Stopped by customs

sinbadtinker

If this is the wrong area/forum for this, please remove/re-assign as appropriate.

Looking for advice on what to do in current situation.
Was stopped recently by Customs people in a foreign reg car. (I shouldn't have stopped or answered questions, but I did)

Officer who conducted interview did not show his ID or give his name (his colleague who waved at me to stop did show ID, but name wasn't visible and name wasn't given)

After asking a few questions, interviewing officer decided that the car was liable for forfeiture and announced he would now seize the car.

As I had my 9 month old baby in the car and felt intimidated by a 3rd customs officer looking around the car (presumably only to ascertain the condition of the car?) and in the window at my baby (and not wanting to be stranded on the side of the road), I drove off (with the officer saying "don't drive off").

Later a letter was delivered to my home stating that the foreign reg car had been seized and the car could be released by making written application (although customs retain the right to not release the car and prosecute me). The officer had also entered a mobile number on the letter (presumably his own mobile number)

A day after this letter arrived, I paid the VRT and put Irish plates on the car.
Now what to do about this letter? Could vehicle (with Irish reg and plates) still be seized? Could I still be prosecuted?

I think the fine payable to release the car (assuming it had actually been physically seized) would have been to pay the VRT and 10% of the OMSP of the car.

Should I call this officer and say that the car is now VRTed? At that point he might add that there is a fine. I wonder, could it be more than the 10% of OMSP? I've heard figures of EUR 5000 being bandied about on other websites.

If I do nothing within a month, then supposedly (under normal circumstances if the car was in the possession of the customs) they would sell it. Can they still do that even though the car has now had the VRT paid on it and has Irish plates? i.e. come along with the police, lift the car and sell it on (even though it subsequently had the VRT paid on it). And, still, they might want to prosecute for being in charge of unregistered foreign car.

A couple of things make me think the attempted seizure (I call it attempted as the officer never took possession of the car. I guess the customs people still see it as a seizure even if they don't physically have the goods in their hands at the moment) was not quite legit. Firstly, the officer who conducted the interview did not state his name or show his Customs officer ID.
Secondly, I think they are meant to deal 1 officer to 1 driver at a time and this was not the case as a 2nd officer was visible to me as he inspected the rear and sides of the car during the interview.
Thirdly, I know the customs people are being heavy handed, but the officer ascertained that the car had been in the country for about 4 months without VRT being paid. Wouldn't that really be a case for a warning (being a 1st offence) that VRT must be paid within a week or that the car be removed from the state within a week? Maybe not, they have the right to be as draconian as they like and the law backs them up. Maybe it does, maybe not. I'll have to look at those finance/customs/excise laws.

I guess someone who's been in a similar situation might have some advice. The letter delivered to me (was not recorded delivery, just dropped through the letter box by hand) is a "notice of seizure" stating that the car was seized (when it wasn't, as I drove off in it).

I guess the phone call to the officer (he left his mobile number on the letter) is the way to go (but that would sort of acknowledge reception of the letter)...

FreudianSlippers

Finance Act 2001 I believe:

(2) An officer in uniform or a member of the Garda Síochána may stop any vehicle for any purpose related to vehicle registration tax or the registration of vehicles in any of the registers established and maintained under Chapter IV of Part II of the Finance Act, 1992

(3) Any person in charge of a moving vehicle shall, at the request of an officer in uniform or a member of the Garda Síochána, stop such vehicle.

(4) Any person in charge of a vehicle shall, whether such vehicle has been stopped by an officer or member of the Garda Síochána under this section, or is already stationary, at the request of an officer or member of the Garda Síochána—

(a) keep such vehicle stationary for such period as is reasonably required to enable an officer or member to exercise any power conferred on such officer or member by section 135 , or

(b) where such vehicle is in the opinion of such officer or member situated in a place unsuitable for the exercise of any power conferred on such officer or member by section 135 , take such vehicle or cause it to be taken to such place as such officer or member may consider suitable for the exercise of such power.

I'm sure driving away from the customs officer will be (or at least ought to be) an offence.

I think you're going to need a solicitor.

dermot_sheehan

s. 135 Finance Act 1992 possession of an unregistered vehicle
s. 1078 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 obstruction of a customs officer.

Revenue offences carry mandatory minimum fines, about €3,000 for each of the above charges. The obstruction offences carries a potential of custody for 12 months summary or 5 years on indictment if tried before a jury. Judge can also decide to disqualify you from driving since it is an offence involving a motor vehicle.

You have a month to claim a vehicle for which a notice of seizure has been delivered, else it is liable to forfeiture. (s. 143 finance act 2001)

Zambia

Freudian is right get a solicitor.

MagicSean

Get a solicitor. If he follows through you are in a lot of trouble, both financially and criminally.

Rew

Get a solicitor, you assumptions on how legit the seizure was are wrong, if they were in uniform they dont need to show their ID and presumably from what you have said you didn't ask for it. They dont need to ell you their names. There not the Gardai, they dont generally give warnings, they take the car and thats it and they have the power do do it, they dont need the Gardai.

Zambia

The OP never said they were in uniform. Considering an ID was shown I don't think it matters. It would be up to the person to ask to examine it further if they did not see the details or wanted to record them.

allyJay

and was the car in the country 4 months?......if so sounds like they were aware of you and gave you ample chance to pay, legally you have to pay vrt within 24 hours. As you've now paid it, you'll likely just get a fine.
Some customs wear uniforms at check points, patrol cars, airports etc, some don't and so they'll see you before you'll see them. you were very lucky they didn't take the car from you there and then, leaving you and your child on the road, which is well within their remit, as it was illegally in the country and you as a permanent Irish resident were not entitled to have without paying the vrt and reregistering it.... that said as far as I am aware he should have identified himself if only out of manners and asked you if you fully understood why the laws you were violating.
Plus were you insured if the car was not on an Irish reg?

allyJay

btw, the customs will be aware you have now paid, it will be on their computer system.

FreudianSlippers

allyJay wrote: »

you were very lucky they didn't take the car from you there and then, leaving you and your child on the road, which is well within their remit

From the sounds of it the Customs Officer told the OP not to drive away but he did anyway.
At least that's what I took from this part:

I drove off (with the officer saying "don't drive off")

Why you would do that is beyond me.

rescue16

Get a solictor and the faster you do the better for yourself. Man you are in big trouble what you did was the same as driving away from a garda checkpoint yikes you are some nutter for driving off . :eek:

allyJay

sorry, my eyes seemed to have skimmed over the bit where the op drove off...obviously not believing it!

rescue16

allyJay wrote: »

sorry, my eyes seemed to have skimmed over the bit where the op drove off...obviously not believing it!

Read it again the op says he/she drove off or am i seeing things. He said "I drove off (with the officer saying "don't drive off) "

TylerIE

sinbadtinker wrote: »

Was stopped recently by Customs people in a foreign reg car. (I shouldn't have stopped or answered questions, but I did)

Officer who conducted interview did not show his ID or give his name (his colleague who waved at me to stop did show ID, but name wasn't visible and name wasn't given)

After asking a few questions, interviewing officer decided that the car was liable for forfeiture and announced he would now seize the car.

As I had my 9 month old baby in the car and felt intimidated by a 3rd customs officer looking around the car (presumably only to ascertain the condition of the car?) and in the window at my baby (and not wanting to be stranded on the side of the road), I drove off (with the officer saying "don't drive off").


A couple of things make me think the attempted seizure (I call it attempted as the officer never took possession of the car. I guess the customs people still see it as a seizure even if they don't physically have the goods in their hands at the moment) was not quite legit. Firstly, the officer who conducted the interview did not state his name or show his Customs officer ID.
Secondly, I think they are meant to deal 1 officer to 1 driver at a time and this was not the case as a 2nd officer was visible to me as he inspected the rear and sides of the car during the interview.
Thirdly, I know the customs people are being heavy handed, but the officer ascertained that the car had been in the country for about 4 months without VRT being paid. Wouldn't that really be a case for a warning (being a 1st offence) that VRT must be paid within a week or that the car be removed from the state within a week? Maybe not, they have the right to be as draconian as they like and the law backs them up. Maybe it does, maybe not. I'll have to look at those finance/customs/excise laws.

When you state you shouldnt have stopped I cant see why you shouldnt stop for a government official.

Im pretty sure that the fact that your not satisfied with their ID (When it was on display), or one or two or three officers are all internal policy matters. These details are not referred to in leglislation - and I imagine that any judge will ignore such an argument if you knew they really were customs officers.

You think they were heavy handed? Someone who is crazy enough to drive away obviously needs more than one officer present.

4 months in the country without VRT being paid is defo cause for seizing. The registration process is supposed to be completed within one month of entering the state. Its up to the driver to make themselves aware of appropriate leglislation.

Id get a solicitor and be thankful you werent pursued by Gardai, arrested and you and the baby either taken to Garda Station for baby to be collected by family member or sent to HSE while you were processed.

sinbadtinker

allyJay wrote: »

btw, the customs will be aware you have now paid, it will be on their computer system.

I wonder if they will connect the old foreign reg to the new Irish reg on their computer system? I guess so, although they might not be looking out for such details.

In any case, the interviewing officer has informed me that it has been passed on to his prosecution team and as such will go to court.

As the seizure notice says, a written claim for the seized car can be made within one month, otherwise the goods are considered to be forfeited to the state.

In such a claim letter a plea/appeal could be made.

The action I could take would be to write the letter to claim the car back (even though the car is still in my possession and VRT has been paid and now displays the Irish registration). And, in that letter, I could plea that I was transporting a sick baby and felt intimidated to have the car taken and be left on the side of the road with a sick baby. In such a state, akin to slight panic, I drove off. At the first opportunity (very soon after), the VRT was paid on the car and the interviewing officer was informed that the VRT was paid.

I wonder could such a letter help in so far as they might settle out of court then? (by way of a hefty fine and striking the case from the list of cases going to court). Maybe not, as they may just want to maximise the prosecution for the VRT + obstruction offences, which by the sound of it could only be done in court and what will be done in court.

Could the problem with such a plea by letter be that such a plea incriminates myself? Maybe, I should just restrict the letter to stating "I hereby claim the vehicle that a notice of seizure has been issued for". And then the rest will be heard in court...

I'm not doing anything quite yet and will seek legal help...

Thanks for the thoughts so far, any more thoughts?

234

Go to a solicitor. I would be thinking more in terms of damage limitaiton at the moment. There is no question of you getting off, so don't worry about self-incrimination, just focus on minimising the punishment. A solicitor will advise.

godtabh

sinbadtinker wrote: »

Could the problem with such a plea by letter be that such a plea incriminates myself? Maybe, I should just restrict the letter to stating "I hereby claim the vehicle that a notice of seizure has been issued for". And then the rest will be heard in court...

Maybe contact a solicitor as it sounds like a very serious offence

Zambia

Yes dont do anything else before you see a brief. You are coming across to me as a toddler playing with a hand grenade.

Owen

allyJay wrote: »

and was the car in the country 4 months?......if so sounds like they were aware of you and gave you ample chance to pay, legally you have to pay vrt within 24 hours. As you've now paid it, you'll likely just get a fine.

That situation has changed significantly. You now have to make an appointment with the NCTS within 7 days of arriving in the country, and then you can drive on your foreign plates until they give you an appointment (Which in my experience was a month later). After you pay your VRT, you have up to 3 days to drive on your old plates before fitting new ones.

RangeR

You will not get legal help here. You are in desperate need of a solicitor. Get one NOW!!!!

How did you think you could drive away from customs officials and get away with it? This will not go well for you.

Bosco boy

Maybe I'm getting this all wrong but hasn't the op presented the car to the customs when he changed the reg of the car to an Irish reg. Surely it should have been flagged on their system that there was a serious issue with the car as a result of the incident. I personally think that if they have accepted payment of vrt in the period in between getting the letter then they have entered a contract and will be hard to follow up on the seizure ( technical one at that). I'm not sure but I was always led to believe that they needed a Garda with them as the do not have the power to stop traffic under the RTA. I could be wrong!

Paulw

Bosco boy wrote: »

I'm not sure but I was always led to believe that they needed a Garda with them as the do not have the power to stop traffic under the RTA. I could be wrong!

You're very wrong there. The Revenue Act is much more powerful than the RTA, and customs do have the power to stop and seize a vehicle. No need for the Gardai to be there at all.

Aside from the payment of the VRT, the OP may be charged with a criminal offence for driving away from the customs officers after being stopped.

A good solicitor is definitely needed, to control the damage. A large fine is highly likely, if lucky.

MagicSean

If the car was technically seized when the op drove off could he be charged with unauthorised taking?