononhan of using inflammatory language when suggesting that people were being driven to suicide by banks chasing debts. Mr Honohan yesterday said banks and creditors were pursuing debts to the bitter end.
He defended those comments, saying that once he had warned two years ago about a pending "avalanche" of repossessions, action had been taken and codes in relation to repossessions had been produced.
Asked on RTÉ's Morning Ireland whether his language had been "inflammatory", he said he did not accept this. He said there were probably people who had been suicidal yesterday, who were today "quite cheery because somebody has mentioned this".
He said he occasionally had to deal with widows where a person had taken their own life because of debts. There were also people coming before him who were being sued for a debt that had already been written off by the banks.
"All we need to do here is to cut through the Gordian Knot. There are a number of very practical suggestions - back of the envelope stuff, that could be legislated within a month."
Federation chief executive Pat Farrell said he rejected the comments on suicide "completely".
Mr Farrell told the same programme: “I reject the fact that those assertions are being made because at the end of the day I have to look at it from the perspective of my members.”
Mr Farrell said Mr Honohan had claimed two years ago that the State was facing an avalanche of repossessions but that this had not transpired.
“That event has not happened and the reason it has not happened is because my members, the mainstream banks, have engaged in extraordinary measures and forbearance across mortgage debt and personal debt to ensure that every effort is made to enable people manage their debts...”
Mr Farrell said the number of repossession had been very small and that a good portion of them were voluntary. He said people would find banks easy to deal with if approached early when they felt they were getting into difficulty with loan or mortgage payments.
Yesterday, Mr Honohan said Irish laws should be updated to protect people unable to pay their debts and to introduce a level of “debt forgiveness”. There was no reason why the 1850 Judgment Mortgage Act should not be changed to “put a brake” on the spiralling number of judgments, he said. This would be a way of introducing debt forgiveness.
The Master, who deals with a range of legal matters including applications to register and enforce judgments, made the remarks yesterday when dealing with several such cases. He noted that no laws had been introduced to implement recommendations by the Law Reform Commission in a 2004 report relating to debt relief, which included that a family home should not be sold on foot of a judgment mortgage unless such order was approved by a court.
The commission also recommended that a judgment creditor who registered a judgment mortgage over any other type of property would have to apply to court for the sale of the property.
It also suggested the courts should consider a range of matters when dealing with an application for sale of the family home of a judgment debtor, including the financial means of the judgment creditor and of the non-debtor owner and their family residing in the property.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0512/breaking18.html

thebman

I would have expected better from our politicians to ensure suicides over debts didn't become an issue.

Better protection needs to be afforded to those in heavy debt. For example, if they can't pay now, what is the point in badgering them every week for the rest of the month?

I still get letters in the door from someone that doesn't even live in the house anymore, almost daily and every now and again someone calls around the house demanding to talk to them and try to refuse to leave when I say they don't live there anymore.

HellFireClub

I think that if Ed Honohan (who incidently happens to be a brother of Michael Honohan of Irish Central bank fame), is aware of cases where people have lost their lives down to the relentless pursuit of debt by banks, as he says he is, then I think this is something that should be brought out to the very front of the national debate on what is going on in this country, we should hear from the families of those who have been bereaved through this approach to debt, the person who died should be given a voice of some sort, and the people who were involved in the pursuit of debt that ended up with a funeral, they need to be named publically I think.

I don't think it's good enough anymore that people can be bereaved in this manner and those who were involved in basically torturing a person into a situation of suicide, can remain faceless behind a legal system...

mrgaa1

unfortunately there are many people who have suffered and its about time this was aired. But it is a topic that not too many people like to talk about it and I can see the politicians running for cover as it would not be their cup of tea to discuss.

But the topic of debt forgiveness needs to be looked at. I know a few people who are stressing out as they are being pushed by various bodies and the stone is dry. Its not nice

RichardAnd

mrgaa1 wrote: »

unfortunately there are many people who have suffered and its about time this was aired. But it is a topic that not too many people like to talk about it and I can see the politicians running for cover as it would not be their cup of tea to discuss.

But the topic of debt forgiveness needs to be looked at. I know a few people who are stressing out as they are being pushed by various bodies and the stone is dry. Its not nice

Never mind debt forgiveness, the issue of suicide and mental health in general is like a taboo in this country. What is highlighted in this case is the tip of a very large and very repressed ice-berg.

HellFireClub

mrgaa1 wrote: »

unfortunately there are many people who have suffered and its about time this was aired. But it is a topic that not too many people like to talk about it and I can see the politicians running for cover as it would not be their cup of tea to discuss.

But the topic of debt forgiveness needs to be looked at. I know a few people who are stressing out as they are being pushed by various bodies and the stone is dry. Its not nice

I'm not trying to use emotive language here, but imagine being the mother or father of a 30 something year old male who had lost his job and ended up committing suicide over an issue like the pursuit of debt???

What I'm trying to say is that if it was an illness or a car accident, you could just put it down to circumstances beyond any control, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

But in the of someone tormenting you over debt, ringing you several times a day, calling to your house in the evening, threatening you with court orders and the theat of a jail sentence, (albeit an obviously empty one, given that people are no longer jailed over an inability to pay a debt), how on earth do you come to terms with the fact that the death was completely avoidable???

Laminations

mrgaa1 wrote: »

But the topic of debt forgiveness needs to be looked at. I know a few people who are stressing out as they are being pushed by various bodies and the stone is dry. Its not nice

Definitely need to have a way out for people but there is a line - like you said it is when the stone is dry. When a person has liquidated all assets, foregone trips abroad, family cars, and given up the family home to move to a rented council house, then they should be left alone as there is nothing more to give. Any unnecessary leniency will create a moral hazard. And we need to distinguish between debtors here and the pressures being put on them to comply. People are developing anxiety and panic disorders because of overzealous banks chasing them for small debts but there are still countless at the higher end of society not being pursued in any meaningful way.I don't think that people like Sean Fitzpatrick or Sean Quinn should be allowed to walk away from their debts until the stone is dry. There are different definitions of 'broke' in Ireland.

Laminations

I think the most shocking thing in Ed Honohans statement is the suggestion that banks may be pursuing debts that they have already written down or written off (and as such have been bailed out by the taxpayer). They would then essentially be getting paid back twice and causing torment and stress to families in the process.

hinault

Dodgy ground in my view.
How does one establish that there is a link between suicide and debt?
On what basis is this link established?

I'm not talking about the 1929 image of the guy jumping out the window of a skyscraper with a tickertape in his hand.
(I'm not being facetious. I'm just using this image as an example of clear suicide due to money reasons).

Het-Field

hinault wrote: »

Dodgy ground in my view.
How does one establish that there is a link between suicide and debt?
On what basis is this link established?

I'm not talking about the 1929 image of the guy jumping out the window of a skyscraper with a tickertape in his hand.
(I'm not being facetious. I'm just using this image as an example of clear suicide due to money reasons).

The Master's Court list is currently inundated with claims by entities against individuals who simply cannot repay their debts. It is common practice that the entire story is laid out in the Court, and no doubt this has included references to unfortunate individuals who took thier own lives.

These forms of Motions are heard on a daily basis by the Master. By extension, he will also hear the unfortunate facts around the same matters. Thus, he will be able to draw a link between the inability to repay debts, and the unfortunate decision of those who are labouring under debts to take their lives.

Laminations

Het-Field wrote: »

The Master's Court list is currently inundated with claims by entities against individuals who simply cannot repay their debts.

Sean Fitzpatrick has claimed he cannot repay his debts. While this is true, I don't think he has tried very hard or sacrificed enough to be let off the hook, he still lives in a mansion, his family members still benefit from the money he has given them for property and travel, he still manages to escape for a holiday. Saying that I think there are people who can pay more needs to be qualified with my belief that nobody should be sacrificing their lives over money.

Het-Field

Laminations wrote: »

Sean Fitzpatrick has claimed he cannot repay his debts. While this is true, I don't think he has tried very hard or sacrificed enough to be let off the hook, he still lives in a mansion, his family members still benefit from the money he has given them for property and travel, he still manages to escape for a holiday. Saying that I think there are people who can pay more needs to be qualified with my belief that nobody should be sacrificing their lives over money.

In fairness, the bulk of people who come before the Master's Court, or any Court, with financial difficulties, are not in Sean Fitzpatrick's league, nor do they have the enduring wealth which you allege of Mr Fitzpatrick.

hinault

Het-Field wrote: »

The Master's Court list is currently inundated with claims by entities against individuals who simply cannot repay their debts. It is common practice that the entire story is laid out in the Court, and no doubt this has included references to unfortunate individuals who took thier own lives.

These forms of Motions are heard on a daily basis by the Master. By extension, he will also hear the unfortunate facts around the same matters. Thus, he will be able to draw a link between the inability to repay debts, and the unfortunate decision of those who are labouring under debts to take their lives.

I accept what you're saying.
I have no doubt that there are dreadful accounts detailed in the courts and Edmund Honahan is better placed than most to be aware of those accounts.

My point is that there may be other underlying conditions that result in a person taking their own lives.

Het-Field

hinault wrote: »

I accept what you're saying.
I have no doubt that there are dreadful accounts detailed in the courts and Edmund Honahan is better placed than most to be aware of those accounts.

My point is that there may be other underlying conditions that result in a person taking their own lives.

I also accept that there may be other underlying causes. However, if the Master is speaking in terms of financial difficulties as the dominant reason for the unfortunate decision, then it is dfficult to disagree.

Laminations

Het-Field wrote: »

In fairness, the bulk of people who come before the Master's Court, or any Court, with financial difficulties, are not in Sean Fitzpatrick's league, nor do they have the enduring wealth which you allege of Mr Fitzpatrick.

Very true, which would suggest inequality in the system where the minnows get pursued and harrassed and the high fliers have extraordinarily long stays of execution

see also

Snippets include

A bench warrant was issued for his [Michael Lynn's] arrest as he had failed to turn up in court, but he could not be extradited as there were -- and still aren't -- any criminal proceedings pending against him.

---

Within days it emerged that another lawyer, Thomas Byrne, had racked up huge debts -- eventually reckoned at almost €60m -- by abusing the solicitor's undertakings system and stealing from banks and clients.

---

Other lawyers in trouble included a Dublin duo who avoided being struck off the solicitor's roll despite operating a €32m tax scam.

---

It is three years since High Court Judge Peter Kelly directed that files on Michael Lynn be sent to the garda fraud squad because the judge believed that they contained prima facie evidence of white-collar crime.
Yet not one rogue solicitor or any member of Ireland's banking elite has been prosecuted and convicted, raising serious questions about the ability of the State to prosecute white-collar crime.

Het-Field

Laminations wrote: »

Very true, which would suggest inequality in the system where the minnows get pursued and harrassed and the high fliers have extraordinarily long stays of execution

see also

Snippets include

Not necessarily. It would just suggest that there are fewer people who fall into Sean Fitzpatrick's league as an earner, and that the bulk of Irish society earned a relatively (to Fitzpatrick) modest crust.

mlumley

hinault wrote: »

Dodgy ground in my view.
How does one establish that there is a link between suicide and debt?
On what basis is this link established?

QUOTE]

How about the Clonmel man who had the court balif round to his office demanding money owed to the tax man. Come back at two and i'll give you a cheque the balif was told. He came back at two, and found the man had shot himself. This was reported in the Nationalist, and also national newspapers. Will that do for a link between suicide and debt?

RichardAnd

hinault wrote: »

Dodgy ground in my view.
How does one establish that there is a link between suicide and debt?
On what basis is this link established?

If you're going to ask that question, we might as well as a few othere;

• On what basis does unemployment link to suicide?
• On what basis does lonliness link to suicide?
• If a guy is in his 20s and can't get a girlfriend, if he kills himself, is it releated?

I could go on but you see my point. There are numerous reasons why someone might take their own life. I've heard of people doing it because they failed a test so it seems very reasonable to me, the suggestion that debt is condusive to suicide.

hinault

RichardAnd wrote: »

If you're going to ask that question, we might as well as a few othere;

• On what basis does unemployment link to suicide?
• On what basis does lonliness link to suicide?
• If a guy is in his 20s and can't get a girlfriend, if he kills himself, is it releated?

I could go on but you see my point. There are numerous reasons why someone might take their own life. I've heard of people doing it because they failed a test so it seems very reasonable to me, the suggestion that debt is condusive to suicide.

:yawn:
suggest you read all of the posts before attempting to reply.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=72174006

hinault

mlumley wrote: »

hinault wrote: »

Dodgy ground in my view.
How does one establish that there is a link between suicide and debt?
On what basis is this link established?

QUOTE]

How about the Clonmel man who had the court balif round to his office demanding money owed to the tax man. Come back at two and i'll give you a cheque the balif was told. He came back at two, and found the man had shot himself. This was reported in the Nationalist, and also national newspapers. Will that do for a link between suicide and debt?

I remember that particular case and it was dreadful.

However I still hold to the point that high levels of debt are the cause of suicide, is open to debate in my opinion.

Laminations

Short answer about how we can be sure about the link of debt and suicide - correlational evidence. It does not prove causation but it is the best evidence we can hope to get with many socially harmful phenomenon where experimentation is impossible. In other words, the only way to be sure of a causal link is to take one group of people, drive them into debt and then compare their rates of suicide against a non-debt control group. You will not get ethical approval for such a study

Laminations

Slighly longer answer - although you would never be able to perform such a study on humans, studies on animals and learned helplessness can inform us as to a connection. Animals tht are deprived of resources and put under stress (similar to financial debt) will deteriorate health-wise and demonstrate symptoms akin to depression which is of course shown to be related to suicide.

dan_d

I think this is something that does need to be taken quite seriously.

It's more than just the debt. It's the unemployment and the loneliness that goes with it. When exacerbated by being hunted for debts you can't pay off....well, that may be enough to tip people over the edge.

You take yourself over to the "personal issues" forum and you regularly see threads about loneliness, or unemployment and loneliness. These are usually written by both men and women (often men though) from the ages of 19 to 40ish. I know it's not exactly a reliable statistics exercise to monitor them, but I, for one, see so many of them over there that I do often wonder what has become of our world. I've said it before - we have never been so in touch, yet so alone. I'm here, chatting away to you guys. Loads of contact, right? Wrong. I'm on my own, 90% of my waking hours for the last 9 months. It really, really gets to you, especially if you're someone who likes the company of other people. Which most people do. And I'm quite motivated, do my best not to sit around all day. But I still am finding is SO difficult.

Debt does not necessarily equal suicide. But I would imagine that it contributes a lot, especially if someone is in any way in a precarious state of mind already. And trust me, losing your job and being unable to find another puts you in a pretty precarious state of mind. I have been through a myriad of panic attacks in recent months myself, due to where I am, what I'm doing, what's not available, the lack of money - you name it, my brain has obsessively thought about it. And when you've got all day long to think about it, it's horrendous. Any little problem or niggling worry grows to gargantuan proportions.

It's the "unseen" side of unemployment. I've said it here before aswell - unemployment goes so far beyond losing a wage. It eats away at your self-confidence, your belief in yourself and the life you have. It makes you so lonely, makes you feel like crap, frustrated, so angry and resentful.All the stuff that the Gov doesn't want to hear (past and present), because let's face it, they might have to face up to the fact that they have f&*ked up so badly that it's impacted on people's mental health aswell as their bank balances. That's much harder to face than "we have a budget deficit problem". And for all they say they do understand - they haven't got the first notion of what it's like.

So to get back to the point at hand....I'd imagine his statement is based on seeing the stream of "small" debtors come through the courts everyday. Feck Sean Fitzpatrick, to be quite honest. The biggest thing that's been dented with him is his pride. It's one thing to pity yourself because you're dealing with NAMA; it's another thing to find yourself trying to put food on the table. The debt forgiveness/bankruptcy situation in this country is operating under an archaic system. As far as I'm concerned, one suicide due to debt or unemployment is too many....you don't make light of the situation until a suitable number of people have killed themselves for the rest of us to acknowledge there's a problem. There IS a problem. But nobody likes talking about it.

Mr. Presentable

So, if I stop paying my mortgage and in a couple of years threaten suicide, you'll absolve me of my debt? Hmmmmm


It is people's mental health that needs addressing. Not their debt. If a man will shoot himself over something he owes the Revenue chances are he will if his wife leaves him also.

I have the utmost sympathy for these people, but they are victims of themselves. When one reaches a desperate situation in a marriage, or with an addiction they get mental help, counselling, same solution applies here.

RichardAnd

hinault wrote: »

:yawn:
suggest you read all of the posts before attempting to reply.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=72174006

And I suggest you read mine for if you did, you might not have felt you have a right to respond to people in such a sarcastic manner.

You questioned the corelation between suicide and debt, I replied that there is no more evidence to suggest there is not one than there is for any other reason someone might take their own life.

The part of your post I omitted was a reference to the, wildly exagerated I might point out, suicides that occoured on black thursday which was of no use to the point I was making.

Laminations

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So, if I stop paying my mortgage and in a couple of years threaten suicide, you'll absolve me of my debt? Hmmmmm

No. And this is where we need to be careful about moral hazard. We should only excuse people of their debts when the stone is dry, and then we can let them start over. So when your assets are liquidated or seized, when your home is sold and you rent from the council and when you have given all you can, then you have given enough IMO, unless of course, as Justice Honohan suggests the bank was partly responsible for your predicament. Then some additional leniency should be shown and the bank should absorb some losses.

But it is undeniable that financial strain is linked to mental health regardless of individual differences. Everyone has a breaking point

HellFireClub

dan_d wrote: »

I think this is something that does need to be taken quite seriously.

It's more than just the debt. It's the unemployment and the loneliness that goes with it. When exacerbated by being hunted for debts you can't pay off....well, that may be enough to tip people over the edge.

You take yourself over to the "personal issues" forum and you regularly see threads about loneliness, or unemployment and loneliness. These are usually written by both men and women (often men though) from the ages of 19 to 40ish. I know it's not exactly a reliable statistics exercise to monitor them, but I, for one, see so many of them over there that I do often wonder what has become of our world. I've said it before - we have never been so in touch, yet so alone. I'm here, chatting away to you guys. Loads of contact, right? Wrong. I'm on my own, 90% of my waking hours for the last 9 months. It really, really gets to you, especially if you're someone who likes the company of other people. Which most people do. And I'm quite motivated, do my best not to sit around all day. But I still am finding is SO difficult.

Debt does not necessarily equal suicide. But I would imagine that it contributes a lot, especially if someone is in any way in a precarious state of mind already. And trust me, losing your job and being unable to find another puts you in a pretty precarious state of mind. I have been through a myriad of panic attacks in recent months myself, due to where I am, what I'm doing, what's not available, the lack of money - you name it, my brain has obsessively thought about it. And when you've got all day long to think about it, it's horrendous. Any little problem or niggling worry grows to gargantuan proportions.

It's the "unseen" side of unemployment. I've said it here before aswell - unemployment goes so far beyond losing a wage. It eats away at your self-confidence, your belief in yourself and the life you have. It makes you so lonely, makes you feel like crap, frustrated, so angry and resentful.All the stuff that the Gov doesn't want to hear (past and present), because let's face it, they might have to face up to the fact that they have f&*ked up so badly that it's impacted on people's mental health aswell as their bank balances. That's much harder to face than "we have a budget deficit problem". And for all they say they do understand - they haven't got the first notion of what it's like.

So to get back to the point at hand....I'd imagine his statement is based on seeing the stream of "small" debtors come through the courts everyday. Feck Sean Fitzpatrick, to be quite honest. The biggest thing that's been dented with him is his pride. It's one thing to pity yourself because you're dealing with NAMA; it's another thing to find yourself trying to put food on the table. The debt forgiveness/bankruptcy situation in this country is operating under an archaic system. As far as I'm concerned, one suicide due to debt or unemployment is too many....you don't make light of the situation until a suitable number of people have killed themselves for the rest of us to acknowledge there's a problem. There IS a problem. But nobody likes talking about it.

Pretty much identical to my own situation until very recently and I'm by no means out of the woods yet. Until you have experienced the abject hopelessness of unemployment, I think you have no idea how hard things can ultimately end up for a person and how far down you can fall in terms of self belief and confidence, as a person.

I recently made the point to a friend that you often hear the term or phrase, "they had a nervious breakdown"... I came up a similar phrase that described what I experienced after 2 odd years of unemployment, which is the notion of a "confidence breakdown"...

I have to say well done to somone like Ed Honohan who has a visibility that the rest of us don't have, into things like suicides and absolute despair, probably along the lines of homeslessness and family's being separated, all down to the ruthless and agressive pursuit of debt through the legal system, against people who are simply victims of the greed of other people such as those who are responsible for the state of our economy.

HellFireClub

RichardAnd wrote: »

And I suggest you read mine for if you did, you might not have felt you have a right to respond to people in such a sarcastic manner.

You questioned the corelation between suicide and debt, I replied that there is no more evidence to suggest there is not one than there is for any other reason someone might take their own life.

The part of your post I omitted was a reference to the, wildly exagerated I might point out, suicides that occoured on black thursday which was of no use to the point I was making.

It's this very lack of evidence that I think is being used to hide the full effect of this horrible problem. Of course when someone cannot cope with debt and demand for debt to be paid when it simply cannot be paid, they often don't put pen to paper and challenge the behaviour they are experiencing, either through the Financial Services Ombudsman's office.

dissed doc

There is literally a gazillion pieces of research linking major life stressors with suicide. It's referred to as an Adjustment Reaction and also Acute Stress Reaction.

It is the unexpected and life-changing implications of an event, not the specifics of break up with partner / death of wife / illness diagnosis / suddent financial problems / etc.,. . And, how a person responds to these events, may be entirely different to you, so don't judge people based on what you feel is an acceptable level of distress. To them, it may clearly be way more significant. Judging people's difficulties and how they respond to them negatively cpmpared to yourself is an incredibly biggoted attitude, IMO.

thebman

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So, if I stop paying my mortgage and in a couple of years threaten suicide, you'll absolve me of my debt? Hmmmmm


It is people's mental health that needs addressing. Not their debt. If a man will shoot himself over something he owes the Revenue chances are he will if his wife leaves him also.

I have the utmost sympathy for these people, but they are victims of themselves. When one reaches a desperate situation in a marriage, or with an addiction they get mental help, counselling, same solution applies here.

You know what you need to get counselling and medication. Money... ...

Kinda of the problem in these cases.

If someone has no way to pay and can demonstrate this, a freeze needs to be put on their repayments until their life is looking up IMO.

Balmed Out

I think debt forgiveness is not the way forward. I have every sympathy with people in this situation but that doesnt make it right to simply wash your hands of your responsibilities. The issue has however being ignored for too long and will get far worse as interest rates rise.


We need to allow those in negative equity to transfer it to a new mortgage, ie they can sell a house if they need to and put the outstanding balance to their new mortgage.

We need to examine the possibility of the banks taking equity (and rent) fro those unable to pay.

We need to examine the possibility of allowing a freeze on payments for those who have lost all earnings and have no savings.

However all these measures should only be done with punitive sanctions so that thay are only taken up by those with no choice.

The residential property market wont start to get going again until people stop hoping to chance their arm on a bit of debt relief.

irishh_bob

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So, if I stop paying my mortgage and in a couple of years threaten suicide, you'll absolve me of my debt? Hmmmmm


It is people's mental health that needs addressing. Not their debt. If a man will shoot himself over something he owes the Revenue chances are he will if his wife leaves him also.

I have the utmost sympathy for these people, but they are victims of themselves. When one reaches a desperate situation in a marriage, or with an addiction they get mental help, counselling, same solution applies here.

cause and effect , its the debt pressure which causes the mental health problems , people dont encounter mental health issues for no reason

thebman

I think the banks response to this completely disgusting.

Essentially along the lines of Mr.Honohon's language was too emotive.

Too emotive???

People are committing suicide due to the pressure these leaches on our society are placing on them. Many whose tax payments have probably been going to bailout the banks that are driving these people to suicide.

If you anyone had any doubt the government need to step in and force these people to stop trying to get blood from a stone, it should be removed when they come out with such idiotic statements hoping to kill the story and hoping that the stigmata about suicide being discussed openly in our society stops this gathering pace.

liammur

HellFireClub wrote: »

It sounds like the harsh impact of the recession on ordinary people is starting to affect the conscious of at least one person in the legal profession:

The Master of the High Court today reiterated his calls for the introduction of debt forgiveness for people being pursued by banks, saying Ireland can’t afford any delays.
Edmund Honohan said this morning Ireland "can't wait" 18 months for new laws to be introduced and the banks should immediately "translate" debt that has been written down into debt forgiveness.
Meanwhile, the Irish Banking Federation has accused Mr Hononhan of using inflammatory language when suggesting that people were being driven to suicide by banks chasing debts. Mr Honohan yesterday said banks and creditors were pursuing debts to the bitter end.
He defended those comments, saying that once he had warned two years ago about a pending "avalanche" of repossessions, action had been taken and codes in relation to repossessions had been produced.
Asked on RTÉ's Morning Ireland whether his language had been "inflammatory", he said he did not accept this. He said there were probably people who had been suicidal yesterday, who were today "quite cheery because somebody has mentioned this".
He said he occasionally had to deal with widows where a person had taken their own life because of debts. There were also people coming before him who were being sued for a debt that had already been written off by the banks.
"All we need to do here is to cut through the Gordian Knot. There are a number of very practical suggestions - back of the envelope stuff, that could be legislated within a month."
Federation chief executive Pat Farrell said he rejected the comments on suicide "completely".
Mr Farrell told the same programme: “I reject the fact that those assertions are being made because at the end of the day I have to look at it from the perspective of my members.”
Mr Farrell said Mr Honohan had claimed two years ago that the State was facing an avalanche of repossessions but that this had not transpired.
“That event has not happened and the reason it has not happened is because my members, the mainstream banks, have engaged in extraordinary measures and forbearance across mortgage debt and personal debt to ensure that every effort is made to enable people manage their debts...”
Mr Farrell said the number of repossession had been very small and that a good portion of them were voluntary. He said people would find banks easy to deal with if approached early when they felt they were getting into difficulty with loan or mortgage payments.
Yesterday, Mr Honohan said Irish laws should be updated to protect people unable to pay their debts and to introduce a level of “debt forgiveness”. There was no reason why the 1850 Judgment Mortgage Act should not be changed to “put a brake” on the spiralling number of judgments, he said. This would be a way of introducing debt forgiveness.
The Master, who deals with a range of legal matters including applications to register and enforce judgments, made the remarks yesterday when dealing with several such cases. He noted that no laws had been introduced to implement recommendations by the Law Reform Commission in a 2004 report relating to debt relief, which included that a family home should not be sold on foot of a judgment mortgage unless such order was approved by a court.
The commission also recommended that a judgment creditor who registered a judgment mortgage over any other type of property would have to apply to court for the sale of the property.
It also suggested the courts should consider a range of matters when dealing with an application for sale of the family home of a judgment debtor, including the financial means of the judgment creditor and of the non-debtor owner and their family residing in the property.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0512/breaking18.html

Reminds me of bertie ahern's dreadful comments of a few years back. I always felt he got away too lightly with that.

dan_d

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

So, if I stop paying my mortgage and in a couple of years threaten suicide, you'll absolve me of my debt? Hmmmmm


It is people's mental health that needs addressing. Not their debt. If a man will shoot himself over something he owes the Revenue chances are he will if his wife leaves him also.

I have the utmost sympathy for these people, but they are victims of themselves. When one reaches a desperate situation in a marriage, or with an addiction they get mental help, counselling, same solution applies here.

I didn't say that, and if that's how it came across, it wasn't supposed to.

I've said before I don't think there should be debt forgiveness, in that you just take someone's debt away. But there has to be something more put in place and quickly.

Counselling and mental help costs savage money in this country. I've gone looking for it quite recently. And on that note, from the couple of enquiries I made, a lot of counsellors and psychologists are operating what they call "sliding scales".....they have low rates if you're in trouble money-wise. Some (very few) are allowing people to pay what they can afford. But their "low" rates are 35 - 40eur for a session, up to the normal rate of 50 - 70eur a session. 40eur a week is a big chunk of money if you've no income. Even the fact that they have changed their rates is an acknowledgement that they have more and more people coming to them looking for help due to stress and problems relating to unemployment....be they marriage problems, money problems, or just desperately needing someone to unload on. I have a close relative who is a GP and he has people coming into his office everyday just to talk about the stress they are under. He can't do anything for them but listen, and sometimes that's all people want.

We can't just allow people to walk away from debts, but nor can we ignore the fact that there is a problem for many people, that many are struggling, and that it does impact on people's mental health immensely.As someone said before, it's hard to really understand until you've been there.

AlekSmart

HellFireClub wrote: »

It sounds like the harsh impact of the recession on ordinary people is starting to affect the conscious of at least one person in the legal profession:

The Master of the High Court today reiterated his calls for the introduction of debt forgiveness for people being pursued by banks, saying Ireland can’t afford any delays.
Edmund Honohan said this morning Ireland "can't wait" 18 months for new laws to be introduced and the banks should immediately "translate" debt that has been written down into debt forgiveness.
Meanwhile, the Irish Banking Federation has accused Mr Hononhan of using inflammatory language when suggesting that people were being driven to suicide by banks chasing debts. Mr Honohan yesterday said banks and creditors were pursuing debts to the bitter end.
He defended those comments, saying that once he had warned two years ago about a pending "avalanche" of repossessions, action had been taken and codes in relation to repossessions had been produced.
Asked on RTÉ's Morning Ireland whether his language had been "inflammatory", he said he did not accept this. He said there were probably people who had been suicidal yesterday, who were today "quite cheery because somebody has mentioned this".
He said he occasionally had to deal with widows where a person had taken their own life because of debts. There were also people coming before him who were being sued for a debt that had already been written off by the banks.
"All we need to do here is to cut through the Gordian Knot. There are a number of very practical suggestions - back of the envelope stuff, that could be legislated within a month."
Federation chief executive Pat Farrell said he rejected the comments on suicide "completely".
Mr Farrell told the same programme: “I reject the fact that those assertions are being made because at the end of the day I have to look at it from the perspective of my members.”
Mr Farrell said Mr Honohan had claimed two years ago that the State was facing an avalanche of repossessions but that this had not transpired.
“That event has not happened and the reason it has not happened is because my members, the mainstream banks, have engaged in extraordinary measures and forbearance across mortgage debt and personal debt to ensure that every effort is made to enable people manage their debts...”
Mr Farrell said the number of repossession had been very small and that a good portion of them were voluntary. He said people would find banks easy to deal with if approached early when they felt they were getting into difficulty with loan or mortgage payments.
Yesterday, Mr Honohan said Irish laws should be updated to protect people unable to pay their debts and to introduce a level of “debt forgiveness”. There was no reason why the 1850 Judgment Mortgage Act should not be changed to “put a brake” on the spiralling number of judgments, he said. This would be a way of introducing debt forgiveness.
The Master, who deals with a range of legal matters including applications to register and enforce judgments, made the remarks yesterday when dealing with several such cases. He noted that no laws had been introduced to implement recommendations by the Law Reform Commission in a 2004 report relating to debt relief, which included that a family home should not be sold on foot of a judgment mortgage unless such order was approved by a court.
The commission also recommended that a judgment creditor who registered a judgment mortgage over any other type of property would have to apply to court for the sale of the property.
It also suggested the courts should consider a range of matters when dealing with an application for sale of the family home of a judgment debtor, including the financial means of the judgment creditor and of the non-debtor owner and their family residing in the property.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0512/breaking18.html

It is noteworthy that this opinion is coming from one of the Legal Professions top achievers.

Edmund Honohan is not a man given to wild eyed flights of fancy,nor is he a media-savvy headline chaser.

Instead he is,and has been for some time,attempting to highlight some of the more absurd elements of how our legal system works in this area.

He has a highly incisive mind,in pure legal terms but also a manages to empathise with those who find themselves drawn down into the mire by the current circumstances.

For example his highlighting of the Law Reform Commissions 2004 report,is if nothing else,a very good pointer to a very lethargic approach towards Law Reform in general.

I rather think that Edmund Honohans main targets here were not actually bankers as typified by the somewhat knee-jerky Pat Farrell,but instead the quiescent Politicians who saw no need to heed the warnings which were coming thick n fast even back then.

Well done Edmund I say !!

thebman

For people who may have missed this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0512/debt-business.html#article

The Master of the High Court, Edmund Honohan, rejected criticism that remarks he made yesterday that banks were driving some debt-ridden borrowers to suicide were inflammatory.

The Irish Bankers' Federation said the comments were too emotive.

Speaking on RTE radio, Mr Honohan said that he had met the widows of people driven to take their own lives over relatively small debts.

He also said that a 'fresh start' scheme of debt forgiveness should be introduced for people

Quite simply unacceptable for someone to accuse someone who is raising concerns over peoples lives and health as being too emotive IMO.

dan_d

As someone said earlier, Bertie said it a number of years ago (which I thought was SO far out of line...), and not once did anybody say anything about him being too emotive. In fact, people laughed about it, which I thought was completely disgraceful.

Yet this individual says this in all seriousness to highlight a problem and that's the response he gets..

Well, I suppose when you look at who's responding...they're hardly going to admit that their actions are driving people to depression or possibly taking their own lives, are they?

Noreen1

Laminations wrote: »

I think the most shocking thing in Ed Honohans statement is the suggestion that banks may be pursuing debts that they have already written down or written off (and as such have been bailed out by the taxpayer). They would then essentially be getting paid back twice and causing torment and stress to families in the process.

+ 1000

PeteHeat

There are many different types of debt, revenue, credit cards, bank loans, car loans, credit union, mortgage etc

For many of the above I don't agree with debt forgiveness along the lines of the debt will go away forever, what would be wrong with a stay on the debt until the individuals circumstances change ?

Such a system could be put in place very quick and I expect fairly easy using a system similar to MABS for clarification of the individuals situation, it could also be done without total loss of Dignity for the persons involved.

Revenue are working for you and me, it should not be in their interest to send in the Sheriff or debt collector for debts that may be uncollectable in the short term, after all we are tagged with a PPS number so the State is the first to know of a change in circumstances (try opening a bank account).

General debt such as credit cards, car loans etc are easy to park, try getting a loan if you missed two payments to any financial instituitation in the past five years, you won't get it or if you do the interest rates can be frightening.

Mortages are secured on the property, making life more difficult than necessary is of no benefit to either the borrower or the lender (majority of lenders appear to be us now).

Negative equity is nothing new to this country my family home dropped 50% within two years of buying it in the 1980's, I was lucky enough to be earning enough to meet the crazy high interest rates which peaked around 14% :eek:

The vast majority of people want to clear their debts within the agreement, for those who genuinely can't meet their payments or obligations today we must have a system where they can meet the day to day priorities first and repay what they can reasonably afford without punitive penalties.

All borrowers have responsibilities, but the lenders also have responsibilities as personal information has been available to all lending institutions through their information exchange system (Credit Bureau) and the fact that their customers are human must be taken into account.

Food, clothing, a home to live in must be priorities and seen to be the basic standard of living which is where something along the lines of a current statement of affairs must be accepted by the lenders and if necessary legislation brought in to force them to stand back unil the persons situation changes.

Personal debt can be parked at say the current ECB borrowing rate, this may give hope to the lender for example unlike the 19% charged by credit cards, when the person does get back on their feet they can resume repayments and will obviously be more cautious in their future borrowing habits.

Mortgage debt can also be parked by adding the portion of missed payments to the capitol or by extending the period of the mortgage maybe a combination of both.

There may be a minority who would abuse such a system however it can be set up in such a way that regular reviews would mean that by abusing the system the person is actually holding themselves back by refusing employment.

There must always be hope for the people who find themselves caught up in circumstances over which they have no control.

.

later12

thebman wrote: »

For people who may have missed this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0512/debt-business.html#article

The Master of the High Court, Edmund Honohan, rejected criticism that remarks he made yesterday that banks were driving some debt-ridden borrowers to suicide were inflammatory.

The Irish Bankers' Federation said the comments were too emotive.

Speaking on RTE radio, Mr Honohan said that he had met the widows of people driven to take their own lives over relatively small debts.

He also said that a 'fresh start' scheme of debt forgiveness should be introduced for people

Quite simply unacceptable for someone to accuse someone who is raising concerns over peoples lives and health as being too emotive IMO.

To be honest, it has first to be accepted that there is a serious issue both in relation to mental health in Ireland, and the stigma surrounding mental health difficulties.

I'm not quite sure which we are seeing here - people simply being driven to depression and suicide by financial problems, or financial problems acting as an aggressor for an already underlying mental health problem. I would guess it is the latter, as opposed to the former.

There is probably not a single person reading this who has not been touched by suicide. And how many of us have stood around churchyards attempting to rationalize it? We say He was too stressed with exams/ his wife left him/ alcoholic/ drug abuse/ lost his job/ whatever. We seem to want to deflect the reason into something real and tangible when in fact, none of these things are real reasons for what may often be serious underlying mental health problems.

I will never forget as a seventeen year old sitting in a church pew with the priest eulogizing a suicide victim in my class saying that he 'wasn't happy', and 'just couldn't find happiness'. I didn't know much about mental health at that time, but I knew enough to know that Priest was talking through his hat. Mental health is a medical issue, not a philosophical one. By ignoring its physiological and biochemical nature, we are eroding the validity of those who suffer it as the unfortunate victims of an illness, just like a congenital disability or an acquired illness such as a cancer.

We also run the risk of eroding vigilance. As men and women we are aware that we need to check our body parts now and then for various lumps and bumps, but how many of us sit down and run over our mental health? How many of us, men perhaps in particular, are vocal about mental health awareness among our friends?

Banks and financial institutions do have a role to play in terms of how they deal with their debtors. But the Master of the High Court, well meaning is no doubt he is, is perhaps a little off the mark in planting the blame at their feet, anymore than he would be to blame the wives of divorced suicide victims distraught at their marital break up.

Mr Honohan mentioned that wives of suicide victims had remarked to him that their spouses' deaths arose from financial troubles. I would suggest to Mr Honohan that sometimes it is helpful for survivors themselves when they can rationalize the death in a simplified way, and put it in a box labelled 'cause'. Sometimes even blame helps them. But perhaps that is how the survivors in question manage to get out of bed in the morning and preserve their own mental health. Nevertheless, we should not be so quick to (over)simplify mental health deterioration in such terms, and draw what may be some questionable correlations which distract from the real issue of mental health awareness and the stigma surrounding it.

Somehow I think tackling those issues at the root may be more helpful in the long run than slowing the pace of legal proceedings

jmayo

RichardAnd wrote: »

Never mind debt forgiveness, the issue of suicide and mental health in general is like a taboo in this country. What is highlighted in this case is the tip of a very large and very repressed ice-berg.

Very true.

And something that has been striking me about this whole statement is where it is coming from and why.

Did we hear any judges, high court officals, or the like issue statements a few years ago about suicides ?
Or maybe had it something to do with fact it primarily just involved young single guys and not possibly reasonably rich middle class upto now successful guys ?
Call me cynical but some people are more important than others in this world. :rolleyes:

When ahern made his comments at a ICTU conference a lot of the people present laughed.
Was it something to laugh at at that stage ?

As for debt forgiveness, no freaking way.
As for allowing bankruptcy laws so that someone can restart business immediately no freaking way.
There are too many chancers out there who will run their companies into debt leaving others massively out of pocket to be allowed restart immediately.
And it doesn't matter what the law says about illegality of doing this, criminal prosecutions of white collar crime is pathetic in this country.