Learner legal?

celica1994

just wondering, is a honda shadow 750 learner legal?

unclebill98

Depends on weight and power etc. Post more info and the lads can help ya out.

celica1994

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/motorbikes/2042644 - 2000 honda shadow vt750, nice bike?

unclebill98

It sure is.

RRaff

I would say no. Did some digging into the specs of the bike and the power to weight is above 0.16kw/kg! For learner legal u need 25kw and 0.16kw/kg. The bike is coming in around 0.18kw.

cantdecide

31.4 KW / 225Kg = 0.14 power to weight. Let's not open the power/ weight can of worms.

My brother has a VT1100 restricted.

RRaff

I stand corrected, site I looked at had the Kw at 43 ( I believe that should have been HP) but regardless it is still 31.4kw of power so you'll need a restrictor for it which isn't so bad. Only really effects you on a motorway. My Gv650efi still gets up to 120km no problem with a kit in it. Best of luck.

celica1994

anyone know how much a restrictor costs to get fitted adveragly?

cantdecide

300 tops. Probably between 250 and 300 on average.

JohnnyCrash

RRaff wrote: »

I would say no. Did some digging into the specs of the bike and the power to weight is above 0.16kw/kg! For learner legal u need 25kw and 0.16kw/kg. The bike is coming in around 0.18kw.

I think you'll find that for learner legal it should be 25kw OR 0.16 kw/kg;)

Merch

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

I think you'll find that for learner legal it should be 25kw OR 0.16 kw/kg;)

I'm looking for a bike now myself, it needs to be learner legal, I didnt really want to reply when someone suggested not opening a can of worms as I guess this has been asked countless times, but I did think it was either total power OR power to weight ratio

So I assume I can have a more powerful bike but it needs to be heavier so that its less than .16kW/kg

RRaff

I think you'll find it's not. You must meet both criteria for the bike to be legal. Any motortax office, citizen information office, insurance company,driving instructor and Garda will tell you the same. I know because I asked them all when I was getting mine done as I originally thought the same. To restrict should be about €250 - €300 maybe a bit cheaper if outside Dublin but do not pay any more then that.

cantdecide

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

I think you'll find that for learner legal it should be 25kw OR 0.16 kw/kg;)

RRaff wrote: »

I think you'll find it's not. You must meet both criteria for the bike to be legal. Any motortax office, citizen information office, insurance company,driving instructor and Garda will tell you the same...

cantdecide wrote: »

Let's not open the power/ weight can of worms.

Depends who you ask. This a grey area. If you want to avoid trouble, restrict the bike. That's the only way of staying out of trouble for sure.

JohnnyCrash

The Irish Government gave it the following interpretation in the ROAD TRAFFIC (LICENSING OF DRIVERS) REGULATIONS, 1999. (S.I. No. 352 of 1999) Section 17, Part 2
(taken from: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/si/0352.html#partii-sec17) which reads as follows:

Motorcycle engine size restriction.
17. A person granted a provisional license for the first time on or after the commencement of these Regulations to drive vehicles in category A and who on obtaining a certificate of competency in that category is subsequently granted a driving license in that category, shall, until a period of two years after the grant of the latter license, be restricted to driving only those vehicles in the said category which have a power output not exceeding 25 kW or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg, or in the case of vehicles in the said category with sidecars, with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg.

RRaff

Not exceeding 25KW OR A power/weight ratio means both not that you can exceed one if you have the other. Granted they could have put the wording better, but to say otherwise is just wishful thinking and ultimately breaking the law. Nuff said.

Merch

JohnnyCrash wrote: »

The Irish Government gave it the following interpretation in the ROAD TRAFFIC (LICENSING OF DRIVERS) REGULATIONS, 1999. (S.I. No. 352 of 1999) Section 17, Part 2
(taken from: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/si/0352.html#partii-sec17) which reads as follows:

Motorcycle engine size restriction.
17. A person granted a provisional license for the first time on or after the commencement of these Regulations to drive vehicles in category A and who on obtaining a certificate of competency in that category is subsequently granted a driving license in that category, shall, until a period of two years after the grant of the latter license, be restricted to driving only those vehicles in the said category which have a power output not exceeding 25 kW or a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg, or in the case of vehicles in the said category with sidecars, with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16 kW/kg.

RRaff wrote: »

Not exceeding 25KW OR A power/weight ratio means both not that you can exceed one if you have the other. Granted they could have put the wording better, but to say otherwise is just wishful thinking and ultimately breaking the law. Nuff said.

I dont knowabout your interpetation RRAFF, OR means one or the other, AND means both, how can 25kw OR .16kW/kg mean both???? From what johnnycrash posted it seems it is one or the other. That wording implies only one thing, One or the other. If the wording is wrong thats another case but it cannot be interpreted any other way.

AgileMyth

RRaff wrote: »

Not exceeding 25KW OR A power/weight ratio means both not that you can exceed one if you have the other. Granted they could have put the wording better, but to say otherwise is just wishful thinking and ultimately breaking the law. Nuff said.

Speaking from a purely grammatical viewpoint 'or' can be interpreted either way in this situation. If indeed they meant that it must meet both criteria they should have used the word 'and'.

The wording of the regulations leaves it open to interpretation and, until such times as its been rectified, I'd be 100% happy to argue that in front of a judge if necessary.

Personally I'd interpret it as meaning one or the other anyways.

cantdecide

AgileMyth wrote: »

...I'd be 100% happy to argue that in front of a judge if necessary.

I'm far too lazy for that. I'd just restrict the bike.

AgileMyth

cantdecide wrote: »

I'm far too lazy for that. I'd just restrict the bike.

I'd be very surprised if it came to that. I'd be amazed if you didn't win it though.

Merch

AgileMyth wrote: »

Speaking from a purely grammatical viewpoint 'or' can be interpreted either way in this situation. If indeed they meant that it must meet both criteria they should have used the word 'and'.

The wording of the regulations leaves it open to interpretation and, until such times as its been rectified, I'd be 100% happy to argue that in front of a judge if necessary.

Personally I'd interpret it as meaning one or the other anyways.

I know your post essentially agrees with what some posters (including me ) have said but still OR can only be interpreted as either of the two options (in anything, not just this):rolleyes:

I was just looking this up in the meantime from the RSA


A person applying for a first-time motorcycle learner permit in category A is restricted to driving motorcycles with an engine power output not exceeding 25kW or with a power/weight ratio not exceeding 0.16kW/kg.
http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Motorcyclists/The-Motorcycle-Test/


I can see what someone meant when they said can of worms
I'd well believe some people/Gardai might say both but it seems pretty cut and dry to me once i read the extract from the statute book.

RRaff

You would think that after all these years of people debating this they would have corrected the wording by now to make it cut and dry. If it was me (which it was last Sep) i would just ring the powers that be and get the info straight from the horse's mouth. You could try argue in court but i doubt you'd win. You'll also find out when you get insurance (from quinn anyway) if u need it restricted or if your one of the unlucky souls that have been spot checked on the side of the road.

celica1994

im just wondering tho if i didnt restrict the bike how would i get caught out eg if i had an accident?

RRaff

Quinn will look for one before they insure you and I reckon most other company's are doing the same so u could get blocked there. If u fake a cert and have an accident it may but I'm not certin void your insurance which would be bad. I know in Cork the Gardai are doing spot checks on people. If they think it's not restricted they can have a bike cop take it for a drive to see or if u refuse they can take it to a garage to have it tested. Don't know if they're doing it else where but I would imagine it would only be a matter of time. Like I've said the best thing to do is contact the RSA and they will tell u if u need it in the first place.

celica1994

might look into the restrictor, does anyone know if a dragstar 650 is learner legal by any chance?

seanybiker

celica1994 wrote: »

might look into the restrictor, does anyone know if a dragstar 650 is learner legal by any chance?

I know a few people who rode one of them on a provisional liceense and never restricted them. Not 100% how legal that was though.

Catcher1977

I got a question guys, can you restrict any bike?

cantdecide

Catcher1977 wrote: »

I got a question guys, can you restrict any bike?

Effectively yes. Anything in particular you had in mind?

Catcher1977

cantdecide wrote: »

Effectively yes. Anything in particular you had in mind?

Nothing in particular yet. I got an XL125 about 8 months ago and it just died on me last week. Now, heartbroken and having sold it for parts, I'm starting to look around for another bike.

I'm kind of torn between the upright position of an enduro style bike (- even though I know I'll never take it over anything rougher than a secondary road -) and the lower sports bike position.

I was in the garage yesterday and was blown away by a guy on a KTM 990 adventure. It was pretty old, but in perfect condition. Really liked the look of it though.

cantdecide

What about a Kawasaki KLE 500? I think they're probably way more affordable than the ktm. I only ever saw one up close and I was really impressed by it.

Catcher1977

Had a look at the kawasaki on the internet. Not a bad bike, but I don't know. I really cheaped out on my first bike - €700 for an XL125 - and the thing gave me problems from day one. I feel like I owe it to myself to keep saving until I have enough money to get somethign really sweet.
I kind of have the luxury of time because I'm carpooling until the middle of next year.
Maybe I'll get a sportstourer....... [drool, drool]

AgileMyth

Would you consider a BMW f650? I absolutely love my Dakar. Restriction doesn't seem to affect it much either. If you could find one in your price range it'd be a great next step

carsQhere

This is the lowdown on 25Kw

http://www.magireland.org/information-sheets/25kw-license-facts/

celica1994

never much of a beamer lover

just wondering, is a 1980's honda goldwing 1000cc learner legal, surely the power to weight ratio must work out legal

AgileMyth

celica1994 wrote: »

never much of a beamer lover

just wondering, is a 1980's honda goldwing 1000cc learner legal, surely the power to weight ratio must work out legal

I've got it at 0.203 kw/kg.

So you're wrong on both your points there.:D

celica1994

that a yes or a no lol?

Wossack

hah, the old power to weight rule


If you can pick and choose which of the two conditions to comply to (which I dont believe is the case), why dont they make custom power restrictors. For example, the goldwing below, reducing the power by 10hp or so may bring within the p-t-w rule. Or sticking some cinder blocks in the panniers.


Anyway, good luck explaining statue laws etc on the side of the road. Guess you could always try to sue the state to get your impound fee refunded though.

JohnnyCrash

Wossack wrote: »

hah, the old power to weight rule


If you can pick and choose which of the two conditions to comply to (which I dont believe is the case), why dont they make custom power restrictors. For example, the goldwing below, reducing the power by 10hp or so may bring within the p-t-w rule. Or sticking some cinder blocks in the panniers.


Anyway, good luck explaining statue laws etc on the side of the road. Guess you could always try to sue the state to get your impound fee refunded though.

Why dont you believe it to be the case Its written in black and white

Wossack

So if you said to me 'please do not open that door or that window'

does that mean:

1. I'm ok to open that door, as long as I dont open that window at the same time
2. I'm ok to open that window, as long as I dont open that door at the same time
3. I'm not ok to open either

cantdecide

My mate drives a restricted ZX6. He bought a couple of months ago on the basis that it's restricted but the cert was missing. When I drove it, clearly, it was over-powered, but not full power. After going back to the seller with his concerns, he spoke the seller's mechanic to see what the story was. He was in the Portlaoise area.

The bike was actually restricted by way of a custom throttle stop. The bike is dyno'd to whatever the power to weight rule allows and the throttle is stopped at that point. The guy runs off a reading from the dyno and issues a certificate to show it conforms.

He was given a change of vehicle quote from Quinn on the basis that he had to supply a restriction cert. They wouldn't insure him without it. I thought there was no way that he'd get insurance from Quinn without an FI International cert let alone with a dyno print off and a "cert" from the mechanic. He got insurance from Quinn no questions asked. Apparently the guy is one of a small handfull of garages authorised by Quinn to issue certs on this basis. I think my mate's bike ended up being almost 40 BHP and Quinn have accepted it as being all above board.

Trust me - Neither me or my mate would want to get into license/ insurance strife but in fairness, my mate has satisfied himself that he's now cosher.

JohnnyCrash

Wossack wrote: »

So if you said to me 'please do not open that door or that window'


does that mean:

1. I'm ok to open that door, as long as I dont open that window at the same time
2. I'm ok to open that window, as long as I dont open that door at the same time
3. I'm not ok to open either

If I said to you"That door has to be open or that window has to be open"
.Does that mean they both have to be open?Dont think so!!!
Or in the context of "dont this or that" has a very different meaning in the context of "It has to have this or it has to have that" Agree?

Wossack

Agree with that alright

Interesting! Wonder where my confusion is coming from.. computer science boolean OR I think is mucking my head up in this instance..

celica1994

just wondering, can a restrictor be fitted to a 1980's goldwing?

cantdecide

celica1994 wrote: »

just wondering, can a restrictor be fitted to a 1980's goldwing?

Probably not exactly learner friendlt but have a look at the manufacturer's site for listings

http://www.fiinternational.com/

celica1994

seems to do restrictors for the 1000cc 1982 one, wonder if they can do it for any other cc goldwings

cantdecide

celica1994 wrote: »

seems to do restrictors for the 1000cc 1982 one, wonder if they can do it for any other cc goldwings

Loads of them are listed- 1000/ 1100/ 1500/ 1800