Speeding fine..what will happen?

cojomo2

My old flatmate/friend just received a notice in the post for speeding.

However, she was not driving the car at the time, she had a friend over from scotland at the time and she used the car a couple of times.

So, she will send the notice back with her friends details..question is, will her friend get penalty points and fine, or how does it work?

Thanks

Random

this happened me before. i was driving someone elses car. this is what happened.

1. car owner got notice in the post
2. car owner mailed it back with my info on it
3. i got notice in the post
4. i sent it back accepting the fine
5. i got confirmation that fine was paid and points applied

given that your friend is from scotland it's likely they won't get the points if they have a uk license. they will be kept on their driver record here for if they ever get an irish license.

once your friend sends back the notice they have nothing more to do.

cojomo2

Random wrote: »

this happened me before. i was driving someone elses car. this is what happened.

1. car owner got notice in the post
2. car owner mailed it back with my info on it
3. i got notice in the post
4. i sent it back accepting the fine
5. i got confirmation that fine was paid and points applied

given that your friend is from scotland it's likely they won't get the points if they have a uk license. they will be kept on their driver record here for if they ever get an irish license.

once your friend sends back the notice they have nothing more to do.

Thanks.

She will send back the notice, however, she mailed her friend in Scotland to let her know she will be receiving a fine from the guards ..her mate said to go ahead and give her details, but said she won't be paying it any attention as she seems to think the guards can't do anything...

Now my friend is worried if this happens, because she is the registered owner, it will come back to haunt her if her buddy in Scotland ignores it..?

coylemj

It can't be that easy to offload points, I bet nobody would ever get points on their Irish driving licence if you could give the name of someone in the UK.

Anan1

cojomo2 wrote: »

Thanks.

She will send back the notice, however, she mailed her friend in Scotland to let her know she will be receiving a fine from the guards ..her mate said to go ahead and give her details, but said she won't be paying it any attention as she seems to think the guards can't do anything...

Now my friend is worried if this happens, because she is the registered owner, it will come back to haunt her if her buddy in Scotland ignores it..?

That's not your friends problem, that's between the driver and the authorities here. That being said, i'd advise your friend to put a little more thought into who she lends her car to in future.

cojomo2

Anan1 wrote: »

That's not your friends problem, that's between the driver and the authorities here. That being said, i'd advise your friend to put a little more thought into who she lends her car to in future.

Yeah agree, she was done for 56 in a 50..and the registered owner( my friend) was actually in the car with her when she was caught.

Her friend would pay up etc only she is convinced it is unnecessary to do so, as there will be no repercussions if she does not.

Time will tell..

Anan1

cojomo2 wrote: »

Her friend would pay up etc only she is convinced it is unnecessary to do so, as there will be no repercussions if she does not.

Personally, i'd defer to the wishes of the car owner in a situation like that. Be thankful she didn't crash the car, i'd say it'd have been fun trying to get the excess back..;)

cojomo2

Anan1 wrote: »

Personally, i'd defer to the wishes of the car owner in a situation like that. Be thankful she didn't crash the car, i'd say it'd have been fun trying to get the excess back..;)

Well, the car owner hasn't insisted that the driver pay up...and the driver hasn't refused to pay up..she said she will pay up no prob if her friend ( the owner) wants her to, but insisting it's not necessary ..so the owner isn't sure what to do..at this point she is just sending the fine back with the driver details on it..

Our man in Havana

If the person in Scotland ignores the notice the Gardaí may think, that the keeper simply is off loading points and then come back at the keeper. Be very careful.

cojomo2

Our man in Havana wrote: »

If the person in Scotland ignores the notice the Gardaí may think, that the keeper simply is off loading points and then come back at the keeper. Be very careful.

Yes, but if this is not the case, surely the keeper has nothing to worry about..

Grass between the tracks

The Gardai may think you are lying and demand proof that they were driving. They may also ask for proof of insurance for your Scottish friend. If you can't produce the insurance they will charge you with permitting no insurance, perjury. They have seen this all before and are well wise to it.

cojomo2

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

The Gardai may think you are lying and demand proof that they were driving. They may also ask for proof of insurance for your Scottish friend. If you can't produce the insurance they will charge you with permitting no insurance, perjury. They have seen this all before and are well wise to it.

Ok first of all, it's not me..
Proof of insurance, hardly, considering it was the Scottish persons insurance that was covering them, not the insurance that the owner of the car had ..so if they want proof of insurance, it will hardly be the car owners job to show proof..

leahcim

Proof of insurance, hardly, considering it was the Scottish persons insurance that was covering them, not the insurance that the owner of the car had ..so if they want proof of insurance, it will hardly be the car owners job to show proof..

It will hardly be the car owners job to show proof

If it came to it it would be the car owners responsability to show the person the lent their car to had insurance for the car.

This could get very messy for your friend. If a person allows another person drive their car its the registered owners responsability to make sure the third party driver is insured. The judge could easily ask your friend to supply a letter from the insurance company of the scotish person stating they they were insured to drive your irish friends car on the dates in question or from your friends insurance company stating that they temporarily added the scotish person to their policy.

CiniO

leahcim wrote: »

If it came to it it would be the car owners responsability to show the person the lent their car to had insurance for the car.

Could you tell us where can we find such a requirement?

AFAIK if I'm lending my car to someone I have to make sure that such person is insured to drive it.
I understand it, that if such person shows me her policy which states that it covers driving other cars - that's enough.

But how now, after few weeks or so, can I have a proof of that?

Are you saying, that I should keep all documentation of insurance cover for any person that was ever driving my car?
I don't think there is any requirement like that.

Our man in Havana

If it was that easy, everyone would be off loading points to random people in the UK phone books.

CiniO

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

The Gardai may think you are lying and demand proof that they were driving.

Wait a second.
They send you a letter that someone was speeding in your car on certain place, date and time.
You send them a statement who it was, and give that person's details.

If they (Gardai) think you are lying now, is it not up to Gardai to proof that it was you driving.

AFAIK anyone is considered not guilty until blame is proven. Or am I wrong here?

Our man in Havana

Say for example, a notice comes to me and I decide to name some random person in the UK. Gardaí send a fine to the UK person. UK person either bins it or sends it back saying they were not driving.
The Gardaí will now be after me to prove who was driving or they will charge me with perjury. Of course you will be back to the old Irish chestnut of the registered owner is always assumed to be driving lark.

Carawaystick

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The Gardaí will now be after me to prove who was driving or they will charge me with perjury.

If willie ODea can lie under oath and say i forgot and not get charged with perjury, I'd imagine it would be very hard for the cops to proove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were lying about not driving, especially if you weren't.

leahcim

Are you saying, that I should keep all documentation of insurance cover for any person that was ever driving my car?
I don't think there is any requirement like that.

No, but it would be common enough practice for an insurance company to be asked to supply a letter stating the status of the persons insurance at a certain time in a certain country.

If they (Gardai) think you are lying now, is it not up to Gardai to proof that it was you driving.

I would have thought so as well.

God knows what the Judge might do. He/She might take it that because the Scotish person did not pay the fine they are denying that they were driving and persue the cars owner instead.

If it was me and my friend in Scotland was driving and not willing to pay the fine I would give them the money to pay it. The alternative is going to court. I would probably loose and be forced to pay the fine and double penalty points.

CiniO

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Say for example, a notice comes to me and I decide to name some random person in the UK. Gardaí send a fine to the UK person. UK person either bins it or sends it back saying they were not driving.
The Gardaí will now be after me to prove who was driving or they will charge me with perjury. Of course you will be back to the old Irish chestnut of the registered owner is always assumed to be driving lark.

If that person in UK sends it back with statement that he/she wasn't driving, then gardai have two statements (yours and his/hers) contradicting each other. That's a perfect circumstances to do a further investigation, and probably assume you were lying.

But if that person bins that notice, then I don't think gardai can do much about it.
They have no proof that your statement was not true.

The only way that comes to my mind how they can proof otherwise, is by getting the picture from the speed-camera with drivers face on it. If it's the face of car registered owner which stated it was someone from UK driving it, then such person can easily be charged for both speeding and making false statements.

But I really doubt they can do anything if they don't have a picture with face on it.

Scottie99

It happened to me. My father was caught by a speed camera in my car and I received the fine in the post. I gave them all his details (Scotland), he called the Police here and said he wouldn't be paying. End of story......although he doesn't drive my car over here now!;)

CiniO

Scottie99 wrote: »

It happened to me. My father was caught by a speed camera in my car and I received the fine in the post. I gave them all his details (Scotland), he called the Police here and said he wouldn't be paying. End of story......although he doesn't drive my car over here now!;)

That makes sense now.

You gave gardai details of a person who committed offence. And now it's their problem to prosecute that person, assuming your statement was right. If they suspect your statement was not right, it's up to them to prove it.

MagicSean

The owner can be required to produce insurance under section 69 (2) of the Road Traffic Act 1961.

Very simple
- owner informs the fine folks who was driving
- owner also gets prrof from driver they were insured on the car
- owner then forgets all about it

All this talk of we can all do similar if it was so easy is arse biscuits as in this case someone from Scotland was actually driving the car and did commit the offence.

cojomo2

RoverJames wrote: »

Very simple
- owner informs the fine folks who was driving
- owner also gets prrof from driver they were insured on the car
- owner then forgets all about it

All this talk of we can all do similar if it was so easy is arse biscuits as in this case someone from Scotland was actually driving the car and did commit the offence.

this part is not necessary though, unless specifically asked for it, which is unlikely .

question though: Most Irish policies come standard with 3rd party driving over other cars with the owners permission, I assume its the same in the UK...but does this 3rd party driving of other cars extend to when you are out of the country, i.e in this case having UK insurance that covers 3rd party driving of other cars, but driving others cars in Ireland?

cojomo2

cojomo2 wrote: »

this part is not necessary though, unless specifically asked for it, which is unlikely .

I agree, but folks in this thread seem to think it will be asked for

Our man in Havana

Only a UK insurance company can answer that. Personally I would doubt any insurance outside the state would want to cover use of foreign vehicles.

Your friend can expect a knock on the door according to this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056263798

Our man in Havana

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Only a UK insurance company can answer that. Personally I would doubt any insurance outside the state would want to cover use of foreign vehicles.

Your friend can expect a knock on the door according to this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056263798

That clears it up nicely

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Say for example, a notice comes to me and I decide to name some random person in the UK. Gardaí send a fine to the UK person. UK person either bins it or sends it back saying they were not driving.
The Gardaí will now be after me to prove who was driving or they will charge me with perjury. Of course you will be back to the old Irish chestnut of the registered owner is always assumed to be driving lark.

cojomo2

RoverJames wrote: »

That clears it up nicely

Cool, thanks. Judging by the title of that post in the emergency services section, I think someone thinks that it's in fact me just trying to offload points to someone abroad..it's not...anyway, my friend has nothing to worry about, the pic will show both her and her buddy from scotland ..as they were both in the car, but the scottish girl was driving. I've linked her to this to have a read, she will probably panic at the thought of a Grada calling around to her house to investigate further...but like I said, she has nothing to worry about.

I really find it hard to believe that every time a registered owner nominates someone other than themselves as driving at the time the speeding offence took place will have a garda call around with a photo to see if it looks like the registered owner or not? If this is the case, it must be fairly new, and take up a lot of garda time. More likely , this is the procedure if it is suspected that the registered owner is lying, and was in fact driving.

Our man in Havana

A foreign nomination will trigger this procedure.

In the UK where someone sticks down their foreign friend, it sets off alarm bells and triggers a visit from the police who demand documentary proof of insurance for the nominated driver. If that can't be produced it is assumed this person was not insured and a charge of permitting no insurance is made against the person who owns the car. This attracts 6 to 8 penalty points and a large fine.

cojomo2

Our man in Havana wrote: »

A foreign nomination will trigger this procedure.

In the UK where someone sticks down their foreign friend, it sets off alarm bells and triggers a visit from the police who demand documentary proof of insurance for the nominated driver. If that can't be produced it is assumed this person was not insured and a charge of permitting no insurance is made against the person who owns the car. This attracts 6 to 8 penalty points and a large fine.

but are a lot of policies in the UK not 'open driving'..so anyone over 25 with a full license is insured on the car? If so, your own policy will be proof enough.

Wolverine_1999

Sure the speeding fine only shows a picture of the registration? Are the new speed vans (GoArse) taking a picture of who is driving also?

Our man in Havana

They take a picture of the whole car. They crop the image so that only the reg is sent to the owner. If they want to see the full image they can ask.

cojomo2

Wolverine_1999 wrote: »

Sure the speeding fine only shows a picture of the registration? Are the new speed vans (GoArse) taking a picture of who is driving also?

I think so, but can they be that accurate/good quality, I think is just a printout of a still from a camcorder type device..

Our man in Havana

cojomo2 wrote: »

but are a lot of policies in the UK not 'open driving'..so anyone over 25 with a full license is insured on the car? If so, your own policy will be proof enough.

In that case yes.

Eru

cojomo2 wrote: »

Ok first of all, it's not me..
Proof of insurance, hardly, considering it was the Scottish persons insurance that was covering them,

You cant drive an Irish car in Ireland on UK insurance unless its temporary insurance to bring the car across. That is not the case here so now your saying the car was being driven uninsured. Theres an offence in that for the owner. I drive in the UK and mainland europe all the time and its always as an additional driver on the owners insurance as my insurance covers me to drive abroad on MY CAR only.

In regards the fine, the owner need not fear what happens in court but should consider that her Scottish friend is leaving all this recorded against her car.

Mud sticks.

Eru

cojomo2 wrote: »

but are a lot of policies in the UK not 'open driving'..so anyone over 25 with a full license is insured on the car? If so, your own policy will be proof enough.

Not all policies are that simple, some demand a license from the country in question while others require the additional driver to have their own car and policy (some in that country).

It depends on the T&C and more importantly, fine print.

Its similar to people having open drive on their own 1.0 Micra and thinking its fine to then drive a 2.5l sports car but most (all policies I have seen) have a requirement that the second car be also insured under a different persons name (to avoid someone simple owning a dozen cars but only insuring 1) and also that you can only drive a car equal in engine size to the main insured car (ie to avoid exactly this scenario).

Insurance companies are not stupid and have allowed for every scenario

Esel

Eru wrote: »

Its similar to people having open drive on their own 1.0 Micra and thinking its fine to then drive a 2.5l sports car

Surely you mean 'driving of other vehicles'?

but most (all policies I have seen) have a requirement that the second car be also insured under a different persons name (to avoid someone simple owning a dozen cars but only insuring 1) and also that you can only drive a car equal in engine size to the main insured car (ie to avoid exactly this scenario).

All policies you have seen? Seriously? I would have thought (from discussions in this forum) that most policies do not make any stipulation about the engine size of the other vehicle, and that some policies stipulate that there must be a separate policy in force on the driven vehicle.

All policies do however stipulate that you cannot be the owner of the other vehicle.