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What will it take to do 3.10 in Dublin ?

  • 10-05-2011 9:41pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭


    Ok guys...question aimed at the experienced marathon runners ...( no offence to anyone else by the way)
    I am 49 ...an experienced runner ...not brilliant but work hard at my training , coaching etc ...I have 6 marathons under my belt
    first when I was 20 in Dublin in 1982 and bad experience with about 4.10..
    played other sports till I was 40 ish ...went back to running and revisted the marathon by doing NY 2003 ( 3.39) Dublin 2004 (3.24) NY 2005 (3.24) ...I then suffered a serious bout of ME which knocked me out of running or excersise for almost two years but after a long rehabilitation I went to Chicago in 2009 ( 3.40) ...
    Last year for Dublin I prepared better than ever despite being 48 yrs of age ...I did 5 runs of over 2rs 30mins ( 19/20 mile runs) and at a peak was at 40 miles a week ... plenty of good solid hill work and speedwork , a bit of cross training ....
    It all paid off and I managed a PB of 3.20 which gave me a serious thrill especially after the illness ...I have never lost the competitive spirit

    So you experienced guys ...what will I change to shave another 10 minutes ...I know its in me ...it was in 2005 ( half marathon 84 mins ..5miles 29.41) ...

    suggestions please ....I dont think it possible to plough too many more miles into my week and at my age running 6 times a week is too much ...


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,608 ✭✭✭donothoponpop


    PVincent wrote: »
    suggestions please ....I dont think it possible to plough too many more miles into my week and at my age running 6 times a week is too much ...

    Very general advice: increase the intensity of your tempo/threshold/interval's. Maybe start bumping up the pace of your long runs a bit. Run a half in 1:30 6-4 weeks before the marathon, should give you a good indicator for the big day. I'd suggest you discount those previous times from 6+ years ago, they can't mean too much to your current ability.

    But you're asking the right questions at the right time, you're well-placed to begin the training, so you've an awful lot in your favour if you want to hit that goal. Desire counts for a lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    I'm not about to coach my coach, but judging by your pace in the shorter intervals you are well capable of it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    I agree largely with donothoponpop, however, in terms of Marathon training I disagree on the point of long run pace.

    In Marathon training, the long run is about time on your feet, NOT about pace. Too many people, both experienced and inexperienced, make this mistake and it leads to sub-optimal performance. 18 to 23 mile runs are tough and you need to recover from this while, at the same time, doing your tempo runs, intervals etc.

    If you do a long run and two speed sessions (do a tempo run every other week) then all the other runs are just filler/recovery runs. Btw, I recommend, where possible, doing the long run on grass. I know lots of people are going to disagree with me on this, but it works for me and lots of others. It isn't as hard on the body as roadwork - God knows, we do enough roadwork anyway, so there no reason to feel that doing your LSR offroad will hurt your raceday performance.

    I'd recommend that you start your Dublin training in earnest by the final week of July, i.e. target that weekend as your first LSR. I'd also recommend ramping up your training in the meantime, so that you are in a position to "jump off" your current training into Marathon training when the time comes.

    In ramping up, I mean get your LSR up to 14 or 15 before July, and maybe increase your mileage. I reckon that you need a minimum of 50 miles a week to get anywhere near your target.

    Most programs recommend that you concentrate your speedwork towards the later stages of your marathon training. I recommend the opposite - do it early on. My reasoning on this is twofold: High mileage & long runs hurt your speed, so you get better quality in early on; and you gain the benefits of the early speedwork during your entire training period, i.e. your sppedwork and recovery runs are faster, so training takes (slightly) less time.

    Finally, to rephrase a point I made earlier, recovery runs are just that - recovery runs - they are NOT pace runs or fast runs!

    PS: I'd be hoping to rub shoulders with you next October.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 954 ✭✭✭W.B. Yeats


    RayCun wrote: »
    I'm not about to coach my coach, but judging by your pace in the shorter intervals you are well capable of it

    I'm with Ray on this one- now where's the eating popcorn smiley?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,723 ✭✭✭MisterDrak


    PVincent wrote: »
    Ok guys...question aimed at the experienced marathon runners ...( no offence to anyone else by the way)
    I am 49 ...an experienced runner ...not brilliant but work hard at my training , coaching etc ...I have 6 marathons under my belt
    first when I was 20 in Dublin in 1982 and bad experience with about 4.10..
    played other sports till I was 40 ish ...went back to running and revisted the marathon by doing NY 2003 ( 3.39) Dublin 2004 (3.24) NY 2005 (3.24) ...I then suffered a serious bout of ME which knocked me out of running or excersise for almost two years but after a long rehabilitation I went to Chicago in 2009 ( 3.40) ...
    Last year for Dublin I prepared better than ever despite being 48 yrs of age ...I did 5 runs of over 2rs 30mins ( 19/20 mile runs) and at a peak was at 40 miles a week ... plenty of good solid hill work and speedwork , a bit of cross training ....
    It all paid off and I managed a PB of 3.20 which gave me a serious thrill especially after the illness ...I have never lost the competitive spirit

    So you experienced guys ...what will I change to shave another 10 minutes ...I know its in me ...it was in 2005 ( half marathon 84 mins ..5miles 29.41) ...

    suggestions please ....I dont think it possible to plough too many more miles into my week and at my age running 6 times a week is too much ...

    PV, Very similar aspiration to myself.

    Like you, I love the hard work, lets say Im also maturing nicely (45 for the next marathon) and looking for a 3:09 this year (off the back of 3:14 last year).

    This year, despite a brief injury, I have being doing mainly maintenance miles for the last few months, usually about 35 per week. However I’m going to step up the run volume next month, to probably top off around 50m per week.

    Going to couple that with some track sessions, and an interval effort every Thursday evening.

    LSR every Sunday of about 13 – 15 for the early summer. Planning longer LSR’s for Aug / Sept, of which 3 of those LSR are planned to be 22 miles +.

    Anyway also very good advice there from Condo, and also may see you in the +3:00 pen in October…


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    PV - First off congratulations on getting over ME. That takes huge mental discipline and getting to know your body really well both of which should help you to maximise your training.

    A basic plan to get to 3:10 or sub-3 would be something like:
    1 long run building up to 20 miles - more than that only really becomes appropriate when doing relatively high mileage
    1 medium long run building up to 14/15 miles - these two runs are the key to building endurance
    1 tempo/marathon paced run - alternate these from week to week building up to 10/12 for the marathon pace and 6 - 8 for the tempo run (10m - HM pace).
    As much easy paced running as you can fit in (never push the effort on these runs)
    Do a few strides a couple of times a week running about 100m focusing on relaxed form at a fast pace.
    Don't do any of the frist three runs on consecutive days and have a focus on just two of them each week (where the third is a relatively easy run to do).
    Try to do some of the long runs progressively maybe starting it out slow and picking it up a little every 5 miles or quarter way through the run. Where the long run is easier run for that week just take it easy the whole way round.
    Do some core work at least 3 times a week. Stretch when warm (not before runs) unless you're one of the slightly freakish people who never needs to stretch!

    If you want a little more detail then I'd recommend taking a look at the Pfitzinger and Daniels book - Advanced Marathoning. There's some pretty useful information in there about the purpose of the different types of runs and how to structure a periodised plan. They also have schedules in the back (don't use the schedules without reading the book though!) which you can use as is or adapt for your own use. The first plan is for 18 weeks, starting at 33 mpw and peaking at 55mpw. You can always adapt the schedule by reducing the length of the recovery runs if it's more than you can manage.

    The book also gives some sound advice on stretching and strength training which you can adapt to suit your own body.

    Another book that you might find useful is Daniels running formula by Jack Daniels. He has a kind of points table where he says that 10 miles at x effort equals 5 miles at y effort and assigns points to each run. he then suggests that you measure your training by the number of points rather than the number of miles. I personally found the Pfitzinger book to be a bit more accessible though.

    Nutritionally you'll find yourself better able to sustain your training through high quality food but you've probably been through that with ME and already know what works for you. The closer you are to your ideal weight the better you'll run. Too light and you'll lack the energy/musculature, too heavy is just going to slow you down.

    Good luck!

    P.S. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that you should do speedwork before endurance and actually with a 3:10 target (many won't like me saying this) you can skip the Vo2 Max work altogether. It's not that intervals won't benefit you it's that you'll get more for your effort by focusing on threshold and marathon pace runs. You can keep in touch with your speed and good mechanics by doing strides. All that said I do like 1 or 2 interval sessions coming near to the marathon as it helps make marathon pace feel comfortable.

    P.P.S. Another approach is to simply increase what you did last year. All other things being equal your performance should improve.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 467 ✭✭Mick Rice


    Some seriously good advice here. My only contribution is one that may not really suit given what you've, but in my experience no other single factor will assist you more in reducing your marathon finishing time than increased weekly training volume. Good luck.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 444 ✭✭PVincent


    Thanks guys.
    Plenty to ponder and reflect on...Runners do tweak things in the constant battle to get a PB , however small ...its what we all do …I will digest it all and work something that suits me
    You are right on the diet...I had to get it right to help with the awful illness, and whilst I concentrate on eating pretty much the right stuff , I am not obsessive ...I recognize the benefits for me but also am aware that you can become a little over the top on it ...also aware and recognize the signs if I am overdoing things physically , so again careful on that side .
    I am big into Sports Psychology and as a coach ( my main coaching role was in Hockey) its something that plays a huge role in what I do and how I do it ... the importance of always looking for a positive in any session I do is crucial to a decent and strong mental strength ...
    I am not a believer in setting Time goals , especially in a marathon . So much can go wrong on any given day when we run , that it can be seriously detrimental for the mind and subsequently the body if you suddenly fall behind that target ...and it could be something as simple as a windy or warm day ...
    I did not have a time goal in Dublin but I did have a little Mantra ...the phrase that I chose and stayed with me throughout the 26 miles was ' I will leave nothing out here'...also a rather obscure imagery idea which came from a running friend ' Run like a greyhound ' was a constant relaxation technique throughout ...having the right mindset is one of those things that most people neglect to train , particularly in the marathon ...
    anyhow enough soul baring.
    Thanks again , and thanks Ross and Ray ...you are great to have in Knocklyon Runners for keeping us all training hard ...we are competitive and that drives the sessions...any other takers for Knocklyon Runners


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 954 ✭✭✭W.B. Yeats


    PVincent wrote: »
    Thanks guys.
    Plenty to ponder and reflect on...Runners do tweak things in the constant battle to get a PB , however small ...its what we all do …I will digest it all and work something that suits me
    You are right on the diet...I had to get it right to help with the awful illness, and whilst I concentrate on eating pretty much the right stuff , I am not obsessive ...I recognize the benefits for me but also am aware that you can become a little over the top on it ...also aware and recognize the signs if I am overdoing things physically , so again careful on that side .
    I am big into Sports Psychology and as a coach ( my main coaching role was in Hockey) its something that plays a huge role in what I do and how I do it ... the importance of always looking for a positive in any session I do is crucial to a decent and strong mental strength ...
    I am not a believer in setting Time goals , especially in a marathon . So much can go wrong on any given day when we run , that it can be seriously detrimental for the mind and subsequently the body if you suddenly fall behind that target ...and it could be something as simple as a windy or warm day ...
    I did not have a time goal in Dublin but I did have a little Mantra ...the phrase that I chose and stayed with me throughout the 26 miles was ' I will leave nothing out here'...also a rather obscure imagery idea which came from a running friend ' Run like a greyhound ' was a constant relaxation technique throughout ...having the right mindset is one of those things that most people neglect to train , particularly in the marathon ...
    anyhow enough soul baring.
    Thanks again , and thanks Ross and Ray ...you are great to have in Knocklyon Runners for keeping us all training hard ...we are competitive and that drives the sessions...any other takers for Knocklyon Runners

    I've nothing to offer content wise Peter however I'm in massive agreement with you on how important mental strength is to what we try to do. I imagine mental resilience and positivity is absolutely crucial in the marathon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    W.B. Yeats wrote: »
    I imagine mental resilience and positivity is absolutely crucial in the marathon.
    Indeed. It has a *HUGE* impact.

    It's hard to maintain a good positive mental attitude throughout a Marathon. Many people are absolutely pumped up and hyper in the early stages. I find that it's important to control this and keep your reserves until the later stages.

    It's all too easy to become caught up in the infectious 'buzz' early on, resulting in expending lots of nervous energy. Keep it under wraps - you can expend all the nervous energy you want coming up Nassau St, waving and acknowledging the adulation of your supporters and the public. :cool:


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